His Dark Materials - Page 3

BeardofPants · 10-18-2007, 04:12 AM

I'm also envious... the first book is just amazing in terms of its scope & imagination.

Acalewia · 10-19-2007, 12:14 PM

So I heard from a certian pants master and frog mod

BeardofPants · 10-19-2007, 01:22 PM

And I'm NEVER wrong.

*dances the I-AM-SO-RIGHT-I-AM-SOOOO-RIGHT chicken dance

***Earniel*** · 10-19-2007, 01:27 PM

Um. Right. What she said.

I'll be fair and say I did have a tiny number of problems with the trilogy. But on scenery, ideas and imagination, it was magnificent.

GrayMouser · 10-19-2007, 02:27 PM

Acalewia- Warning!! SPOILERS!!!

I loved the first book, enjoyed the second and was disappointed with the third, but then I read them at age 50- I would have totally loved them at 12, in the first awakening of my militant atheism.

But, to my thinking, there is a serious moral flaw running right through the heart of the Trilogy, which becomes manifest at the end of the first book. Lord Asriel severs Roger Parslow from his daemon order to release the energy needed to open the gates between worlds. In Lyra's world, this is the worst of crimes; far worse than murder because it destroys the soul- yet even after that, through the next two books, the characters take the side of Asriel and his war to overthrow Authority and establish the Republic of Heaven. Asriel is seen as personally corrupted by his actions, but his cause is still seen as righteous.

Wordsworth wrote of the French Revolution:

OH! pleasant exercise of hope and joy!
For mighty were the auxiliars which then stood
Upon our side, we who were strong in love!
Bliss was it in that dawn to be alive,
But to be young was very heaven!--

And that is Pullman's attitude- but the Fall of the Bastille was followed by the Reign of Terror; the Storming of the Winter Palace by the Gulag; the Long March by the Great Leap Forward and the Cultural Revolution; Year Zero by the Killing Fields.

Lenin said "You can't make an omelette without breaking eggs", but Dosteovsky wrote that if you could produce Paradise on Earth by torturing a single child, it would still be wrong; Ursula LeGuin took the same view in "The Ones Who Walk Away From Omelas".

In "1984" Winston Smith is forced to listen to a recording of himself vowing to do anything to overthrow Big Brother- even throw acid in the face of a child. O'Brian, the Inner Part inquisitor, then asks him what the difference is between him and the system he is seeking to overthrow.

Lyra, and later, Will, and all the others who joined in the Noble Cause should have rejected it right then and there.

Or,as Pete Townshend put it:

We'll be fighting in the streets
With our children at our feet
And the morals that they worship will be gone
And the men who spurred us on
Sit in judgment of all wrong
They decide and the shotgun sings the song

I'll tip my hat to the new constitution
Take a bow for the new revolution
Smile and grin at the change all around
Pick up my guitar and play
Just like yesterday
Then I'll get on my knees and pray
We don't get fooled again

The change, it had to come
We knew it all along
We were liberated from the fold, that's all
And the world looks just the same
And history ain't changed
'Cause the banners, they are flown in the next war

I'll tip my hat to the new constitution
Take a bow for the new revolution
Smile and grin at the change all around
Pick up my guitar and play
Just like yesterday
Then I'll get on my knees and pray
We don't get fooled again
No, no!

I'll move myself and my family aside
If we happen to be left half alive
I'll get all my papers and smile at the sky
Though I know that the hypnotized never lie
Do ya?

There's nothing in the streets
Looks any different to me
And the slogans are replaced, by-the-bye
And the parting on the left
Are now parting on the right
And the beards have all grown longer overnight

I'll tip my hat to the new constitution
Take a bow for the new revolution
Smile and grin at the change all around
Pick up my guitar and play
Just like yesterday
Then I'll get on my knees and pray
We don't get fooled again
Don't get fooled again
No, no!

Yeaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah!

Meet the new boss
Same as the old boss

The Gaffer · 10-19-2007, 06:22 PM

Outstanding post, GM!

You rock.

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a39...e9/rockout.jpg

(EDIT: Hey, I put IMG tags around that pic and it doesnt display

)

GrayMouser · 10-21-2007, 03:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Gaffer

Outstanding post, GM!

You rock.

Thanks- it's easier when 90% is quotes from other people

D.Sullivan · 10-22-2007, 06:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GrayMouser

Acalewia- Warning!! SPOILERS!!!

I loved the first book, enjoyed the second and was disappointed with the third, but then I read them at age 50- I would have totally loved them at 12, in the first awakening of my militant atheism.

But, to my thinking, there is a serious moral flaw running right through the heart of the Trilogy, which becomes manifest at the end of the first book. Lord Asriel severs Roger Parslow from his daemon order to release the energy needed to open the gates between worlds. In Lyra's world, this is the worst of crimes; far worse than murder because it destroys the soul- yet even after that, through the next two books, the characters take the side of Asriel and his war to overthrow Authority and establish the Republic of Heaven. Asriel is seen as personally corrupted by his actions, but his cause is still seen as righteous.

I would agree with you if I remembered Lyra and Will ever saying they believed what Asriel had done was right. But I don't. It seemed to me that Lyra's main interest in the last book was finding Roger and saying she was sorry, as rescuing him was her main intent in the first book. Her and Asriel have the same enemy, but that doesn't exactly make them allies, and I certainly never remember reading them voicing any such sentiment(except for Asriel, at the end.) It's been a while since I read it, so I simply may not remember the passages you refer to. Perhaps you could enlighten me on how you got the impression Lyra and Will were on Asriel's side, specifically?

Acalewia · 10-22-2007, 08:24 PM

You guys do know what spoiler tags are right?

I'm having to skip over some of the posts. I'm glad you warned me that your post had spoilers, GM

I'm on Chapter three now. It's just getting better and better

D.Sullivan · 10-22-2007, 09:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Acalewia

You guys do know what spoiler tags are right?

I'm having to skip over some of the posts. I'm glad you warned me that your post had spoilers, GM

I'm on Chapter three now. It's just getting better and better

Sorry, mate, I do know what they are, but I have forgotten how to do them. Would you mind reminding me?

Acalewia · 10-22-2007, 09:20 PM

[Spoiler*]text[/spoiler*]

Of course without the astrik

***Tessar*** · 10-22-2007, 09:28 PM

I keep meaning to read these books... I'll have to try to remember these over my christmas break

.

Acalewia · 10-23-2007, 07:16 PM

Do read. So far the first one is awesome

AceKnight · 11-05-2007, 09:25 PM

oK..I think i might check it out

Acalewia · 11-08-2007, 09:15 PM

I finished GC. I loved it! I'll start the next book as soon as I have time to pick up a book

Acalewia · 11-28-2007, 10:55 PM

I finished SK the other day. Great cliffhanger. I really don't have time at the moment to start AS

10-18-2007, 04:12 AM	#41
BeardofPants the Shrike Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: San Francisco, CA <3 Posts: 10,647	I'm also envious... the first book is just amazing in terms of its scope & imagination. __________________ "Binary solo! 0000001! 00000011! 0000001! 00000011!" ~ The Humans are Dead, Flight of the Conchords

10-19-2007, 12:14 PM	#42
Acalewia Halfelven Daughter of the Dunedain, President of Entmoot Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: In trouble. As usual. Posts: 4,674	So I heard from a certian pants master and frog mod __________________ "Acaly und Hektor fur Presidants fur EntMut fur life!"~ inked Don't meddle in the affairs of Dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup. "Don't be such a sour wolf" Stiles ~ Heart Monitor http://www.wattpad.com/user/IceQueenofMitera

10-19-2007, 01:22 PM	#43
BeardofPants the Shrike Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: San Francisco, CA <3 Posts: 10,647	And I'm NEVER wrong. *dances the I-AM-SO-RIGHT-I-AM-SOOOO-RIGHT chicken dance __________________ "Binary solo! 0000001! 00000011! 0000001! 00000011!" ~ The Humans are Dead, Flight of the Conchords

10-19-2007, 01:27 PM	#44
*Earniel* The Chocoholic Sea Elf Administrator Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: N?n in Eilph (Belgium) Posts: 14,363	Um. Right. What she said. I'll be fair and say I did have a tiny number of problems with the trilogy. But on scenery, ideas and imagination, it was magnificent. __________________ We are not things.

10-19-2007, 02:27 PM	#45
GrayMouser Elf Lord Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Ilha Formosa Posts: 2,068	Acalewia- Warning!! SPOILERS!!! I loved the first book, enjoyed the second and was disappointed with the third, but then I read them at age 50- I would have totally loved them at 12, in the first awakening of my militant atheism. But, to my thinking, there is a serious moral flaw running right through the heart of the Trilogy, which becomes manifest at the end of the first book. Lord Asriel severs Roger Parslow from his daemon order to release the energy needed to open the gates between worlds. In Lyra's world, this is the worst of crimes; far worse than murder because it destroys the soul- yet even after that, through the next two books, the characters take the side of Asriel and his war to overthrow Authority and establish the Republic of Heaven. Asriel is seen as personally corrupted by his actions, but his cause is still seen as righteous. Wordsworth wrote of the French Revolution: OH! pleasant exercise of hope and joy! For mighty were the auxiliars which then stood Upon our side, we who were strong in love! Bliss was it in that dawn to be alive, But to be young was very heaven!-- And that is Pullman's attitude- but the Fall of the Bastille was followed by the Reign of Terror; the Storming of the Winter Palace by the Gulag; the Long March by the Great Leap Forward and the Cultural Revolution; Year Zero by the Killing Fields. Lenin said "You can't make an omelette without breaking eggs", but Dosteovsky wrote that if you could produce Paradise on Earth by torturing a single child, it would still be wrong; Ursula LeGuin took the same view in "The Ones Who Walk Away From Omelas". In "1984" Winston Smith is forced to listen to a recording of himself vowing to do anything to overthrow Big Brother- even throw acid in the face of a child. O'Brian, the Inner Part inquisitor, then asks him what the difference is between him and the system he is seeking to overthrow. Lyra, and later, Will, and all the others who joined in the Noble Cause should have rejected it right then and there. Or,as Pete Townshend put it: We'll be fighting in the streets With our children at our feet And the morals that they worship will be gone And the men who spurred us on Sit in judgment of all wrong They decide and the shotgun sings the song I'll tip my hat to the new constitution Take a bow for the new revolution Smile and grin at the change all around Pick up my guitar and play Just like yesterday Then I'll get on my knees and pray We don't get fooled again The change, it had to come We knew it all along We were liberated from the fold, that's all And the world looks just the same And history ain't changed 'Cause the banners, they are flown in the next war I'll tip my hat to the new constitution Take a bow for the new revolution Smile and grin at the change all around Pick up my guitar and play Just like yesterday Then I'll get on my knees and pray We don't get fooled again No, no! I'll move myself and my family aside If we happen to be left half alive I'll get all my papers and smile at the sky Though I know that the hypnotized never lie Do ya? There's nothing in the streets Looks any different to me And the slogans are replaced, by-the-bye And the parting on the left Are now parting on the right And the beards have all grown longer overnight I'll tip my hat to the new constitution Take a bow for the new revolution Smile and grin at the change all around Pick up my guitar and play Just like yesterday Then I'll get on my knees and pray We don't get fooled again Don't get fooled again No, no! Yeaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah! Meet the new boss Same as the old boss __________________ Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep. Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man; But will they come when you do call for them? "I like pigs. Dogs look up to us, cats look down on us, but pigs treat us as equals."- Winston Churchill

10-19-2007, 06:22 PM	#46
The Gaffer Elf Lord Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: In me taters Posts: 3,288	Outstanding post, GM! You rock. http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a39...e9/rockout.jpg (EDIT: Hey, I put IMG tags around that pic and it doesnt display ) Last edited by The Gaffer : 10-19-2007 at 06:24 PM.

10-22-2007, 08:24 PM	#49
Acalewia Halfelven Daughter of the Dunedain, President of Entmoot Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: In trouble. As usual. Posts: 4,674	You guys do know what spoiler tags are right? I'm having to skip over some of the posts. I'm glad you warned me that your post had spoilers, GM I'm on Chapter three now. It's just getting better and better __________________ "Acaly und Hektor fur Presidants fur EntMut fur life!"~ inked Don't meddle in the affairs of Dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup. "Don't be such a sour wolf" Stiles ~ Heart Monitor http://www.wattpad.com/user/IceQueenofMitera

10-22-2007, 09:20 PM	#51
Acalewia Halfelven Daughter of the Dunedain, President of Entmoot Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: In trouble. As usual. Posts: 4,674	[Spoiler]text[/spoiler] Of course without the astrik __________________ "Acaly und Hektor fur Presidants fur EntMut fur life!"~ inked Don't meddle in the affairs of Dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup. "Don't be such a sour wolf" Stiles ~ Heart Monitor http://www.wattpad.com/user/IceQueenofMitera

10-22-2007, 09:28 PM	#52
*Tessar* Master and Wielder of the Cardboard Harp of Gondor Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: IM IN UR POSTZ, EDITIN' UR WURDZ Posts: 6,433	I keep meaning to read these books... I'll have to try to remember these over my christmas break .

10-23-2007, 07:16 PM	#53
Acalewia Halfelven Daughter of the Dunedain, President of Entmoot Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: In trouble. As usual. Posts: 4,674	Do read. So far the first one is awesome __________________ "Acaly und Hektor fur Presidants fur EntMut fur life!"~ inked Don't meddle in the affairs of Dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup. "Don't be such a sour wolf" Stiles ~ Heart Monitor http://www.wattpad.com/user/IceQueenofMitera

11-05-2007, 09:25 PM	#54
AceKnight Hobbit Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 28	oK..I think i might check it out __________________ Adventures are nasty things;make you late for dinner!

11-08-2007, 09:15 PM	#55
Acalewia Halfelven Daughter of the Dunedain, President of Entmoot Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: In trouble. As usual. Posts: 4,674	I finished GC. I loved it! I'll start the next book as soon as I have time to pick up a book __________________ "Acaly und Hektor fur Presidants fur EntMut fur life!"~ inked Don't meddle in the affairs of Dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup. "Don't be such a sour wolf" Stiles ~ Heart Monitor http://www.wattpad.com/user/IceQueenofMitera

11-28-2007, 10:55 PM	#56
Acalewia Halfelven Daughter of the Dunedain, President of Entmoot Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: In trouble. As usual. Posts: 4,674	I finished SK the other day. Great cliffhanger. I really don't have time at the moment to start AS __________________ "Acaly und Hektor fur Presidants fur EntMut fur life!"~ inked Don't meddle in the affairs of Dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup. "Don't be such a sour wolf" Stiles ~ Heart Monitor http://www.wattpad.com/user/IceQueenofMitera

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