Character analysis: Eöl, Maeglin

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Originally Posted by Beren3000

I think he really did love her. He was too zealous and fervent in his attempts to prove otherwise. I could see SGH's point about his mixing love and infatuation, but I'm not so sure about it!

I think that he loved her to begin with but as time passed by he loved the thought of her and the thought of what he would gain if he were to wed her.

[Sister Golden Hair]

I think it was probably more lust than love.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Probably in the end but I think in the beginning he did love her.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally Posted by Radagast The Brown

Although I do agree that it might not have been the most lawful decidsion - Tolkein doesn't say anything about kinslaying in that part, nor saying that it was somehow wrong. And it also seemed to me like everyone knew Eöl deserved to die - since Idril and Aredhel begged Turgon not to kill him... I think all Gondolin thought he deserves to die.
I don't think that this kinslaying bounds him to the doom of Manods, as he didn't do it to get the Silmarils, like all the other 3 kinslaying. (sounds logical to me...)

Well, the Doom of Mandos was not laid on the Noldor for trying to get the Silmarils, but for the Kinslaying in their persuit of Morgoth and the Silmarils. Surely the Doom of Mandos would still be bound tighter around them for the slaying of Eol. Tolkien does mention the Kinslaying in that part, but it is more in reference to Maeglin's feeling toward Idril than Eol's death.

It says:

Idril loved Maeglin not at all; and knowing his thought of her she loved him the less. For it seemed to her a thing strange and crooked in him, as indeed the Eldar ever since have deemed it: an evil fruit of the Kinslaying, whereby the shadow of the curse of Mandos fell upon the last hope of the Noldor.

[Earniel]

Originally Posted by Artanis

Discussion about Eöl:
Did he love Aredhel?

I think he did, but in a possessive, dictating sort of way. But when she had given him an heir; when time passed and other things drew his attention I think he saw her more as a possession, a fine and beautiful jewel that he had conquered than his wife.

Why did he come to shun the light of day?

He had walked around in the Twilight before the Sun. I believe it is said somewhere that most Eldar still prefer the stars to the sunlight, in Eöl this sentiment was perhaps even stronger. Eöl always struck me as a sort achetype of the Elves that remained in Middle-earth but did not belong to Thingol's people.

What do you think about his grudge against the Noldor? Can you sympathise with it?

I think I can see the reasons for his grudge. To him the Noldor would be little more than invaders. Not only did they kill his kin in Alqualondë but here they came, acting all high and mighty (and for a proud Elf like Eöl I'm sure that must have struck the wrong cord) and taking lands that Eöl considered not theirs for the taking.

Was he just a bad, evil villain, or did he have some good sides?

I don't think Maeglin was evil. Pride was his downfall, as so many others before and after him but I don't think he was necesarily evil.

Did he love Idril, or was she just a way to gain more power in Gondolin?

Interesting, this parallel between Maeglin's and his father's choice of women. Both desired women that were not 'meant' for them. Aredhel was just to different in personality and kin from Eöl to have made their marriage work longer than it did. And Idril was too close kin for ever being able to marry Maeglin. Between the two I think Maeglin loved Idril more than Eöl loved Aredhel although the motive to gain more power through her may have been unconciously present. But IMO Maeglin loved more the beauty and light of Idril than herself. The poor boy has spend too much of his life in shadow.

Do you feel sorry for him?

I always had the feeling that Maeglin's whole life was a sort of continuous battle against Fate. He was his father's son and even by escaping to Gondolin he could not escape from that legacy. He was a child of two worlds, the twilight world of Nan Elmoth and the sunlit world of Gondolin. He could not be content in either of them.

I always saw a sort of parallel too between the way Túrin was followed by doom everywhere he went and the way Fate had inmeshed Maeglin in a situation in which each of his decisions created new, negative consequences: his flight to Gondolin ended in his mother's death, his love for Idril gave Morgoth an opening to get Maeglin where he wanted, ect....

I think Maeglin is a true tragic figure and in that prospect I do feel sorry for him.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

I see his paralell with Turin but Turin fought it better and never sold anyone to the enemy.

[Earniel]

Originally Posted by Telcontar_Dunedain

I see his paralell with Turin but Turin fought it better and never sold anyone to the enemy.

I'm not sure whether Túrin fought it better. His refusal to destroy the bridge of Norgothrond condemned that city as well as Maeglin's betrayal condemned Gondolin. And he left Finduilas to her fate (granted, due to the spell of the dragon) to go on a useless quest for his kin.

[Radagast The Brown]

I casn't really see him battling his fate. He went to Gondolin, and betrayed Gondoloin, which is in both cases his choice. He loved his mother more... So I don't really understsad nwhat you're saying in 'He was his father's son' (Guess it's my Englsih).

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally Posted by Radagast The Brown

I casn't really see him battling his fate. He went to Gondolin, and betrayed Gondoloin, which is in both cases his choice. He loved his mother more... So I don't really understsad nwhat you're saying in 'He was his father's son' (Guess it's my Englsih).

It's a figure of speech RTB, meaning he was like his father.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Originally Posted by Eärniel

I'm not sure whether Túrin fought it better. His refusal to destroy the bridge of Norgothrond condemned that city as well as Maeglin's betrayal condemned Gondolin. And he left Finduilas to her fate (granted, due to the spell of the dragon) to go on a useless quest for his kin.

Even so he never killed one of his own kin because they didn't share his views whereas Maeglin tried to kill Idril and Earendi.l

[Radagast The Brown]

Originally Posted by Sister Golden Hair

It's a figure of speech RTB, meaning he was like his father.

Oh.

Originally Posted by TD

Even so he never killed one of his own kin because they didn't share his views whereas Maeglin tried to kill Idril and Earendi.l

He didn't try to kill Idril, not sure about Earendil (probably did try to kill him!).

Yet, I don't think Turin actualyl tried to fight his Fate; seems like he did everything Glaurong wanted him to do, and did exactly the opposite of what others wanted - like to go back to Doriath, or destroy the wide bridge on the Narog.

[Artanis]

Originally Posted by Radagast The Brown

He didn't try to kill Idril, not sure about Earendil (probably did try to kill him!).

He did try to kill Eärendil in the most cruel way, planning to cast him from the city walls to the fire below, and he tried to drag Idril with him because he wanted her to watch her son die. This was something he did out of his own will, it was not expected of him by Morgoth. I really don't understand - how would he expect to gain even the slightest goodwill from Idril after this?

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Well surely that makes him evil then.

[Radagast The Brown]

Originally Posted by Telcontar_Dunedain

Well surely that makes him evil then.

For me it seems like he wasn't really evil until the later stages... he became 'evil' somewhere between Hurin/Huor and Tuor coming to Gondolin. I'm not sure it's his fault, for doing some things.. he couldn't not love Idril, which led him to the awful treachery. But about what Artanis said, now that's just gross. So I agree.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

But I still think that he did love her to begin with with bt then as Eol with Aredhel it became more of a lust.

[Artanis]

[QUOTE=Radagast The Brown]For me it seems like he wasn't really evil until the later stages... QUOTE]I think you are right. It is really so sad, because despite of the deaths of his parents I think he could have become happy in Gondolin, if it wasn't for the love/lust he bore for Idril. It was the hopelessness of this love which turned his heart to darkness. Maeglin is such a tragic figure.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Not all deeds he commited whilst in Gondolin were evil. He was high in Turgon's councils and forged the Seventh and Great Gate.

[Radagast The Brown]

Originally Posted by Telcontar_Dunedain

Not all deeds he commited whilst in Gondolin were evil. He was high in Turgon's councils and forged the Seventh and Great Gate.

No, no indeed. It's exactly my point though, if you read my post - that he wasn't always evil.

[Sister Golden Hair]

IMO, Maeglin did not begin evil, but was torn between mother and father. This is shown in Aradhel's bringing him to Gondolin and Eol 's placing him in the middle when confronting Turgon. It says that he loved his mother best, so he chose Gondolin. In his torn state I think Idril was a bright spot in the dark for him. He was carried away with this, and thus it brought Gondolin to a tragic end.

Enough of my physco analysis.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

I think that sums it up well.