Why did the Ring betray Isildur?

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Originally Posted by gordis

Well, why then didn't the elves search for Isildur's body? If it was possible for Saruman to find Isildurs bones a couple of millenia since the event (see UT) it must have been easy to find it shortly after the disaster at Gladden. But they have not found it, so they have not searched for the Ring. If at this time the elves believed that it were VITAL to DESTROY the Ring they would have spent all their immortal lives diving at the Gladden. But they just left the Ring there, because they believed that it was well HIDDEN in the Anduin. Of course, they would have preferred it hidden in Imladris or in the Grey havens but they decided Anduin will do. And they started happily using the Three.

They didn't search for it because they feared the Ring. The elves, if any upon ME, knew the true power of the Ring. If that Ring had fallen into the hands of a powerful elf ie, Elrond, Galadriel, then the problem they just got rid of could arise again. Also Lorien was behind as it staes in UT and Imladris far ahead. They manner of Isildurs death was probably not dead and I suspect the orcs made a burning or something similar to get rid of the bodies. It also states in UT that the orcs were afraid to attack Isildur who was wearing the Elendillmir so is Isildur had been killed on the battle field, then the orcs would have plundered his treasures.

[Valandil]

Originally Posted by Olmer

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Glad to find at least one person, who sees the picture far above the framed part. Welcome to the Moot!

Yes gordis, glad to have you here. Olmer is usually standing all alone with his perspective on things - and it's nice to see someone come around who agrees with at least some of what he espouses.

Olmer - I've begun work on a little more of my 'histories' - nothing really finished to show yet, some outlines and the beginning of a story - but I AM moving on it.

[Gordis]

As I told in my previous message, there are some Olmer's points that I can't accept.
And one of them is putting the blame of Isildur's death on Elrond.

First of all, do not forget where Isildur was going: to Imladris! If Elrond wanted Isildur dead, it would have been much easier to murder him there. But, though I am not too fond of Galadriel, still I have a high respect for Elrond. I don't think him capable of base treachery. What were Elrond's feelings at the time of the Disaster at Gladden? Elrond might have wished to keep the ring himself or to give it to Galadriel or Cirdan for keeping. He certainly understood the danger of leaving it in Isildur's hands, danger both to the bearers of the Three and to Isildur himself. He might have WISHED Isildur dead. But from that to actually murdering the man himself ...I don't imagine Elrond in this role.

Originally Posted by Olmer

Who can say with certainty that the Ring betrayed Isildur? Somebody, who stayed nearby. And since Elrond was so certain, it must be him, who saw the whole incident. .

In UT "The disaster of the Gladden Fields" there is a chapter "The sources of the legend..."
telling that there were eyewitnesses to the fight (Ochtar and his companion, Elendur's esquire, who heard the words of Isildur and Elendur at their parting and some late Woodmen rescuers). "The story of the last hours of Isildur and death was due to surmise: but well-founded. The legend in its full form was not composed until the reign of Elessar in the Fourth age, when other evidence was discovered. Up to then it had been known, firstly, that Isildur had the ring, secondly that his sword etc. had been found on the bank above the Gladden, thirdly that there have been orcs at the western bank armed with bows, and fourthly, that Isildur and the ring separately or together must have been lost in the river"

At the time of the counsel (Oct.3018) Elrond knew that the Ring had been found in the river but no traces of Isildur were found. So, he surmised that Isildur lost his ring in the water.
-Why "the ring has betrayed him"? - A surmise again, but quite plausible. Didn't it betray Gollum? And the ring must have hated Isildur.
So there are no reasons to believe Elrond to be a secret eyewitness to Isildur's death or even his murderer.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Valandil

Yes gordis, glad to have you here. Olmer is usually standing all alone with his perspective on things - and it's nice to see someone come around who agrees with at least some of what he espouses.

Thank you for your welcome! I like Olmer's approach of not taking things at face value. Though, I am afraid, Olmer will be disappointed by my last post

[Valandil]

Originally Posted by gordis

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So there are no reasons to believe Elrond to be a secret eyewitness to Isildur's death or even his murderer.

I have speculated at times about the possibility that the bearers of the Three may have been somewhat aware of the actions of one who was wearing the One. At least - Celebrimbor became aware of Sauron as soon as he put the One on for the first time.

This doesn't seem to be borne out though, in Gollum, Bilbo and Frodo bearing or using the One. The keepers of the Three (one of whom was even Gandalf) don't seem aware of their actions. Of course - they were not Celebrimbor and had not made the Three - so maybe they were not even 'in tune with' what the Three were telling them of the One. Perhaps Elrond could have become aware of Isildur's plight though, because of the duress that Isildur was under - and maybe even because of his association with the man.

Anyway - that seems another good opportunity for a 'source' of what happened to Isildur, but Tolkien doesn't mention it.

And gordis - don't worry about Olmer. I don't think he'll mind that you're not in COMPLETE agreement with him. I imagine it's very cheering for him to have someone who even shares a part of his perspective on these matters.

Something you said earlier makes me wonder though... regardless of for what useage, why would the Elves NOT have searched extensively in that part of the Gladden for the One - it became apparent that Isildur had likely been lost there even in year 3 of Third Age - when he was a no-show at Rivendell. It's not the sort of thing I expect they would just want to leave lying around for whomever might find it.

I just see that as more of a 'gap' in Tolkien's history though - not so much an Elf-conspiracy.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Telcontar_Dunedain

They didn't search for it because they feared the Ring. The elves, if any upon ME, knew the true power of the Ring. If that Ring had fallen into the hands of a powerful elf ie, Elrond, Galadriel, then the problem they just got rid of could arise again..

That may be a good point, as at that time nobody has heard of hobbits and their ring-proofness. But on the other hand Gil-Galad and Galadriel and Cirdan resisted the temptation to wear their rings (the Three) for about 2000 yours. They could have assumed that they would be able to resist the urge of wielding the One as well.

Originally Posted by Telcontar_Dunedain

Also Lorien was behind as it staes in UT and Imladris far ahead..

I can't understand what you mean, sorry

Originally Posted by Telcontar_Dunedain

They manner of Isildurs death was probably not dead and I suspect the orcs made a burning or something similar to get rid of the bodies. It also states in UT that the orcs were afraid to attack Isildur who was wearing the Elendillmir so is Isildur had been killed on the battle field, then the orcs would have plundered his treasures.

In my previous long message I quoted UT about the sources of the legend of Isildur's death.
And if the Elves had any reason to believe that ORCS had plundered Isildur's body, then they would have chased them to the far corners of ME, even going to war again to get the Ring. No, they had reasons to think that the Ring was in the river, and that suited them, more or less.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Originally Posted by gordis

That may be a good point, as at that time nobody has heard of hobbits and their ring-proofness. But on the other hand Gil-Galad and Galadriel and Cirdan resisted the temptation to wear their rings (the Three) for about 2000 yours. They could have assumed that they would be able to resist the urge of wielding the One as well.

But the power of the three was not in temptation and that was one of the One's main powers.

I can't understand what you mean, sorry

I mean that it would have taken them a long while to get to either, and Rivendell was the obvious choice because of their friendship and kinship with Elrond, but it took Ohtar a long while to reach Rivendell, they would have known that by then if the One was just lying around it would be found.

In my previous long message I quoted UT about the sources of the legend of Isildur's death.
And if the Elves had any reason to believe that ORCS had plundered Isildur's body, then they would have chased them to the far corners of ME, even going to war again to get the Ring. No, they had reasons to think that the Ring was in the river, and that suited them, more or less.

And how would they know where to look? Orcs were still numerous upon ME . It would be an impossible task.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Valandil

I have speculated at times about the possibility that the bearers of the Three may have been somewhat aware of the actions of one who was wearing the One. At least - Celebrimbor became aware of Sauron as soon as he put the One on for the first time.
This doesn't seem to be borne out though, in Gollum, Bilbo and Frodo bearing or using the One. The keepers of the Three (one of whom was even Gandalf) don't seem aware of their actions. Of course - they were not Celebrimbor and had not made the Three - so maybe they were not even 'in tune with' what the Three were telling them of the One. Perhaps Elrond could have become aware of Isildur's plight though, because of the duress that Isildur was under - and maybe even because of his association with the man. Anyway - that seems another good opportunity for a 'source' of what happened to Isildur, but Tolkien doesn't mention it.

A very good idea, Valandil! The three ring-bearers must have felt Isildur's fear and probably could see the incident itself like Galadriel in her mirror.
As for the Ring-detection issues in Hobbit and LOTR, I have typed a long answer, but I realize it has nothing to do with Isildur. Where may I post it?

Originally Posted by Valandil

Something you said earlier makes me wonder though... regardless of for what useage, why would the Elves NOT have searched extensively in that part of the Gladden for the One - it became apparent that Isildur had likely been lost there even in year 3 of Third Age - when he was a no-show at Rivendell. It's not the sort of thing I expect they would just want to leave lying around for whomever might find it. I just see that as more of a 'gap' in Tolkien's history though - not so much an Elf-conspiracy. .

I think, there are two possible approaches to Tolkien discussion. One is the LITERARY APPROACH when you look at LOTR, UT etc. as fiction books. Which they are, of course. The best examples of this approach are Christopher Tolkien's comments.
From this POV you are totally correct. Tolkien has never published the UT, so there are some loose ends. I think that when Tolkien wrote about Saruman's finding of Isildur's bones, he did not see the implication: that it proved that the elves had not looked in the river.
I have nothing against this approach, only I am not overmuch interested in it. Much more appealing to me is the HISTORICAL APPROACH. Here we try to treat LOTR and UT as historical sources. Tolkien himself loved to play the game. He had LOTR and The Hobbit published and was filling the gaps and finding explanations in his later writings. He was trying not to contradict published sources, but only to expand them. From this POV the above explanation of elves's inactivity does not apply. We have to assume that either the elves were very lazy or there was a conspiracy.

[Valandil]

Originally Posted by gordis

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I have nothing against this approach, only I am not overmuch interested in it. Much more appealing to me is the HISTORICAL APPROACH. Here we try to treat LOTR and UT as historical sources. Tolkien himself loved to play the game. He had LOTR and The Hobbit published and was filling the gaps and finding explanations in his later writings. He was trying not to contradict published sources, but only to expand them. From this POV the above explanation of elves's inactivity does not apply. We have to assume that either the elves were very lazy or there was a conspiracy.

That's exactly the POV that Olmer takes!

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Telcontar_Dunedain

But the power of the three was not in temptation and that was one of the One's main powers.

I am not so sure. Why would Sauron make the One Ring more tempting than the others? He made it for himself only, so tempting others was not a desired quality of the Ring.
All the objects of power were a great temptation to everyone around (Silmarils, Nauglamir, Arkenston, the palantiri). I think ALL the rings of Power were a temptation, not only the One and the Nine. Train died in Dol Guldur forgetting everything exept the Ring he once posessed.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Valandil

That's exactly the POV that Olmer takes!

Well, so be it!

BTW, Valandil, I have posted my reply to your ring-detection question in the other tread, about the "Shadow of the past" chapter.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Originally Posted by gordis

I am not so sure. Why would Sauron make the One Ring more tempting than the others? He made it for himself only, so tempting others was not a desired quality of the Ring.
All the objects of power were a great temptation to everyone around (Silmarils, Nauglamir, Arkenston, the palantiri). I think ALL the rings of Power were a temptation, not only the One and the Nine. Train died in Dol Guldur forgetting everything exept the Ring he once posessed.

But you didn't see elves fighting over the Three or the Dwarves over the seven or even Men over the Nine. I don't think it was the Nine that tempted the futre Nazgûl's anyway, IMO it was power that Sauron used to seduce them not the Rings. The Rings were just something that would increase their power. And that IMO is what the Ring was symbolic of, power and that's what it gave the bearer if they desired it. The three were used differently as were the seven. The three were Rings used for healing and the seven for treasures.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Telcontar_Dunedain

But you didn't see elves fighting over the Three or the Dwarves over the seven or even Men over the Nine. I don't think it was the Nine that tempted the futre Nazgûl's anyway, IMO it was power that Sauron used to seduce them not the Rings. The Rings were just something that would increase their power. And that IMO is what the Ring was symbolic of, power and that's what it gave the bearer if they desired it. The three were used differently as were the seven. The three were Rings used for healing and the seven for treasures.

I still believe that all the rings were tempting the ones around to seize them and the bearers to wield them.

The three were less tempting than the One just because they were less powerful. I ask again why would Sauron make his very own precious Master ring tempting? It was not meant to ensnare any others. He never wished to part with it, he never expected to loose it. He just could not help it being tempting to others. And why would Feanor make the Silmarils or the Palantiri tempting? He could not help it either. And the bloodbath around the Silmarils was greater than that around the rings just because they were more powerful and therefore more tempting.

Yes, we have not seen Elves fight over the Three. But we have not seen Elves fight over the One either. They were able to resist the temptation, but it does not mean they were not tempted. They may have resisted the temptation of the Three. Galadriel kept Nenya invisible on her finger. Why? Who could have seen it but the elves of Lorien? And we can't be sure that nobody has ever tried to seize her ring. We know very little of the history of the rings, nothing about the early history of the Nine, nothing about the 6 out of the Seven.
And about the 9 Rings: surely Nazgul were tempted not by shiny thingies but by the power the rings contained. The same is true for the One: Boromir coveted not a nice-looking golden ring, but the Power he needed to defend Gondor. I see no difference in these cases.

[Olmer]

Originally Posted by gordis

But that does not mean that I agree with ALL your points.
And I agree that the ME history as it came to us is very Elf-centered.

No need to agree. What makes a conversation interesting is an expression of different points of view.
I welcome disagreements, as long as they backed up by quotes from the books and not by the categorical words "Tolkien did not mean THAT!", because Tolkien did not know himself what did he mean by writing this or that.
But one thing should be definitely clarified : Tolkien DID mean to have his work as a history, which , as he felt, had been “imperfectly” “recorded” by him, as he was “translating” it from hobbit’s point of view.

Originally Posted by gordis

And what exactly do you hint at? That after she let Frodo depart from Lorien she has reconsidered and decided to get the ring after all?

She has never reconsidered. Remember, her plan has been different from the White Council. Unfortunately, she got overrun by majorities, but she never gave up an idea. She simply did not have an opportunity.
And suddenly such chance just fell down on her lap! Gandalf , an appointed overseer of the quest, got out of the picture right in the time, when the Ring arrived in Lorien. And she is taking the reins in her hands, improvising on the run She wants to preserve the Ring, but at the same time she does not want to give Sauron a reason to suspect that the Ring is in Lorien’s safekeeping. . Her plan is elegant and deceitful. She detains the Fellowship for a whole month (and this is when the whole mission was relayed on secrecy and speed). In mean time the important information about the last bivouac of the Fellowship had been “slipped out” to the ears of enemies.

Originally Posted by gordis

If it was possible for Saruman to find Isildurs bones a couple of millenia since the event (see UT) it must have been easy to find it shortly after the disaster at Gladden. But they have not found it, so they have not searched for the Ring. If at this time the elves believed that it were VITAL to DESTROY the Ring they would have spent all their immortal lives diving at the Gladden.

You have a very valid point over here. Never thought from this angle.
One more point to believe that something was not ” kosher” in the whole business of Isildur’s death.

Originally Posted by gordis

First of all, do not forget where Isildur was going: to Imladris! If Elrond wanted Isildur dead, it would have been much easier to murder him there. But, though I am not too fond of Galadriel, still I have a high respect for Elrond. I don't think him capable of base treachery.

If it would happen in Imladris, it would rise up a lot of questions. Besides, the Rings whereabouts would be easily pinpointed.
I really sympathize with Elrond, because his role in the elves-men struggle is not easy one. He is the most contradictive and tragic figure in ME. Less inclined to the power lust, he, probably, understood the danger of the Ring better, than so sure of her own resistance to it Galadriel, but being not 100% elf and just Gil-Galad’s herald, he was not the one who had the last word to say. After the death of Gil-Galad he became independent in his little realm, but Galadriel found the way to order him around. Interesting to note that no more than a hundred years later after the incident on the Gladden Fields he is taking for wife Celebrian, daughter of high and mighty Noldorin princess . For more than 1600 years his love had been unrequited, and all of the sudden such change of heart. What did he do for snobbish Galadriel to get such privilege?

Originally Posted by gordis

In UT "The disaster of the Gladden Fields" there is a chapter "The sources of the legend..."
telling that there were eyewitnesses to the fight (Ochtar and his companion, Elendur's esquire, who heard the words of Isildur and Elendur at their parting and some late Woodmen rescuers). "The story of the last hours of Isildur and death was due to surmise: but well-founded. So there are no reasons to believe Elrond to be a secret eyewitness to Isildur's death or even his murderer

About the unfortunate role of Ohtar and Estelmo I already wrote somewhere here on the board almost an essay: too many things don’t add up in
theirs ordeals. I have reason to believe that they had been brought to Imladris and not by their own will.

Originally Posted by gordis

But on the other hand Gil-Galad and Galadriel and Cirdan resisted the temptation to wear their rings (the Three) for about 2000 yours. They could have assumed that they would be able to resist the urge of wielding the One as well.

And it will be a very well founded assumption, because Gandalf handled this ring TWICE without any ill effects for him.

Originally Posted by Valandil

I have speculated at times about the possibility that the bearers of the Three may have been somewhat aware of the actions of one who was wearing the One.

Interesting. And plausible. Even if they perceived through the Rings, they wouldn’t broadcast such source of information.
Nevertheless, if they were so much aware of Isildur’s strife it doesn’t explain theirs inactivity and unwillingness to help.

Originally Posted by Valandil

This doesn't seem to be borne out though, in Gollum, Bilbo and Frodo bearing or using the One. The keepers of the Three (one of whom was even Gandalf) don't seem aware of their actions

I think because the Ring for quite long time was cooling off, loosing power and potency

Valandil, I am glad that you decided on to “widen horizons” of yours “Letters” of Arthedain history. Coming as through the eyes of witness of the last days of Northern kingdom, it gives for the rise and fall of Arnor more dimensional view and more feeling . I think that Tolkien dedicated undeservingly little time for the history of the northern descendants of Numenorians. Based on Tolkien text, you are extending the information about such intriguing subject. I think some day it would be a very good source of information for some people, who wouldn’t be satisfied with just a couple of pages in the Appendix.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Originally Posted by gordis

I still believe that all the rings were tempting the ones around to seize them and the bearers to wield them.

The three were less tempting than the One just because they were less powerful. I ask again why would Sauron make his very own precious Master ring tempting? It was not meant to ensnare any others. He never wished to part with it, he never expected to loose it. He just could not help it being tempting to others. And why would Feanor make the Silmarils or the Palantiri tempting? He could not help it either. And the bloodbath around the Silmarils was greater than that around the rings just because they were more powerful and therefore more tempting.

Yes, we have not seen Elves fight over the Three. But we have not seen Elves fight over the One either. They were able to resist the temptation, but it does not mean they were not tempted. They may have resisted the temptation of the Three. Galadriel kept Nenya invisible on her finger. Why? Who could have seen it but the elves of Lorien? And we can't be sure that nobody has ever tried to seize her ring. We know very little of the history of the rings, nothing about the early history of the Nine, nothing about the 6 out of the Seven.
And about the 9 Rings: surely Nazgul were tempted not by shiny thingies but by the power the rings contained. The same is true for the One: Boromir coveted not a nice-looking golden ring, but the Power he needed to defend Gondor. I see no difference in these cases.

I agree with you that the One was tempting because it was powerful, and that also was one of it's main powers. The three however, I do not thing were tempting. They did not have 'power' in the same sense that the One did. Their power was in healing and preserving. Yes they wer the most powerful of all the Rings wrought by the elves, but their power was not in wealth or war but in enrichingtheir dwellings, healing the hurts of the world and preservation.

Originally Posted by Elrond

But theywere not made as weapons of war or conquest: this is not their power. Those who made them did not desire strngth or domination or hoarded wealth, but understanding, making, and healing, to preserve all things unstained.

This is spoken by Elrond to Gloin at the Council of Elrond, explaining the power of the three. Also the three were hidden. Few knew who the bearers were. The elves didn't want the kinslayings to happen again. Elond and Galadriel at least knew the damage that they could bring, both had been present at least one (Galadriel all three) and ddin't want history to repeat itself with the Rings.

[Valandil]

Originally Posted by Telcontar_Dunedain

I agree with you that the One was tempting because it was powerful, and that also was one of it's main powers. The three however, I do not thing were tempting. They did not have 'power' in the same sense that the One did. Their power was in healing and preserving. Yes they wer the most powerful of all the Rings wrought by the elves, but their power was not in wealth or war but in enrichingtheir dwellings, healing the hurts of the world and preservation.


This is spoken by Elrond to Gloin at the Council of Elrond, explaining the power of the three. Also the three were hidden. Few knew who the bearers were. The elves didn't want the kinslayings to happen again. Elond and Galadriel at least knew the damage that they could bring, both had been present at least one (Galadriel all three) and ddin't want history to repeat itself with the Rings.

You're contradicting yourself TD. I'd say the Three WERE possibly tempting, which is why they were hidden and the identity of their bearers was kept a secret.

I also think the Seven were probably tempting - the Dwarves jealously guarded the knowledge of who held them, such that None among them knew that Thror had given his to Thrain before he set off for Moria.

I can sure imagine that the Nine were tempting - and that their bearers perhaps had some challenges to their ownership in the days they were still somewhat human. However - their rings also made them powerful enough to win out - and likely twisted them into being plenty suspicious of those around them who might be interested in 'taking over' - in fact, they likely would have become somewhat paranoid and made sure to get rid of anyone who even gave them the slightest perceived hint that they might be a threat (and perhaps even opened their minds a bit to the wearer, such that he would know for sure if they DID intend to try something funny).

I think that all the Rings of Power would have been likely sources of temptation.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Originally Posted by Valandil

You're contradicting yourself TD.

Oops. Sorry.

I'd say the Three WERE possibly tempting, which is why they were hidden and the identity of their bearers was kept a secret.

That may not be the only reason they were kept secret. Sauron's spies were numerous, and the elves would have also been wary of betrayal. If Sauron knew that Elrond was the bearer of one of the Three and that the One would soo be arriving in Rivendell he'd make a pretty quick assault on Rivendell, similarly with Lorien.

I also think the Seven were probably tempting - the Dwarves jealously guarded the knowledge of who held them, such that None among them knew that Thror had given his to Thrain before he set off for Moria.

But the Seven gave wealth to the bearer. IMO the wealt the seven gave would not just pass to the bearer but its power would make the kingdom wealthier and the kingdoms people wealthier aswell as just the bearer.

I can sure imagine that the Nine were tempting - and that their bearers perhaps had some challenges to their ownership in the days they were still somewhat human. However - their rings also made them powerful enough to win out - and likely twisted them into being plenty suspicious of those around them who might be interested in 'taking over' - in fact, they likely would have become somewhat paranoid and made sure to get rid of anyone who even gave them the slightest perceived hint that they might be a threat (and perhaps even opened their minds a bit to the wearer, such that he would know for sure if they DID intend to try something funny).

Well what the powers of the Nine? Do we know? If not then we can not say for definite that they were or weren't tempting.

I think that all the Rings of Power would have been likely sources of temptation.

But to different people. I can't imagine Boromir chasing after one of the Three which preserved the land, or an elf chasing after one of the seven.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Telcontar_Dunedain

But theywere not made as weapons of war or conquest: this is not their power. Those who made them did not desire strngth or domination or hoarded wealth, but understanding, making, and healing, to preserve all things unstained.

This is spoken by Elrond to Gloin at the Council of Elrond, explaining the power of the three.

I am afraid Elrond was too tight-lipped when speaking at the Counsil (and understandably so). He did cause the flood at the Ford, with the help of Gandalf. That was clearly Ring-magic. Galadriel warded off attacks from Dol Guldur. And Gandalf fought the 9 nazgul at Weathertop (with lightning) and he killed the Barlog. Perhaps the rings were more defensive than offensive weapons, but weapons they were. The three (Nenya in particular) also enabled the bearer to make palantiri-like devices (the Mirror of Galadriel), to forsee the future to some extent and to "kindle hearts" (Narya). ANYONE would be tempted to have these abilities. But you are right, the main power of the Three was "to preserve all things unstained", to slow the time, to prevent Elves's fading These powers were extremely tempting specifically for Elves. Men or Dwarves or orcs were not concerned with these problems. Though for a man possessing one of the Three meant immortality, and perhaps one not resulting in wraithdom. Not tempting eh ?

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Olmer

I really sympathize with Elrond, because his role in the elves-men struggle is not easy one. He is the most contradictive and tragic figure in ME. Less inclined to the power lust, he, probably, understood the danger of the Ring better, than so sure of her own resistance to it Galadriel, but being not 100% elf and just Gil-Galad’s herald, he was not the one who had the last word to say. After the death of Gil-Galad he became independent in his little realm, but Galadriel found the way to order him around. Interesting to note that no more than a hundred years later he is taking for wife Celebrian, daughter of high and mighty Noldorin princess . For more than 1600 years his love had been unrequited, and all of the sudden such change of heart. What did he do for snobbish Galadriel to get such privilege? .

Elrond-Celebrian match was hardly a misalliance. Elrond was Lord of Imladris from SA 1700. In TA he had Vilya. True, he was not 100% elf, but he was a descendent of Melian the Maia, Galadriel's former Queen, as well as Earendil and Elwing. I should say he was eligible for any elf-maid (should I say "she-elf"? ). Yes, Elrond waited very long before proposing to Celebrian, but Elves do not beget children and so probably do not marry in troubled times, so no wonder they had to wait till Sauron's defeat. And Elrond married Celebrian 107 years after Isildur's death, not next year, so the two events do not seem connected.

Originally Posted by Olmer

Gandalf handled this ring TWICE without any ill effects for him. .

Gandalf actually had the Ring in his keeping for 76 years! I think he knew (or strongly suspected) what it was. He kept it hidden in a hobbit hole in the Shire but was able to get it for himself anytime, practically unhindered. I think by 3018 he felt sorely tempted by the Ring (Do not tempt me, Frodo!). I am not so sure that the Ring had no ill effects on him. As well as Bilbo before him, Gandalf LIED about the ring (withheld information at least). Perhaps it was the influence of the Ring that prevented him to tell about it to his colleagues from the White Counsil, not only Saruman, but the others as well. Normally he should have told at least Elrond and Galadriel (whom he said he trusted) about a strange unidentified ring loose in the word, but he didn't. Otherwise the ring would have been taken to Rivendell years ago (just in case it was the One). Surely in the summer 3018 when the 9 nazgul passed by Lorien asking everyone about the Shire Galadriel would have reacted immediately.

Originally Posted by Olmer

She has never reconsidered... .

Here I am not convinced, but I have to think and to check things before replying.

For now I want to establish the list of the charges against Galadriel that you have put forward. They are scattered in various treads, so please check and tell me if I've missed (or misinterpreted) anything.

Case: Olmer against Galadriel:

1. At the time of Isildur's death, Galadriel wanted to KEEP the ring herself without wielding it, in order to be able to use Nenya. Therefore she ordered Elrond to kill Isildur and bring her the Ring
2. In TA 3018 she still wanted to keep the One Ring, but wanted to get it without anyone noticing, especially to keep it secret from Elrond, the Fellowship, Sauron and Saruman.
3. At the time of the War of the Rings Galadriel was the most interested person in all the ME to keep the One Ring safe (except Sauron himself). With Nenya she has accomplished more than anybody else and with the destruction of the One all will be lost.
4. She was ready to sacrifice all of Gondor to Mordor to acheive her ends. She probably presumed that after the war with Gondor, Mordor would be weakened and would not attack Lorien for some time.
5. In the second half of the TA Lorien provided food for Moria orcs in exchange for gems and mithril.
6. Galadriel let all the orcs (200+) pursuing the fellowship pass through Lorien.
7. Galadriel detained the Fellowship for a whole month (and this is when the whole mission was relayed on secrecy and speed).
8. Galadriel “slipped out” the information about the last bivouac of the Fellowship to the ears of enemies: Sauron and Saruman (?)
9. Galadriel sent a secret company of Lorien Elves to get the Ring from Frodo at Part Galen

As far as I understand, the events at Part Galen seem staged to you because:

1. Three different companies of orcs converged at the same spot.
2.The number of Moria orcs is the same before Lorien and in Rohan (200)
3. Sauron sent 40 orcs while Saruman sent 80.
4 The nazgul remained on the other shore of the Anduin and never intervened in the fight

Is that right, Olmer?

[me9996]

The ring ment to be found so it sliped from Isildors grasp, thus killing him.