Theories on the Identity of the Witch-King

[CrazySquirrel]

A very interesting post, Alcuin. I am so glad you are at this forum now.

Well, it seems neither Olmer, nor Gordis are here...I shall try to reply, as I loved Olmer's theory and I have recently read Unfinished Tales.
Moreover, I am the Witch-King fan, and I will defend him to my last breath.

Originally Posted by Alcuin

It seems to me that the Witch-king was from the royal house, and not someone who sat upon the throne. Think about it: who can imagine the megalomaniacal Witch-king giving up his throne to some lesser mortal? It just doesn’t Ring true.

Why was the Witch King "megalomaniacal"? I have not got that impression. After all, he sat in Minas Morgul for a thousand years without even trying to attack Gondor seriously. And later he was SENT by Sauron to take Minas Tirith. And in Olmer's theory Ciryatan surrendered the throne to his son, not some lesser mortal and not "really" as he continued to rule either behind the scene, or directly, serving his "second term" as Tar-Atanamir. He quit only when he became a wraith.

Originally Posted by Alcuin

Besides, at that point, Sauron would have controlled the kingdom, not a thousand years later.

Yes, that is the biggest problem of Olmer's theory. But I don't think there is no "way out". Please, read my # 29 post in this thread.

Originally Posted by Alcuin

The timing suggests that the Lord of the Nazgûl was the son of Tar-Minastir, who probably led the Númenórean expeditionary force to Gil-galad’s aid as plenipotentiary for his aunt, Tar-Telperiën, or the son of Tar-Ciryatan, and hence Tar-Minastir’s grandson.

If a SON of Tar-Minastir led the expedition to ME, that would be Ciryatan. In this very thread it was long argued, whether Ciry was old enough (60) to lead the army. Some believed he was still too young. (And indeed, 60 for a 400 year lifespan is like 12 year old for a 80 years life span. Sure , not exactly, as the numenoreans grew up at the same rate as lesser men... But still, by our standards Ciry was no more than 25). Than his YOUNGER brother would be less than 50, even younger and less experienced. And Ciry traveled many times to ME before he took the scepter, so out of the two sons of Minastir the leader would be obviously the eldest. Apart from that, we have NO evidence that Ciry had a brother.

The son of Tar-Ciryatan? Tar-Atanamir was born in 1800. His younger brother would be at least 10 years younger. (10 years is a minimal difference between siblings in the Line of Elros). By 2251, when the nazgul first appeared, he would have been no more than 440. With the life expectancy of 400-410 years one can hardly say that "his life seemed endless". With that compare Gollum who has lived for 550 years, while normally he had to live to 100 only.. No, Ciry's son won't do, it must have been someone from the previous generation.

Originally Posted by Alcuin

The idea in the Witch-king's head that he should have been king is to me like the idea in Sméagol’s head that the Ring should have been his birth-day present: he was the next-in-line (perhaps until Atanamir was born, for instance), he ought to have been king, he should have been king, and so forth.

Suppose you are right and he was ALMOST the heir, with 1-2 persons between himself and the throne. How can you account for the fact that, corrupted by his Ring, he has not tried to eliminate these 1-2 who hindered him? Smeagol has murdered Deagol, has he not? And right away, without a second thought.
This is, I believe, the biggest problem of Alcuin's theory.

Another problem of Alcuin's theory is WHY Sauron HAS NOT given a ring to Ciryatan. He was in ME a lot, therefore easily accessible. He was the rightful heir, and soon-to-be King. So, WHY NOT?.

[Quote=Alcuin]In the end, he probably helped corrupt Númenor, or at least Tar-Atanamir, setting Númenor on the road to ruin[ /Quote]
And that is ALL he was able to do? Isn't it more parsimonious to think that it was Tar-Atanamir himself who was being corrupted directly by his ring?

Originally Posted by Alcuin

he destroyed Arnor; he ended the line of Anárion

The Witch-King has taken Rhudaur even before Arthedain, and it was ruled NOT by a heir of Elendil, just by a hillman. The same applies to Cardolan, where the line of Elendil has expired before 1409. So nothing personal here. All of Arnor was on the way of Angmar's expansion. As for Earnur, the WK hated him personally for causing his defeat at Fornost. And the dumb king got what he deserved.
Perhaps the Witch-King would have been a better king for Arnor than all these descendents of "a ragged house long bereft of lordship and dignity." that could not keep their kingdom whole and who ruined it in perpetual squabbles between themselves.

Originally Posted by Alcuin

and he almost destroyed Gondor.

He was SENT by Sauron to do it. Nobody asked what he wished.

Originally Posted by Alcuin

He was dead-set on being the king of the Númenóreans, even if he had to kill every last one of them to get the crown. Rather warped, in my mind, but consistently so: “I’ll make you love me if I have to kill you to do it.� Unfortunately, it happens in the real world, even without magic rings.

Yes, being undoubtedly a numenorean of the royal line, if not a King, he certainly preferred to rule "high" people, not barbarians. It is only natural. Were he Tar-Ciryatan, he would act the same. As for "asking for love" where have you got it? Love is not the way of Mordor. Order and fear are.

What say you to that, Alcuin?

And a side note, I have posted a big reply to you in "Boromir I the wraith" thread, I would be happy to know your opinion
Regards,
CS

[durinsbane2244]

may I, if for a brief instant, interrupt, what exactly does, ah, megalomaniacalwhatsitwhoahehewot mean?

[Lotesse]

http://www.onelook.com/

This is a great online dictionary source, it will have almost any word you can think of that might need defining.

[Alcuin]

In four parts. Gee, CS, you nearly killed me on this one. Bite-sized, next time, please!

Part 1 of 4:

CS, let’s make a deal: let Olmer and Gordis throw their own brickbat at me.  Now, let us see I can satisfy your objections in a reasonable fashion. Remember, we’re speculating on what has been written. I rather like using the material from Unfinished Tales in this endeavor: there is a considerable amount of material there, especially on the various kings of Númenor. There is also a vast amount of material on the Downfall of Númenor in Sauron Defeated, the final version of which was printed in The Silmarillion as Akallabêth. I’m going to use some of that material to make my positions.

Point 1:

Originally Posted by CrazySquirrel

Why was the Witch King "megalomaniacal"?

Response A:

Originally Posted by Return of the King, The Siege of Gondor

The Black Rider flung back his hood, and behold! he had a kingly crown; and yet on no head visible was it set. The red fires shone between it and the mantled shoulders vast and dark. From a mouth unseen there came a deadly laughter.

‘Old fool!’ he said. ‘Old fool! This is my hour. Do you not know Death when you see it? Die now and curse in vain!’ And with that he lifted high his sword and flames ran down the blade.

OK, here’s a Númenórean – I think we can all generally agree that this guy was a Númenórean in his origins, although that was some 4500 years ago or so, and some may disagree on even this point (note: I do not care to debate this point and will leave it to others should it arise) – who knows, I suspect, that he is facing a Maia and threatening to kill (un-house or disembody) him. He raises his sword to strike his Ainu opponent. That’s some real self-confidence.

Let’s assume for a moment that old Witch King does not know that Gandalf is a Maia. Now, how stupid can Sauron be? Sauron has been talking to Saruman for quite some time (via palantir). He knows what Saruman is, and he might even know who Saruman is – fundamentally know who he is, from the Ainulindalë before the existence of Arda. Both of these creatures were Maiar of Aulë. It doesn’t take a genius to decide that the rest of the Istari are also Maiar, even if that determination were not made long before. So Sauron doesn’t tell his chief servant? I think we can discard this notion: the Witch King knows what kind of creature Gandalf is.

Now, you might argue that the Witch King is confident that he can take on Gandalf because Fingolfin took on Morgoth. (It ended badly for him, but hey! he got in some good licks, right?) He isn’t Fingolfin. In fact, he’s no match for Glorfindel: he ran away from Glorfindel at the battle near Fornost over a millennium earlier. Who knows how strong this Elda or that is? But let’s just suppose Glorfindel is about as strong as Fingolfin was in that battle with Morgoth. Glorfindel says he (and some others in Rivendell) can ride openly against the Nine. It’s just my opinion, but the idea that the Witch-King is going to take on Gandalf and absolutely win is a stretch. Maybe he is every bit a powerful as a Maia – an Istar, a balrog, Eönwë the Herald – he knows more about his capabilities than I do. It just strikes me as hubris in the classic sense of Greek drama. But you have to come to your own conclusions about that one.


Response B:

Originally Posted by Return of the King, The Battle of the Pelennor Fields

‘Hinder me? Thou fool. No living man may hinder me!’

Gandalf's a fool, Dernhelm's a fool: Lots of fools here on the battlefield. (Actually, Old Angmar sounds a lot like me on a bad day on Route 128: I’m surrounded by them! all driving bumper-to-bumper at 65 mph! and in my way!)

Well, I guess that makes him pretty much untouchable, something I’m not in my wife’s minivan in cramped, megalomaniacal East Coast traffic. I think these two quotes – straight from the horse’s mouth, so to speak (and he doesn’t say much more in the books) – show a guy with a real sense of self-importance. Grant me, if you will, that he has a very high opinion of himself; oh, and he seems to have a correspondingly low opinion of everyone else. Feel free to disagree: I know real people like that, and you probably do, too.

It’s the crown, though: “he had a kingly crown; and yet on no head visible was it set.â€� What’s he king of? Angmar? Eärnur, CÃ*rdan, Glorfindel, and the survivors of Arnor ended that. Minas Morgul? Maybe. Minas Tirith? Now, that’s an idea! He’s a conquering king! Who knows what he was able to extract from Eärnur after months or years of torment in Minas Morgul!

I’m not going to grant you that he’s a former King of Númenor. That’s what this reply is all about. I think he wants to the King of the Númenóreans, and I rather suspect that desire this was part of his downfall. I can’t prove it, but to me, it fits the puzzle.

I still say he’s megalomaniacal. But I bought my doctorate in psychiatry at the local Wal-Mart, and I admit I could be mistaken.

Originally Posted by CrazySquirrel

After all, he sat in Minas Morgul for a thousand years without even trying to attack Gondor seriously. And later he was SENT by Sauron to take Minas Tirith.

You’re rather begging the question that he wasn’t restrained from attacking before, aren’t you? And that Gondor was only recently weak enough to face decisive defeat in the first place: Sauron carefully built up his own power while eroding that of his enemies: very crafty of the old Ring-maker.

We’re rarely privy to the inner workings of Sauron’s designs, or his interactions with the Nazgûl. The one clear exception here is in “The Hunt for the Ring� in Unfinished Tales: it’s worth a trip to the library if you really like reading about the Witch-King. The tale takes up as the Nazgûl wander about the Vales of Anduin looking for “Shire�:

Originally Posted by Unfinished Tales, The Hunt for the Ring

At length [the Nazgûl] returned; but the summer was now far waned, and the wrath and fear of Sauron was mounting. When they came back to the Wold September had come; and there they met messengers from Barad-dûr conveying messages from their Master that filled even the Morgul-lord with dismay.

And you thought your boss was a booger! I extract from this passage that these men – or what was left of them – were really not very fond of Sauron. They’d had a long, leisurely time to get to know him, and what amused him, how he liked his eggs in the morning, whether he took one sugar or two in his coffee and how much cream – and how really, really nasty he could be when he forgot his high blood pressure medicine. I could be wrong, but I get the sense that Sauron had a micro-manager style, and like a lot of guys who micro-manage, what goes wrong is never, ever his fault. That sounds to me like a relationship based on fear and loathing.

The point is this: if Sauron said, “Don’t attack over Anduin yet,� I’ll bet the Witch-King and his eight companions would do exactly as told.

[Alcuin]

Part 2 of 4:

Originally Posted by CrazySquirrel

And in Olmer's theory Ciryatan surrendered the throne to his son, not some lesser mortal and not "really" as he continued to rule either behind the scene, or directly, serving his "second term" as Tar-Atanamir. He quit only when he became a wraith.
Yes, that is the biggest problem of Olmer's theory. But I don't think there is no "way out". Please, read my # 29 post in this thread.

Yeah, that’s a pretty big problem. Kind of like an elephant in the refrigerator: you know he’s there because of the footprints in the butter. The real problem is that (1) none of the Númenóreans noticed it; (2) Sauron Defeated and Akallabêth both recount in every version of the story that “emissaries� from Valinor went to Númenor and tried to reason with Tar-Atanamir about his rebellion against the Ban of the Valar and the Gift of Men, and these “emissaries� never noticed it, either; (3) Tar-Ciryatan retired, gave up his throne to Tar-Atanamir, and laid himself down like a good Númenórean and willingly surrendered his life, just like Aragorn did over 4,500 years later. It’s just my opinion, but I think the Númenóreans would have noticed if something else had transpired. If not, perhaps the author might have given us some kind of subtle hint: like, “and at the end of his reign, Tar-Ciryatan went off to Middle-Earth to seek his fortune.� No, our esteemed author writes,

Originally Posted by Unfinished Tales, The Line of Elros

XII Tar-Ciryatan
He was born in the year 1634, and ruled for 160 years; he surrendered his sceptre in 2029, and died in 2035. … He scorned the yearnings of his father, … It is said he constrained his father to yield to him ere of his free will he would. In this way (it is held) might the first coming of the Shadow upon the bliss of Númenor be seen.

In other words, Tar-Ciryatan did the same thing to Tar-Minastir that Richard the Lion-Hearted did to his father, King Henry II. Richard was egged on his mother, Eleanor of Aquitaine, and his brother, the future King John (of Runnymede and Magna Charta and Robin Hood fame, or infamy, as the case may be). Tolkien was quite the historian: I kind of wonder if there’s not some real history giving him a story lead here.

The straightforward reading of the text, though, says it all: Tar-Ciryatan is dead. Not undead, just dead, entombed, and his tomb was lost in the ruin of Númenor. I’ll bet that the Númenóreans would have noticed if he had come to some other end. He ain’t ’round no more, that’s what I believe. I trust you’ll tell me if you disagree.

By the way, nobody missed the death of Tar-Atanamir. He did something new for a Númenórean: he hung onto life “until death took him perforce in dotage.� (Unfinished Tales, The Line of Elros) He was senile. He died when he could hold onto life no longer. That little item might have made the evening news, but I’ll bet the rumor of it made the cocktail rounds. Do you think they could have hidden that fact from the royal court or the Council of the Sceptre?

Originally Posted by CrazySquirrel

If a SON of Tar-Minastir led the expedition to ME, that would be Ciryatan. In this very thread it was long argued, whether Ciry was old enough (60) to lead the army. Some believed he was still too young.

That’s a fair observation. The guy who is specifically mentioned in a leadership position in the Númenórean expeditionary force is Tar-Minastir’s admiral, Ciryatur. “Ciryatan� and “Ciryatur� are pretty similar, but I’ll bet they’re different people: otherwise, I suspect Tolkien would have written something like “The Númenórean admiral Ciryatur, son of Tar-Minastir, sent part of his ships to make a landing further to the south,� instead of just “The Númenórean admiral Ciryatur sent part of his ships to make a landing further to the south.� (Unfinished Tales, History of Galadriel and Celeborn)

Originally Posted by CrazySquirrel

(And indeed, 60 for a 400 year lifespan is like 12 year old for a 80 years life span. Sure , not exactly, as the numenoreans grew up at the same rate as lesser men... But still, by our standards Ciry was no more than 25).

You answered your own objection, CS. The Númenóreans DID grow up like “lesser men�, they just lived longer lives in the middle. Aragorn was pretty much an adult by age 20, to the delight of his foster-father, Elrond.

[Alcuin]

Part 3 of 4:

Originally Posted by CrazySquirrel

And Ciry traveled many times to ME before he took the scepter, so out of the two sons of Minastir the leader would be obviously the eldest. Apart from that, we have NO evidence that Ciry had a brother.

Ok, we’re all revved up in speculative mode, but (1) the idea that Tar-Ciryatan traveled to Middle-earth in his youth is probably well-founded, but I can’t find a specific citation on that. If you have one, beat me over the head with it. The plain text says, “he built a great fleet of royal ships, and his servants brought back great store of metals and gems, and oppressed the men of Middle-Earth.� (Unfinished Tales, The Line of Elros) I don’t disagree with you on this point, I just can’t prove it. (2) “we have NO evidence that Ciry had a brother� begs that question, too: my idea that there were brothers at all is all in the realm of speculation: there’s no evidence Tar-Minastir had a brother, either. If Professor Tolkien walked through my office door tonight and said, “Bonehead! The Lord of the Nazgûl was a younger nephew of Tar-Telperiën by yet another brother (or sister), not Tar-Minastir’s son or grandson,� or “He was really Tar-Telperiën's first cousin once (or twice) removed,� I’d be just as happy, not to mention downright surprised. (I don’t think I’d care to walk to his home with him tonight, unless of course I have no other good choices. I hope he is resting as comfortably as his Faith led him to believe, but I am not that tired just yet.)

I don’t think the guy was necessarily in the expeditionary force. I mean, what happened here? Sauron got his butt kicked and barely made it back to Barad-dûr with what remained of his personal guard. Do you really think he walked out under the bright sun (or dark of night) the very next day (or night) and said, “I’ll get that General So-and-So from the royal house! I’ll get one of these-here Nine rings, and I’ll wraith-ify him!� I’ll bet that isn’t how it went down.

When Tar-Ciryatan ascended the throne – whether early, on time, because he outmaneuvered his trusting father politically – the war had been over almost 170 years. That’s long enough for the original military commanders to go home, and another generation of military leaders to go to Middle-earth and take over the forts. Sauron has to concoct a plan. That takes time. He has to test it before he acts on his newly sworn enemies, the Númenóreans. (“I wonder what one of Celebrimbor’s Great Rings will do to a mortal. Hey, Khamûl ol’ buddy! C’mere! Khamûl, we’ve been friends a long time. Take this ring as a token of my esteem. By the way, you might be interested to know that this will make you an undefeatable commander and irresistible to the ladies. Oh, and I think it gives you unending life. (Better not tell him about the awful halitosis until the spell sets in.)�) That takes more time.

The good Alvin Eriol of another of my favorite boards suggested that the Lord of the Nazgûl was the commander and governor of Umbar, and that he was probably trapped several decades after the end of the war. That sounds imminently sensible to me; I wouldn’t care to venture a guess on which of the settlements he led, but Umbar sounds fair enough. It could be any of them. He could have been visiting for studies, involved in something else entirely, on a picnic in Ithilien – we don’t know, and we’re not told. But commander and governor of a garrison sounds right to me, because that means he gets to meet and entertain the visitors. And an important, wealthy, seemingly wise and erudite visitor with a magic dingus is just the kind of intriguing fellow to tickle the fancy of a bored viceroy in a newly-constructed fortress far from home and the familiar comforts of Númenor. “A magic ring, you say? Me, King? Nah, (insert your own here: “my brother�, “my cousin�, “my nephew�, “my uncle�, “that greedy dog who gets all the lucky breaks instead of me�) is gonna be King. Whadda ya mean it makes you invisible? Everlasting life? Oh, that’s a hoot! Really … ?�

Originally Posted by CrazySquirrel

The son of Tar-Ciryatan? Tar-Atanamir was born in 1800. His younger brother would be at least 10 years younger. (10 years is a minimal difference between siblings in the Line of Elros). By 2251, when the nazgul first appeared, he would have been no more than 440. With the life expectancy of 400-410 years one can hardly say that "his life seemed endless". With that compare Gollum who has lived for 550 years, while normally he had to live to 100 only.. No, Ciry's son won't do, it must have been someone from the previous generation.

Let’s say our putative prince was born in 1700. (My personal favorite is that he was Ciryatan’s brother. From my essay: “He was probably close in age to the royal heir, Tar-Ciryatan, which means he was likely born in Númenor between II 1550 and II 1650. He need not have been a son of Tar-Minastir, although that is possible, but he was in all likelihood a close kinsman of Tar-Ciryatan and himself a descendant of Elros.� My opinions subject to change without notice, but I rather like this one.) The Nazgûl first appeared about 2250. That makes our boy 550 years old. If he was born about 1600, he’d be about 650 years old. Gee, I thought Elros was the oldest of the Númenóreans in natural life-span, and he was only 500. I guess that makes Ol’ Angmar “well-preserved�, as the hobbits said of Bilbo. Frankly, I don’t think daily formaldehyde showers could preserve him that well, Númenórean or no.

[Alcuin]

Part 4 of 4 (Hurray! I counted right!):

Originally Posted by CrazySquirrel

Suppose you are right and he was ALMOST the heir, with 1-2 persons between himself and the throne. How can you account for the fact that, corrupted by his Ring, he has not tried to eliminate these 1-2 who hindered him? Smeagol has murdered Deagol, has he not? And right away, without a second thought.
This is, I believe, the biggest problem of Alcuin's theory.

Yeah. Sméagol was right next to Déagol, they were far from home, and there were no witnesses. What’s a desperate Nazgûl-in-the-making to do? “Have at you! You can’t see me! Nyah, nyah, nyah! Nobody can see me! (Swings from chandeliers a la John Clease in Monty Python and the Holy Grail) Gotcha! Okay, everybody, now I’m king! Oh, sorry, let me take off my Ring. Here I am! Okay, everybody bow down.�

CS, I’m not poking fun at you, so please don’t take offense. I was having fun, but not at your expense, because you make a legitimate point: why didn’t the guy just kill the people between him and the royal scepter? I think Gandalf answers that question:

Originally Posted by The Fellowship of the Ring, The Shadow of the Past

‘A mortal, Frodo who keeps one of the Great Rings, does not die, but he does not grow or obtain more life, he merely continues, until at last every minute is a weariness. And if he often uses the Ring to make himself invisible, he fades: he becomes in the end invisible permanently, and walks in the twilight under the eye of the dark power that rules the Rings. Yes, sooner or later – later, if he is strong or well-meaning to begin with, but neither strength nor good purpose will last – sooner or later the dark power will devour him.�

Well, what in the world – or Middle-earth – is Gandalf talking about? “Later, if he is strong or well-meaning to begin with�? I’ll bet that’s an observation based on experience: not Gandalf’s, mind you, but knowledge that three fine noblemen of Númenor – good guys, strong people, well-meaning, perhaps even the very paragons of virtue – had fallen prey to the Rings. These three Númenóreans didn’t start out as bad guys: they were good guys. To paraphrase Gandalf a few pages later, “it might have happened to some others, even some (Dúnedain) that I have known.� Almost happened to Boromir. By the time the future Lord of the Nazgûl had sunk so low that he would have killed those between him and the throne, it was too late: the Númenóreans would probably have attacked him: it is highly unlikely that they would have accepted some 500- or 600-year old guy (who might well have smelled funny, and I don’t mean in the everyday olfactory sense) as their king. They were not so stupid – or so ignorant – that they would have forgotten what kind of enemy Sauron was. It was only Ar-Pharazôn in his boundless pride and arrogance that took Sauron back to Númenor, and then only after years of wheedling that he trusted him, and finally only the fear of death – and possibly some punishment in the next life – that he enticed the King to attack Valinor. Even at the bitter end, the Númenóreans retained some sense of who they were and what they were dealing with.

Originally Posted by CrazySquirrel

Another problem of Alcuin's theory is WHY Sauron HAS NOT given a ring to Ciryatan. He was in ME a lot, therefore easily accessible. He was the rightful heir, and soon-to-be King. So, WHY NOT?.

He’s gotta get to him, CS. “Excuse me, your majesty. Try this on for size?� This guy’s roaming around with his friends, his followers, his minders, his hangers-on: he’s a crown prince! The guy is state property of the Kingdom of Númenor: they’re not letting some weirdo with a box of rings get anywhere near him! “Don’t put that thing on!� Or better yet, “Give it to Who-Be-Boo over here. He’ll try it on first.� No, Alvin Eriol is correct in his observation: a royal governor is the perfect target, and he might well be a prince or other close kinsman of the king, especially after the fighting died down and things got quiet after a while.

Originally Posted by CrazySquirrel

The Witch-King has taken Rhudaur even before Arthedain, and it was ruled NOT by a heir of Elendil, just by a hillman.

Now, now, that was a coup d’etat, planned and arranged by the megalomaniacal Angmar. (Edit – Rhudaur was indeed originally ruled by a junior branch of the line of Eärendur, eighth and last king of the undivided Kingdom of Arnor.)

Originally Posted by CrazySquirrel

The same applies to Cardolan, where the line of Elendil has expired before 1409. So nothing personal here.

Originally Posted by Return of the King, Appendix A

Some say that the mound in which the Ring-bearer was imprisoned had been the grave of the last prince of Cardolan, who fell in the war of 1409.

Arthedain claimed Cardolan after the extinction of that branch of the royal line, a claim which Rhudaur and Angmar contested. (Successfully, as it later turned to Arvedui’s dismay.)

Originally Posted by CrazySquirrel

All of Arnor was on the way of Angmar's expansion.

And the Witch-King says, “Look at me! I’m king in Fornost! Whoopee!� What a megalomaniac!

Originally Posted by CrazySquirrel

As for Earnur, the WK hated him personally for causing his defeat at Fornost. And the dumb king got what he deserved.

Amen to that!! Eärnur is the Peter Principle in action: terrific general, not wise enough to remain king. (For those of you too young to remember, the “Peter Principle� says that every worker rises to his level of incompetence: he does something well, so you give him another job and then another until he does one of them badly. It’s a 1970s, Carter-malaise kind of theory. I don’t think Jack Welch ever subscribed to it at GE.)

Originally Posted by CrazySquirrel

Perhaps the Witch-King would have been a better king for Arnor than all these descendents of "a ragged house long bereft of lordship and dignity." that could not keep their kingdom whole and who ruined it in perpetual squabbles between themselves.

Said in jest, I assume. On the other hand, I am sure the Witch-King agreed whole-heartedly with those sentiments.

Originally Posted by CrazySquirrel

Yes, being undoubtedly a numenorean of the royal line, if not a King, he certainly preferred to rule "high" people, not barbarians. It is only natural. Were he Tar-Ciryatan, he would act the same. As for "asking for love" where have you got it? Love is not the way of Mordor. Order and fear are.

I once heard that [edited by Valandil - couldn't resist an invitation like THAT! ] ... ’cause he was looking for love in all the wrong places. (That’s another 1970s reference, and liable to be edited out by Valandil.)

Originally Posted by CrazySquirrel

What say you to that, Alcuin?

Did I pass?

Originally Posted by CrazySquirrel

And a side note, I have posted a big reply to you in "Boromir I the wraith" thread, I would be happy to know your opinion

I gotta get up in a few hours. I can’t do another thread tonight. But thank you. And I hope you take this in the (goodly-intentioned) humor in which it was offered.

Originally Posted by Return of the King, The Houses of Healing

‘I know that well, or I would not deal with you in the same way,’ said Aragorn. ‘May the Shire live for ever unwithered!’

And Crazy Squirrels always find plenty of acorns and pecans.

[CrazySquirrel]

Oh, Alcuin, you almost knocked me down. And you were the one to ask for a bite-sized pieces!
How can a reply to THAT be bite-sized?

Please, before you start to read, consider that it took a lot of time as it is, so I didn't type the obvious quotes from LOTR and so on. Sometimes I quoted from memory. If you are uncertain what I meant, let me know, I shall provide the whole quote.

Part I

I have no doubt that the Witch-King knew that Gandalf was a maia. The WK lived almost entirely in the spirit world, and I believe in that world it is pretty easy to recognise Maiar, Calaquendi elves, nazgul and mortal ringbeareas. The istari were "clad" in men bodies, but that was only in "the world of light". In the other world their true form must have been apparent.

Originally Posted by Alcuin

OK, here’s a Númenórean ...who knows, I suspect, that he is facing a Maia and threatening to kill (un-house or disembody) him. He raises his sword to strike his Ainu opponent. That’s some real self-confidence.

Was Fingolfin self-confident when he challenged Morgoth? Was Beren (a mere man) confident when he set out to get the Silmarils from the mightiest of the Valar? Was Gandalf himself confident when he challenged the Barlog or the Witch-King? There are things one HAS to do, even if the outcome is uncertain. Facing a mightier foe, one has to appear 100% confident. Why everyone praises the courage of those "good" characters, but sneers at the Witch-King's? Not fair.

Originally Posted by Alcuin

Now, you might argue that the Witch King is confident that he can take on Gandalf because Fingolfin took on Morgoth. (It ended badly for him, but hey! he got in some good licks, right?) He isn’t Fingolfin.

Well Gandalf is not Morgoth either. The istari were not allowed to use their full might, but had to act by persuasion, advising and kindling hope in Men and Elves. And the Witch-King was not a mere man, not anymore. He was a powerful sorcerer and warrior on his own, and at the Siege of Gondor his power was greatly increased by Sauron.
When Denethor asked Gandalf "or you withdrew because you were overmatched?" Gandalf replied, "It may be so..."

Originally Posted by Alcuin

In fact, he’s no match for Glorfindel: he ran away from Glorfindel at the battle near Fornost over a millennium earlier. Who knows how strong this Elda or that is? But let’s just suppose Glorfindel is about as strong as Fingolfin was in that battle with Morgoth. Glorfindel says he (and some others in Rivendell) can ride openly against the Nine..

Glorfindel was unique, a Calaquendi Elf, once slain and returned from Mandos. He was closer to Maiar in power, or so I believ. As for Witchy avoiding confrontation with Glorfindel, it rather shows that he was NOT overconfident. He knew that Glorfindel was an even match for him, if not stronger. There was no need for the WK to fight Glorfindel at Fornost, the battle was lost anyway. He was not going to die on the field just for the heck of it! On the other hand, how do you account for the fact that during the flight to Bruinen, Glorfindel has not taken the wounded Frodo to Rivendell on Asfaloth, ahead of the others? Because he knew, that with the Ring, he would be attacked by the Nine and was NOT overconfident either.

Originally Posted by Alcuin

‘Hinder me? Thou fool. No living man may hinder me!’. Gandalf's a fool, Dernhelm's a fool: Lots of fools here on the battlefield.

Was Wikkie boasting when he warned Derenhelm of the impending danger? Not one bit. He was stating simple truth. Dernhelm could do nothing against the WK. Without the impossible combination of circumstances, or help from the Valar, the Witch-King would have done what he chose with the foolish soldier facing him. Could he expect Derenhelm to be no-man? Could he expect another no-man to stab him in the back? Could he expect Merry to have a Barrow-Downs blade? No.
By the way, I think Witchy was rather nice and considerate to warn the soldier, instead of beating his head in with the mace right away.

Originally Posted by Alcuin

Grant me, if you will, that he has a very high opinion of himself; oh, and he seems to have a correspondingly low opinion of everyone else. Feel free to disagree

. Granted, he had a very high opinion of himself. And rightly. He was the mightiest of the Nine (See UT), the Captain of Mordor army. And he was the LAST High Numenorean left in ME, after all. Grant him that, at least. Reread Faramir's words about high Numenoreans and peoples of twilight. Faramir was humble, he understood that Gondoreans had dwindled already from the stature of "high" Numenoreans from Elenna. But Witchy WAS one, and he had no need to be humble.

Originally Posted by Alcuin

It’s the crown, though: “he had a kingly crown; and yet on no head visible was it set.â€� What’s he king of? Angmar? Eärnur, CÃ*rdan, Glorfindel, and the survivors of Arnor ended that. Minas Morgul? Maybe. Minas Tirith? Now, that’s an idea! He’s a conquering king!

But he IS the conquering King! And don't forget the crown that everyone was able to see on Pelennor was a Real-World crown that he must have put on for the occasion. While in the spirit world, he always wore a kingly crown (the one Frodo saw at Weathertop). The latter has become a part of his true form, not a matter of his choice. And, as Olmer says, it points that he was King of Numenor .

Originally Posted by Alcuin

Who knows what he was able to extract from Eärnur after months or years of torment in Minas Morgul!

What do you mean?

Originally Posted by Alcuin

I’m not going to grant you that he’s a former King of Númenor. ...I think he wants to be the King of the Númenóreans, and I rather suspect that desire this was part of his downfall. I can’t prove it, but to me, it fits the puzzle. I still say he’s megalomaniacal.

I think he was the one and wanted to be the other. But what is wrong with his desire? A professional soldier would wish to fight; a professional writer will try to write, a professional architect will try to build and a professional King seeks for a kingdom to rule.

Megalomaniac? According to Cambridge International Dictionary of English, "megalomania means
an unnaturally great desire for power and control, or the belief that you are very much more important and powerful than you really are". Was his desire for power and control "unnatural"? No, it would have been unnatural for you or me, but for him it was NATURAL. Did he think himself more powerful than he really was? No. He avoided Glorfindel, he would have avoided Gandalf, if he had a choice in the matter. He let Gandalf slip from the trap at Weathertop. Nobody was killed or injured in that battle. Unlike in the movie, he didn't seek Gandalf out in Minas Tirith. Gandalf chose to confront him, not the other way round.

[CrazySquirrel]

Originally Posted by Alcuin

It’s just my opinion, but I think the Númenóreans would have noticed if something else had transpired. If not, perhaps the author might have given us some kind of subtle hint: like, “and at the end of his reign, Tar-Ciryatan went off to Middle-Earth to seek his fortune.� No, our esteemed author writes, (Unfinished Tales, The Line of Elros XII Tar-Ciryatan.) "He was born in the year 1634, and ruled for 160 years; he surrendered his sceptre in 2029, and died in 2035. … He scorned the yearnings of his father, … It is said he constrained his father to yield to him ere of his free will he would. In this way (it is held) might the first coming of the Shadow upon the bliss of Númenor be seen".

And our esteemed author never publishes it. Instead, AFTER writing the UT, where is the account of each of the Kings with dates, Tolkien publishes LOTR appendices. There we read "2251. Tar-Atanamir takes the sceptre.... Nazgul first appear." If it is not a hint, I don't know what is one. I agree with Olmer here.

Why nothing is said of the ring in the Silm or in the UT? If we discuss a fictional book, the reply is: because Tolkien has not written the Witch-King's history. If we discuss the history of ME as a "real history" I would repeat after Olmer: because the chronicles of Numenor and Gondor were swept clean of all the references to the Witch-King, (the same way as the story of Beruthiel had been obliterated). If one asks YOU, why is there no mention of a Prince -nazgul, you will have to give the same answer.

Originally Posted by Alcuin

By the way, nobody missed the death of Tar-Atanamir. He did something new for a Númenórean: he hung onto life “until death took him perforce in dotage.� (Unfinished Tales, The Line of Elros) He was senile. He died when he could hold onto life no longer. That little item might have made the evening news, but I’ll bet the rumor of it made the cocktail rounds. Do you think they could have hidden that fact from the royal court or the Council of the Sceptre?

The death of Atanamir must have occurred just as it was described. It was discussed at length in this thread. But why was the poor guy clinging to life like that? Because he SAW with his own eyes that Death might be cheated. Either his father (or his uncle) lived to 500-600 and looked eternally young.

Ciryatan-Cyriatur. I agree these are different people. But where is it said that this admiral Ciryatur was the Head of the Army? He commanded the fleet, put ashore forces etc. But who won the battles? The name is missing. Just "Numenoreans". The Royal line must have been quite strong at this time, counting at least several princes eligible to lead the army. Could a simple admiral be in charge? Hardly. It was a major war after all, the first war in Numenor history. There had to be a prince at least, more likely one from the main line, at the head. Why nothing is said about him? Because he became the Witch-King.

[CrazySquirrel]

Originally Posted by Alcuin

Ok, we’re all revved up in speculative mode, but (1) the idea that Tar-Ciryatan traveled to Middle-earth in his youth is probably well-founded, but I can’t find a specific citation on that. If you have one, beat me over the head with it.

Hold your head...It is right there.

Tar-Ciryatan...He scorned the yearnings of his father, and eased the restlessness of his heart by voyaging, east, and north, and south, until he took the sceptre. (UT, the Line of Elros)

Originally Posted by Alcuin

I don’t think the guy was necessarily in the expeditionary force. I mean, what happened here? Sauron got his butt kicked and barely made it back to Barad-dûr with what remained of his personal guard. Do you really think he walked out under the bright sun (or dark of night) the very next day (or night) and said, “I’ll get that General So-and-So from the royal house! I’ll get one of these-here Nine rings, and I’ll wraith-ify him!� I’ll bet that isn’t how it went down.

This question was answered in this thread already. See above. Olmer (or Gordis?) thinks there was a peace signed, allegiance sworn by Mordor and ransom (or tribute) paid, the Ring being a part of it.

Originally Posted by Alcuin

When Tar-Ciryatan ascended the throne ... war had been over almost 170 years. That’s long enough for the original military commanders to go home, and another generation of military leaders to go to Middle-earth and take over the forts. Sauron has to concoct a plan. That takes time. He has to test it before he acts on his newly sworn enemies, the Númenóreans. (“I wonder what one of Celebrimbor’s Great Rings will do to a mortal. Hey, Khamûl ol’ buddy! C’mere! Khamûl, we’ve been friends a long time. Take this ring as a token of my esteem. By the way, you might be interested to know that this will make you an undefeatable commander and irresistible to the ladies. Oh, and I think it gives you unending life. (Better not tell him about the awful halitosis until the spell sets in.)�) That takes more time.

He-he. Poor Khamul... But you picture Sauron nicer than he actually was. Why not use a high Numenorean as a guinea pig? Why just a barbarian? Actually, the One ring was made in 1600. Sauron had all the plans ready by that time, only he wanted to play with the Elves. But, by 1693, he knew that the Elves would not be duped, so he had almost 100 years to make another plan. He decided to work on other races, so he started his war, got the Rings and immediately started to distribute them according to plan B. And I don't believe he cared one bit what exactly the effect of the ring would be on a mortal.

Originally Posted by Alcuin

The good Alvin Eriol of another of my favorite boards suggested that the Lord of the Nazgûl was the commander and governor of Umbar, and that he was probably trapped several decades after the end of the war. That sounds imminently sensible to me; I wouldn’t care to venture a guess on which of the settlements he led, but Umbar sounds fair enough. It could be any of them. He could have been visiting for studies, involved in something else entirely, on a picnic in Ithilien – we don’t know, and we’re not told. But commander and governor of a garrison sounds right to me, because that means he gets to meet and entertain the visitors. And an important, wealthy, seemingly wise and erudite visitor with a magic dingus is just the kind of intriguing fellow to tickle the fancy of a bored viceroy in a newly-constructed fortress far from home and the familiar comforts of Númenor. “A magic ring, you say? Me, King? Nah, (insert your own here: “my brother�, “my cousin�, “my nephew�, “my uncle�, “that greedy dog who gets all the lucky breaks instead of me�) is gonna be King. Whadda ya mean it makes you invisible? Everlasting life? Oh, that’s a hoot! Really … ?�

It is quite likely. And I am sure it was exactly what has happened to two other Nmumenoreans who became nazgul.

But not the Witch-King! Let us look at the nazgul. "The Witch-king, their leader, is more powerful in all ways than the others " (Letter # 210, Tolkien Letters, p.272). He is the tallest of the Nine (and funny as it seems, it is a sure indication of a higher bloodline in Tolkien's world). He is the only one who wears a crown. And he is the Captain. Now the Nine were "Kings, sorcerers and warriors of old"(Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age). We know that out of the Nine, three were Numenoreans. So what is required of the one that is their uncontested leader? I should say he was a King and a Numenorean. The other two might be governors of numenorean provinces, like Umbar. But he was a King of Numenor. All the others were his subjects.

[CrazySquirrel]

Originally Posted by Alcuin

CS,... you make a legitimate point: why didn’t the guy just kill the people between him and the royal scepter? I think Gandalf answers that question. Well, what in the world – or Middle-earth – is Gandalf talking about? “Later, if he is strong or well-meaning to begin with�? I’ll bet that’s an observation based on experience: not Gandalf’s, mind you, but knowledge that three fine noblemen of Númenor – good guys, strong people, well-meaning, perhaps even the very paragons of virtue – had fallen prey to the Rings. These three Númenóreans didn’t start out as bad guys: they were good guys. To paraphrase Gandalf a few pages later, “it might have happened to some others, even some (Dúnedain) that I have known.� Almost happened to Boromir. By the time the future Lord of the Nazgûl had sunk so low that he would have killed those between him and the throne, it was too late: the Númenóreans would probably have attacked him: it is highly unlikely that they would have accepted some 500- or 600-year old guy (who might well have smelled funny, and I don’t mean in the everyday olfactory sense) as their king. They were not so stupid – or so ignorant – that they would have forgotten what kind of enemy Sauron was. It was only Ar-Pharazôn in his boundless pride and arrogance that took Sauron back to Númenor, and then only after years of wheedling that he trusted him, and finally only the fear of death – and possibly some punishment in the next life – that he enticed the King to attack Valinor. Even at the bitter end, the Númenóreans retained some sense of who they were and what they were dealing with.

Actually I quite agree. The ring worked slowly. And the target was "good-meaning" and very strong. But all that applies to Tar-Ciryatan as well, doesn't it? I said the same thing already, above in this thread, the prey proved too strong for Sauron, a morsel too big to swallow. He could have remained "good and well-meaning" till the end of his natural lifespan. He could have surrendered the sceptre, as he should. Only he was physically unable to die. Perhaps he made everybody believe he died (a quite possible thing even in Real Life, not to speak of what one can do using sorcery). Perhaps he "died" and went away for a time...And when the Ring started to take over, he may have returned and usurped the sceptre from his son, which could pass practically unnoticed, if they were much alike. (Mmm, what a romantic story. I simply love it... ) And then he became Tar-Atanamir the Great (no problem, with his experience and power). And he was not totally evil till the Ring has devoured him and he turned wraith. Perhaps his final departure from Numenor caused this entry for 2251 "Nazgul first appear".

Originally Posted by Alcuin

He’s gotta get to him, CS. “Excuse me, your majesty. Try this on for size?�

. I don't believe getting through to the King's heir is such an impossible problem for Sau the Deceiver. He has fooled High Elves for so long, could humans be a problem? It was not necessary to tell his real name, he could have passed for anyone. And once the ring is delivered, it is so hard to part with it! Remember Isildur? He knew full well what is it he took, two other ringbearers were tugging at his sleeve, "Throw it!, "Give it to us!" But "NO, IT IS MINE!!". And Gandalf did say that no one has ever surrendered his ring willingly, before Bilbo.

Originally Posted by Alcuin

Originally Posted by CrazySquirrel "The Witch-King has taken Rhudaur even before Arthedain, and it was ruled NOT by a heir of Elendil, just by a hillman." Now, now, that was a coup d’etat, planned and arranged by the megalomaniacal Angmar. (Edit – Rhudaur was indeed originally ruled by a junior branch of the line of Eärendur, eighth and last king of the undivided Kingdom of Arnor.)

The Line of Isildur was extinct BOTH in Rhudaur and Cardolan by 1350, BEFORE the Witch-King has conquered these kingdoms.

In the days of Argeleb son of Malvegil, since no descendants of Isildur remained in the other kingdoms, the kings of Arthedain again claimed the lordship of all Arnor. The claim was resisted by Rhudaur. There the Dúnedain were few, and power had been seized by an evil lord of the Hill-men, who was in secret league with Angmar. (LOTR appendices: The North-kingdom and the Dúnedain)
Malvegil 1349, Argeleb I â€*1356 (LOTR appendices: Heirs of Isildur)

So you see, the Witchy was NOT responsible for the extinction of the line of Isildur in Cardolan and Rhudaur. Everybody blames him unjustly.

Originally Posted by Alcuin

And the Witch-King says, “Look at me! I’m king in Fornost! Whoopee!� What a megalomaniac!

. If I have become a queen of Arnor, I would have certainly said that. And that would be about all I would be able to do. As for the Witchy, he was a professional King. He has built himself a kingdom practically out of nothing in Angmar, he has conquered all of Arnor and he would have remained there and ruled it, but for this upstart Earnur. (Give me that morgul knife again, Khamul, I will teach him how to hinder me ).

Originally Posted by CrazySquirrel

"Perhaps the Witch-King would have been a better king for Arnor than all these descendants of "a ragged house long bereft of lordship and dignity." that could not keep their kingdom whole and who ruined it in perpetual squabbles between themselves.

Originally Posted by Alcuin

Said in jest, I assume. On the other hand, I am sure the Witch-King agreed whole-heartedly with those sentiments.

Not entirely. I really believe that the North line was a failure. They deserved what they got. They had let their heritage slip between their fingers. The population constantly dwindled and no wonder, as they were too haughty to intermarry with "lesser men". Annuminas was abandoned. Arnor was divided into three petty kingdoms. And all that long before Angmar appeared. There were constant civil wars and general decline. Angmar, on the other hand, became strong very quickly. And it was situated in a cold, barren place. Why? It had a better ruler, that's why.

Originally Posted by Alcuin

Did I pass?

With compliments of the Jury. How about me?

Originally Posted by Alcuin

And Crazy Squirrels always find plenty of acorns and pecans.

Amen to that. What do I wish for you? No idea. I wonder, what your name means...

You know, Alcuin, we agree on lots of points. The major difference is that I like the Witchy, while you obviously dislike him. Elvish propaganda has got you.

[Valandil]

I agree with Crazy Squirrel that the last prince of Cardolan who fell in 1409 was not descended in direct line from Isildur, because we're told that just a few years before the line of Isildur had died out in both Rhudaur and Cardolan - though I'm a bit overwhelmed by the sheer volume of postage to determine what bearing that has on the W-K's origins.

[The Witch-King of Angmar]

Originally Posted by gordis

Don't you think, Olmer it deserves a separate thread? There is quite a fan-lore about the WK. I have read Isilmo theory, Tar-Minastir theory, at least two Unidentified Prince theories and even Tol-Elmar theory. I admit Ciriatan is new to me.

I have some ideas of my own. Here they are in short.
1. I believe that the WK's real name would be erased from the records for sure (as they have done later with the poor cat-lover Beruthiel who was only guilty of not being to her hasband's tastes).
2. I believe The WK was the one who commanded the Numenorean army sent to rescue Gil-Galad around SA 1700, so at least he was a prince of the royal house.
3. I believe the elves kept all the info about the rings secret from their human rescuers and allies.
4. I believe Sauron, being defeated, swore allegiance to Numenor and gave rich tribute and gifts to Numenoreans to stop them from attacking Mordor. One of the gifts would have been an elven ring to the Numenorean commander. So Sauron practically did the same trick he repeated later with Ar-Pharazon.
What do you think of it?

Was it ever confirmed that he was a numenorian or just a man?

Otherwise there pretty good theories

[CrazySquirrel]

Originally Posted by The Witch-King of Angmar

Was it ever confirmed that he was a numenorian or just a man?

Strictly speaking no, there is no Tolkien quote stating that plainly.
But the first time Tolkien has invented the Witch King's character, he described him as "a renegade wizard from Numenor".That was before Tolkien developed the concept of Wizards being all maiar. It is in the "Return of the Shadow" HOME, I think.
And then of course, he is the tallest of the Nine, and the Captain of the Nine. And we know that 3 of the 9 were from Numenor. So most probably Witchy is a numenorean. The Second to the Chief, Khamul, was an Easterling.

[Alcuin]

Three of the Nazgûl were Númenóreans; although which three of the nine is never stated. CrazySquirrel is correct: we generally assume that the Witch-King was one of these three, and I further assumed that one of them was a member of the House of Elros.

Gordis makes good points in the quote provided by The Witch-King of Angmar. If I touch upon them,
1. Berúthiel was removed from the lists apparently because she fell into (or continued) some practice of darkness after she married Tarannon Falastur. I suppose her exile was the Gondorian equivalent of a royal divorce, and I note that a multi-generational series of wars with the old Black Númenórean kingdoms to the South followed this marital rupture. For the Númenóreans to remove the name of the Witch-King from their records in a similar manner would probably require that they knew his fate and disapproved of it.
2. The Witch-King might have been the military commander sent to Gil-galad’s succor, but it is more likely that he was a follow-on commander at one of the garrisons left behind. It’s easier for Sauron to plan his revenge and trap him that way.
3. Tolkien intimates that the Eldar kept the information about the Rings closely held. It may be that even Tar-Minastir failed to understand completely what the fighting was about. The Númenóreans were assisting the Eldar of Middle-earth as a matter of principle and in respect of their ancient alliance during the First Age. And yes, I agree that this “failure to communicate� probably made entrapping the three Númenóreans a lot easier.
4. Sauron swore no allegiance to Númenor until he humbled himself before Ar-Pharazôn at the end of the Second Age. He swore vengeance against them instead, and retreated from the coasts where the Númenóreans were strongest militarily. Had he sworn allegiance to Númenor and sent them rich gifts, the chroniclers would have noted it, and Gil-galad would have warned them against accepting either. Again, the Númenóreans knew who Sauron was in the First Age: the enemy of their ancestors, and the Maia who tried to kill Beren and who brought about the destruction of Dorthonion. Gil-galad knew who he was in the Second Age, and so did his Númenórean allies: that’s one of the main reasons the old alliance was rekindled: they faced a common, very dangerous enemy together.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Regarding WK challenging Gandalf, he didn't really have that much to lose. He couldn't be destroyed unless his Ring was. If Gandalf did deliver what would be a killer blow, he would return to Mordor, his spirit withered. There Sauron would 'rechrge' it with the Ring and he could return again a few weeks later.

[Gordis]

Love this old thread.

I have found some new facts important for Olmer's theory - one more proof for it, in fact.

We have now Hammond and Scull's very detailed chronology of all Tolkien writings. According to H&S (Companion and Chronology) "The Line of Elros" in UT is dated 'probably 1960' according to the former, and in Chronology under the entry for March 1960: '-- Other works are probably contemporary with Aldarion and Erendis (...) *The Line of Elros: Kings of Númenor...

So, you see, "the Line of Elros" is likely written before Tolkien started to revise the “Tale of Years� for the Second edition of LOTR published in 1966.

The Second edition still contained the entry "2251 Tar-Atanamir takes the sceptre. Rebellion and division of the Númenoreans begins. About this time the Nazgûl or Ringwraiths, slaves of the Nine Rings, first appear."

And the "Line of Elros" gave 2251 (corrected at an unknown time to 2221) as the time of Atanamir's death.

How could Tolkien miss this "mistake" (as Christopher calls it) in the Second Edition while he already had the "Line of Elros" written?
Seems Tolkien has indeed extended the time of Tar Ciryatan's rule in the Tale of Years quite deliberately!

[Coffeehouse]

Originally Posted by Gordis

Love this old thread.

I have found some new facts important for Olmer's theory - one more proof for it, in fact.

We have now Hammond and Scull's very detailed chronology of all Tolkien writings. According to H&S (Companion and Chronology) "The Line of Elros" in UT is dated 'probably 1960' according to the former, and in Chronology under the entry for March 1960: '-- Other works are probably contemporary with Aldarion and Erendis (...) *The Line of Elros: Kings of Númenor...

So, you see, "the Line of Elros" is likely written before Tolkien started to revise the “Tale of Years� for the Second edition of LOTR published in 1966.

The Second edition still contained the entry "2251 Tar-Atanamir takes the sceptre. Rebellion and division of the Númenoreans begins. About this time the Nazgûl or Ringwraiths, slaves of the Nine Rings, first appear."

And the "Line of Elros" gave 2251 (corrected at an unknown time to 2221) as the time of Atanamir's death.

How could Tolkien miss this "mistake" (as Christopher calls it) in the Second Edition while he already had the "Line of Elros" written?
Seems Tolkien has indeed extended the time of Tar Ciryatan's rule in the Tale of Years quite deliberately!

Ah.. the true identity of the Witch-King.
Well, my guess is he was my Secret Santa a few years back. I could be mistaken of course.

[Kennashi]

Tom Bombadil. Thread closed.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Kennashi

Tom Bombadil. Thread closed.

Do you know, by the way, that the "Tom as the WK" theory you are referring to has a continuation: "Goldberry as Galadriel"?