Nazgûl in the Prancing Pony?

[Gordis]

"Sorry, I can't see well by daylight. Please allow my horse to look at it" - From Khamul's Westron phrase-book.

Originally Posted by Attalus

the fact, I must insist upon, that the Nazgul could not see without their horses.

That is by day, not at night. Here is the quote:

'Can the Riders see?' asked Merry. 'I mean, they seem usually to have used their noses rather than their eyes, smelling for us, if smelling is the right word, at least in the daylight. But you made us lie down flat when you saw them down below; and now you talk of being seen, if we move.'
'I was too careless on the hill-top,' answered Strider. [...] They themselves do not see the world of light as we do, but our shapes cast shadows in their minds, which only the noon sun destroys; and in the dark they perceive many signs and forms that are hidden from us: then they are most to be feared. And at all times they smell the blood of living things, desiring and hating it. Senses, too, there are other than sight or smell.

So the nazgul, even by day, can see the misty shapes of people - I guess exactly in the same way as Sam with the Ring on was able to see orcs at Cirith Ungol:

Then he put it on. [...] At once he was aware that hearing was sharpened while sight was dimmed[/B], but otherwise than in Shelob's lair. All things about him now were not dark but vague; while he himself was there in a grey hazy world, alone, like a small black solid rock [...]
He heard [...] deafening, roaring in his ears, the crash of the feet and the rending clamour of the Orcs before him. He shrank against the cliff. But they marched up like a phantom company, grey distorted figures in a mist, only dreams of fear with pale flames in their hands.

It exactly matches the description of nazgul sight in the Hunt for the Ring texts:

The Nazgûl found one another easily, since they were quickly aware of a companion presence, and could hear the cries over great distances. They could see one another also from far away, even by day when to them a Nazgûl was the one clearly visible thing in a mist.RC p.164

In day time, the nazgul sight was obscured by heavy mist - but at night it was not so, and they could see even more than humans (see the first quote) + they smelled living blood + had "other senses."

There was nothing to prevent the nazgul from operating at night in a lightless room.

Also, all this story about the Dunlanding and his maps and lists told in UT, implies that the nazgul saw enough of the World of Light to be able to read! Maybe they could not read by daylight, but at night certainly.

I think Bill and the Southron tore up the bolsters and mat in frustration at having to bring bad news to their very, very scarey masters.

As I said, I don't believe, I can't believe, that the nazgul would remain away from the Inn while they sent some untrustworthy ruffians to get the One Ring. I am sure they would be there as well.

[The Dread Pirate Roberts]

A few reasons I don't think the Nazgul attacked the Inn:

1. There weren't more than a couple Nazgul in Bree at the time. Some (3 or 4) were still in or near the Shire. Others were apparently south of Bree watching the roads, bridges, and Weathertop. At the Council of Elrond we learn that there were two riders who went to Bree, probably dispatched from the southern group of 5 or 6.

2. The horses and ponies were released secretly. Nobody heard a thing. Nazgul are likely to have scared the animals to the point of neighing and causing a ruckus.

3. The Nazgul were drawn to The Ring. How could they possibly get the wrong room? Unlikely that they would, and even if they did why wouldn't they continue searching the Inn. Why stop at one room?

4. Aragorn's statement is unambiguous. He could be wrong, but more often than not when one of Tolkien's characters says a thing, it's correct.

'What will happen?' said Merry. 'Will they attack the inn?'
'No, I think not,' said Strider. 'They are not all here yet. and in any case that is not their way. In dark and loneliness they are strongest; they will not openly attack a house where there are lights and many people - not until they are desperate, not while all the long leagues of Eriador still lie before us. But their power is in terror, and already some in Bree are in their clutch. They will drive these wretches to some evil work: Ferny, and some of the strangers, and, maybe, the gatekeeper too. They had words with Harry at Westgate on Monday. I was watching them. He was white and shaking when they left him.'

[Attalus]

Originally Posted by Gordis;632141
That is [B

by day[/B], not at night. Here is the quote:



So the nazgul, even by day, can see the misty shapes of people - I guess exactly in the same way as Sam with the Ring on was able to see orcs at Cirith Ungol:


It exactly matches the description of nazgul sight in the Hunt for the Ring texts:

In day time, the nazgul sight was obscured by heavy mist - but at night it was not so, and they could see even more than humans (see the first quote) + they smelled living blood + had "other senses."

There was nothing to prevent the nazgul from operating at night in a lightless room.

I quite agree that they could see dimly, esppecially at night, but "the blood of living creatures," except from their myrmidons, would have been quite absent from that room. Why would they enter the lighted Inn, when all they had to do was wait for the inevitable emergence of the Ring and the coming of real night, with more of their fellows.? It seems a childish waste of energy to crawl o=into a room they knew was empty, and possibly trapped, to smash up some bolsters.

[sisterandcousinandaunt]

*pokes Rian hello and disappears again*

[Rían]

Hey, what was that? *looks around*

Oh hello, sis!

Originally Posted by Gordis

Do you understand what a can of worms it is?
People often argue to death over it.

LOL! Too true ...

(now who was the father of Gil-galad ... )

[Rían]

Originally Posted by Gordis

"Sorry, I can't see well by daylight. Please allow my horse to look at it" - From Khamul's Westron phrase-book.

Khamul to horse: "OK, one stamp if it's a hobbit, two stamps if it's a human, and three stamps if it's a ring!"

Originally Posted by Attalus

It seems a childish waste of energy to crawl o=into a room they knew was empty, and possibly trapped, to smash up some bolsters.

It was their frustrated inner interior decorator coming out - they thought that the decor in the Prancing Pony was just too awful for words!

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by The Dread Pirate Roberts

A few reasons I don't think the Nazgul attacked the Inn:

1. There weren't more than a couple Nazgul in Bree at the time. Some (3 or 4) were still in or near the Shire. Others were apparently south of Bree watching the roads, bridges, and Weathertop. At the Council of Elrond we learn that there were two riders who went to Bree, probably dispatched from the southern group of 5 or 6.

There were indeed 2 nazgul in Bree this night. The rest were more than a day ride away (RC). That's why they couldn't surround the inn and search it thoroughly or attack it openly and kill everyone. But why couldn't 2 nazgul sneak into the empty ground-floor room at night?

Originally Posted by The Dread Pirate Roberts

2. The horses and ponies were released secretly. Nobody heard a thing. Nazgul are likely to have scared the animals to the point of neighing and causing a ruckus.

I agree that the horses were certainly stolen by the ruffians, not the nazgul. The participation of the gatekeeper was also needed. Harry Goatleaf opened the Gates to lead the animals out of Bree.

Originally Posted by The Dread Pirate Roberts

3. The Nazgul were drawn to The Ring. How could they possibly get the wrong room? Unlikely that they would,

It were certainly Bill Ferny and the Southerner who learned exactly what room had been given to the hobbits. The hobbits left their things there before coming to the common room. But for Aragorn, they would have been sleeping there all right. It was not the nazgul's sense for the Ring that led the night visitors to that particular window.

Originally Posted by The Dread Pirate Roberts

and even if they did, why wouldn't they continue searching the Inn. Why stop at one room?

You realise, DPR, that this question remains unanswered even if you suppose that the robbery were perpetrated by Ferny and the Dunlanding. The ruffians had easy access into the inn, by day or by night. The Southerner STAYED there. He could go around without causing any suspicion, and, if caught, he could pretend he was looking for the loo.

Originally Posted by The Dread Pirate Roberts

4. Aragorn's statement is unambiguous. He could be wrong, but more often than not when one of Tolkien's characters says a thing, it's correct.

But he was practically correct. The nazgul didn't attack the inn. Nobody troubled them in Aragorn's room. And the ruffians were CERTAINLY involved in the night robbery - both in the stables and in hobbit's rooms

Originally Posted by Attalus

"the blood of living creatures," except from their myrmidons, would have been quite absent from that room....It seems a childish waste of energy to crawl into a room they knew was empty, and possibly trapped, to smash up some bolsters.

Thanks to you, I learned a new English word: "myrmidon"

Remember Crickhollow? Three nazgul waited in ambush by the door of an EMPTY house, then forced the door open and rushed in. And one of these three was Khamul who (we are told) sensed the Ring better than seven of the Nine. So the two Bree nazgul couldn't sense living blood and couldn't sense the Ring (or absence thereof) from outside. To know the house at Crickhollow or the room in the Pony were empty, they had to get inside.

Getting inside had an additional advantage for the nazgul. Likely the ir senses could tell them that the Ring HAD BEEN in this very room some time ago: (some sort of stale ring smell )

they find Crickhollow at night, but do not attack though [Khamûl] is aware that the Ring has been, or is still, there.- RC p.165

Originally Posted by Attalus

Why would they enter the lighted Inn, when all they had to do was wait for the inevitable emergence of the Ring and the coming of real night, with more of their fellows.?

They didn't enter the lighted inn and they did wait for the night, didn't they? All their fellows were too far away to come to Bree this very night. Sure the Ring would emerge from Bree eventually - but why not try something in Bree - like to go and check the rooms they knew were allocated to the hobbits? It was no desperate move (yet).

Khamul to horse: "OK, one stamp if it's a hobbit, two stamps if it's a human, and three stamps if it's a ring!"

And snort if it is Aragorn son of Arathorn, the wannabe King of Arnor and Gondor.

[Attalus]

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

Khamul to horse: "OK, one stamp if it's a hobbit, two stamps if it's a human, and three stamps if it's a ring!"

It was their frustrated inner interior decorator coming out - they thought that the decor in the Prancing Pony was just too awful for words!

Well, knowing JRRT, it was probably Late Victorian, which was, as everybody knows, the Nadir of Interior Design. Bolsters, indeed!

[The Dread Pirate Roberts]

So Gordis, it seems to be your stance that the answer to who raided the inn, the Nazgul or their human agents, is both. Am I understanding you correctly?

If that's the case, I'm less inclined to disagree. Because although it is a near-certainty that the humans were involved, there is little evidence regarding the two Nazgul pro or con.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by The Dread Pirate Roberts

So Gordis, it seems to be your stance that the answer to who raided the inn, the Nazgul or their human agents, is both. Am I understanding you correctly?

If that's the case, I'm less inclined to disagree. Because although it is a near-certainty that the humans were involved, there is little evidence regarding the two Nazgul pro or con.

Yes my answer is BOTH in the Inn, only ruffians in the stables.

As for evidence for the nazgul involvement, there is this quote from RC "Hunt for the Ring:

In Marquette MSS 4/2/36 (The Hunt for the Ring) it is said that the three Black Riders who had been sent to Weathertop and told to ride back along the Road reached Bree at dusk [on 29 September], and soon learn from the Isengard spy of the events in the Inn, and guess the presence of the Ring. One is sent to the [Witch-king].... [He] is waylaid by Dúnedain and driven away does not reach [the Witch-king] until the next day.... [The other two] foiled in their attempt to capture Merry make plans for attack on the Inn at night.. .. The Inn attacked by the two Riders in early hours before dawn. Crickhollow attacked at about the same time.... Both attacks fail. [The two Riders in Bree] go off in haste to find [the Witch-king] to report that Bearer has gone (without waiting for further news). [The three from Crickhollow] ride down the Buckland Gate and make also for Andrath...The Nazgûl are thus all assembled at Andrath. [The Witch-king] is exceedingly wroth

Attalus, however says that "the Hunt" is non-canon and thus shouldn't be taken into account. I disagree.

You know, guys, that there is a whole genre of fanfiction called a gap-filler? It is when the author of the fic never alters any of the canonic facts, dates etc., but only fills the gaps.
The "Hunt for the Ring" (partly published in UT and RC) is just that - a gapfiller, only written by Tolkien himself in order to explain the enemy part of the story: how it happened that the Nine terrible nazgul failed to seize 4 small hobbits. It was a difficult task, but Tolkien did manage rather well.
It does explain a lot of things.

[The Dread Pirate Roberts]

Good call, Gordis. I missed/forgot that quote from Hunt. (btw, what's RC?)

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by The Dread Pirate Roberts

(btw, what's RC?)

Tolkien Reader's companion by Hammond and Scull
http://www.amazon.com/Lord-Rings-Rea...3491746&sr=1-1

[Alcuin]

Originally Posted by Attalus

I would be more inclined to believe this charming version except for the fact, I must insist upon, that the Nazgul could not see without their horses. ...

I don’t recall anyone saying that the Nazgûl were blind, just that they couldn’t see well, and that the noonday sun blocked their vision entirely. The shapes of the living cast shadows or images for them, at the least. I think that Sam’s experience in the Pass of Cirith Ungol is probably a good guide to what the Ringwraiths could see: Sam wasn’t blind, he just couldn’t see the real (non-shadow) world well.

[Attalus]

Originally Posted by Gordis

Attalus, however says that "the Hunt" is non-canon and thus shouldn't be taken into account. I disagree.

You know, even if I did consider "The Hunt for the Ring" as Canon, which I do not, the noun "attack" has several meanings, such as:

9. the act of attacking; onslaught; assault.
10. a military offensive against an enemy or enemy position.

The Nazgul could be considering attacking "The Prancing Pony" by sending their minions (Bill and the Southron) into it with the intent to cause harm to the inhabitants. Napoleon's "Attack on Hougoumont" at Waterloo certainly didn't include him riding up to the walls of the Chateau on Marengo and directing operations, far less crawling into a window and fighting the Grenadier Guards.

[sisterandcousinandaunt]

Well, it wouldn't have taken much inside info to find the room the out of town hobbits were staying in. First of all, they were staying in the hobbit wing.

[Coffeehouse]

It's a tough one to call, but I still agree with Gordis here. I can't see the Nazgûl being that incompetent. They would have done this themselves.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Attalus

the noun "attack" has several meanings, such as:

9. the act of attacking; onslaught; assault.
10. a military offensive against an enemy or enemy position.

The Nazgul could be considering attacking "The Prancing Pony" by sending their minions (Bill and the Southron) into it with the intent to cause harm to the inhabitants.

OK.
Yet Aragorn in a canonic text replied "NO" to the question "Will they attack the Inn tonight?"
So from your definition of "attack" it follows that Aragorn was wrong anyway!

[Attalus]

As JRRT frquently commented, none of his characters are omniscient.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Attalus

As JRRT frquently commented, none of his characters are omniscient.

Exactly.