Gondolin or Nargothrond?

[arvedui_last_king]

Originally Posted by Lady Marion Magdalena

Ah but we never really get a full description of Nargothrond

I agree. Tolkien was probably too engrossed in the tragic story of Turin to fully describe Nargothrond. And remember, the warriors of Nargothrond were the only ever to invade Angband (Flinding/Gwindor in the Nirnaeth Arnoediad)

[Sister Golden Hair]

It is likely that Nargothrond looked a great deal like Menegroth since Thingol told Finrod of the caverns of Narog and Finrod wished to fashion Nargothrond after the mansions of Menegroth.

[CrazySquirrel]

Living in caves seems more Sindar-like, doesn't it? Thingol, Thranduil...

Nor typical for the Noldor.

[Rían]

Originally Posted by Gordis

Why is Fingon better than Turgon?

I think Turgon hid from his troubles, and Fingon went and met them head on. One of my favorite parts in all of Tolkien is where Fingon faces almost certain death but goes off, alone, to rescue his good friend Maedhros anyway, because it's the right thing to do. And I just lost a lot of respect for Turgon after reading the Fall of Gondolin. He should have led his people, but didn't.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally Posted by CrazySquirrel

Living in caves seems more Sindar-like, doesn't it? Thingol, Thranduil...

Nor typical for the Noldor.

True. Tolkien mentions that I believe in the appendices somewhere. Saying something to the effect of: it was not the nature of the Elves nor by choice for them to live underground, but due to the enemy,especially in the First Age. They preferred the the wide open fields, trees and grass, and most of all; the stars.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

I think Turgon hid from his troubles, and Fingon went and met them head on. One of my favorite parts in all of Tolkien is where Fingon faces almost certain death but goes off, alone, to rescue his good friend Maedhros anyway, because it's the right thing to do. And I just lost a lot of respect for Turgon after reading the Fall of Gondolin. He should have led his people, but didn't.

That's a bit unfair. I haven't read the Fall of Gondolin so what you say may be true from there but remember the Nirnaeth. He led his people away from the battle field where others may not have done. This undoubtedly saved his people.

[CrazySquirrel]

I agree with TD. Turgon had redeeming qualities. He welcomed Tuor and gave him the hand of his only daughter without much fuss, not like the mean Thingol!

[Sister Golden Hair]

I have to agree with Rian to a point. As I said in an earlier post, although Turgon was not a bad person or king, he did what some would consider turning his back on the Noldor and the troubles of Beleriand. The Nirneath is the only instance of where Gondolin became involved in the Wars of Beleriand. At the end, he became arrogant and prideful and forsook the words of Ulmo. But I have to agree with you CS that he wasn't that meany Thingol.

[Rían]

Oh, Turgon definitely had redeeming qualities - I'm not saying he didn't. I'm just saying that I think Fingon was a better guy.

TD - you just GOTTA read the Fall of Gondolin! One of my favorite bits of Tolkien. Then you might see what I mean about Turgon. I just think he could have gone out leading his people, instead of the way he did ... (I'm not saying how he did, so you'll be tempted to read it and find out! )

I'm not particularly fond of Thingol - is anyone, for that matter? (except Melian ... )

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Turgon wasn't the only one of the Noldor to have turned his back on what the Valar said to be fair. The reason the Noldor were in ME was because Fëanor hadn't listened to the Valar and nor did the Noldor.

[Lady Marion Magdalena]

I think the trouble with Thingol is that the story leaves him in la-la-land with Melian and then we don't really get back to him till things start going wrong for his character.

He ruled succesfully in Middle Earth for thousands of years that we don't hear anything about. So he probably had quite a lot of redeeming qualities, they just weren't developed or told about within the story.

[Rían]

I"m sure you're right, Maggie, but it's just fun to bash him!

[Maedhros]

From the Lays of Beleriand:Lay of Leithian Canto VI

To northward, where that stream yet young
more slender flowed, below the tongue
of foam-splashed land that Ginglith pens
when her brief golden torrent ends
and joins the Narog, there they wade.
Now swiftest journey thence they made
to Nargothrond’s sheer terraces
and dim gigantic palaces.
They came beneath a sickle moon
to doors there darkly hung and hewn
with posts and lintels of ponderous stone
and timbers huge. Now open thrown
were gaping gates, and in they strode
where Felagund on throne abode.

Also from the Lays of Beleriand

In the verses describing Nargothrond the Lay of Leithian looks back to and echoes The Children of Húrin; compare

Doors there darkly dim gigantic
were hewn in the hillside; huge their timbers
and their posts and lintels of ponderous stone (p. 68, 1828 - 30)

with

Nargothrond’s sheer terraces
and dim gigantic palaces (1774-5)

and

doors there darkly hung and hewn
with posts and lintels of ponderous stone
and timbers huge. (1777-9)

I have mentioned earlier (pp. 104, 108) the drawing and watercolour of the entrance to Nargothrond. The drawing is inscribed ‘Lyme 1928’ (a summer holiday at Lyme Regis in Dorset) and the watercolour was very likely done at the same time: thus a few months after the writing of Canto VI of the Lay of Leithian. In both are seen the bare Hills of the Hunters beyond (with bare tops bitten bleak and raw, 1735), and in the watercolour Nargothrond’s sheer terraces (1774); but neither picture suggests that the entrance was hid and veiled (1704), by trees o’ershadowed dim (1707) - a feature of the description that goes back to the Tale of Turámbar (‘the doors of the caves... were cunningly concealed by trees’, II. 81).

IMHO, it is silly to compare the beauty of Nargothrond and Gondolin. If you look at the evolution of ME, you will notice that the first thing written about it is the Fall of Gondolin, when Gondolin is already a place of magnificent beauty, whereas the the forerunner of Nargothrond is a mere cave. Why is it that whereas Gondolin, is always remarkably described since the earliest of time, Nargothrond is not, and it has only a very vague description in the Lays of Beleriand? Isn't it strange that while JRRT delighted many of us with his great description of places in ME, he did not bother with Nargothrond. Wow.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Maedhros

Why is it that whereas Gondolin, is always remarkably described since the earliest of time, Nargothrond is not, and it has only a very vague description in the Lays of Beleriand? Isn't it strange that while JRRT delighted many of us with his great description of places in ME, he did not bother with Nargothrond. Wow.

Perhaps the reason for that is because Tolkien already stated that Nargothrond was fashioned after the mansions of Menegroth. The fact that Nargothrond was wrought from the caverns of Narog does not mean that it was not magnificent and beautiful. As I said earlier; in spite of the beauty of any of these kingdoms, they are only as good as the kings that rule them. So, even though Tolkien described Gondolin in more depth, its king was not depicted as well as Nargothrond's.

[Forfirith]

I would save Gondolin because it recalls Tirion in Valinor whereas Nargothrond could be rebuilt by Dwarves and it makes me think of Thranduil's caves in Mirkwood.

[Elemmírë]

I'm with RÃ*an here. Save Gondolin, but replace Turgon with anyone (preferably Fingon).

I would have once been sympathetic to Nargothrond, but 1) I don't like caves, and 2) those idiots really deserved everything that came to them.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

What about Finrod?

[Sister Golden Hair]

and 2) those idiots really deserved everything that came to them.

Yeah, what about Finrod?

You are in so much trouble miss.

[Elemmírë]

Originally Posted by Sister Golden Hair

Yeah, what about Finrod?

You are in so much trouble miss.

My apologies, SGH.

"Idiots" refers to everyone in Nargothrond except Finrod, Edrahil, and the others that followed.

Turning on your own king like that...

[Blackheart]

Gondolin... because the easiest way to do it is to bump off a snot nosed son of a "dark" elf...


Though I'd really rather be saving Angband...