Bill Ferny: Man or Hobbit

[Haradrim]

I have learned from Tolkien that a lot of it depends upon the wording of the prophecy or command. It is kind of funny how many circumstances of that there are.

[BeardofPants]

Guys, guys.... The blade that merry used to take out the witchking's knee wasn't a normal blade. It was a special blade that could be used to un-knit the spells that bound the witchking (remember, they were found in the barrow, and given to the hobbits by Tom Bombadil), thus leaving the witchking vulnerable to eowyns normal sword.

Did you find the quote in the prologue regarding hobbits being related to men?

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Yeah he was clever with words like that.

[Haradrim]

No Ihavent didnt no I was supposed to. But I just read it yesterday and I remember it saying nothing having to do with men and hobbits being related.
But maybe I missed something. And Merry and Pippen kind of tag teamed the witch king so in a way they both killed him and I dont think the blade ah dmuch to do with it. I remember the sword beign magical but I dont thinkit could unknit the magic. BEsides Prophecys are always true but they dont alwasy mean what you think.

[BeardofPants]

Hmmm... bloody 'ell. If yer gonna post en-mass in the thread, at least try and do a little research as well, from time to time?

From prologue:

It is plain indeed that in spite of later estrangement Hobbits are relatives of ours : far nearer to us than Elves, or even than Dwarves. Of old they spoke the languages of Men, after their own fashion, and liked and disliked much the same things as Men did. But what exactly our relationship is can no longer be discovered.

It then goes on to say that the origin of hobbits is problematic. Tolkien (elsewhere?) postulates that they are a sub-branch off Men.

Merry and Eowyn brought down the Witchking. Pippin wasn't anywhere in sight.

Out of the wreck rose a Black Rider, tall and threatening, towering above her. With a cry of hatred that stung the very ears like venom he let fall his mace. Her shield was shivered in many pieces, and her arm was broken; she stumbled to her knees. He bent over her like a cloud, and his eyes glittered; he raised his mace to kill.


But suddenly he too stumbled foward with a cry of bitter pain, and his stroke went wide, driving into the ground. Merry's sword had stabbed him from behind, shearing through the black mantle, and passing up beneath the hauberk had pierced the sinew behind the mighty knee.


Eowyn! Eowyn! cried Merry. Then tottering, struggling up, with her last strength she drove her sword between crown and mantle, as great shoulders bowed before her. The sword broke sparkling into many shards. The crown rolled away with a clang. Eowyn fell forward upon her fallen foe. But lo! the mantle and hauberk were empty. Shapeless they lay now on the ground, torn and tumbled; and a cry went up into shuddering air, and faded to a shrill wailing, passing with the wind, a voice bodiless and thin that died, and was swallowed up, and was never heard again in that age of this world.


So passed the sword of the Barrow-downs, work of the Westernesse. But glad would he have been to know its fate who wrought it slowly long ago in the North-kingdom when the Dunedain were young, and chief among their foes was the dread realm of Angmar and its sorcerer king. No other blade, not though mightier hands had wielded it, would have dealt that foe a wound so bitter, cleaving the undead flesh, breaking the spell that knit his unseen sinews to his will.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Yeah Merrys sword was one of the Westernesse (Numenor) and Pippins blade of the same make the writing blazed like a fire at the Black Gate.

[Haradrim]

I have a rpoblem with typing too fast sorry about adding on Pippen. But still they were considered an off branch and therefore different then the race of men and therefore not men. So the prophecy could still say no man and mean Merry

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Do you think that aplied to all Nazgûl?

[BeardofPants]

Hobbits were OF the race of Men. That is what the quote from the prologue states. You can't argue with it, because that is what Tolkien says. Whilst their origins are obscure, and they're considered an off-shoot off Men, they're NOT a separate species, and consequently, are considered of the race of men.

[Haradrim]

Yeah but as Tolkien said they are an offbranch and that means to me that eventually you waould have to consider them a seperate species and I think that by the time of the third age you could suffiecntly call them seperate species.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Do you think that the prophercy aplied to all Nazgûl?

[Haradrim]

I dont kniw but I dont think so. Also another question. When the witch king was killed who took over for the battle before the Black Gate?

[Haradrim]

I dont kniw but I dont think so. Also another question. When the witch king was killed who took over for the battle before the Black Gate?

[Haradrim]

I dont kniw but I dont think so. Also another question. When the witch king was killed who took over for the battle before the Black Gate?

[BeardofPants]

Originally Posted by Haradrim

Yeah but as Tolkien said they are an offbranch and that means to me that eventually you waould have to consider them a seperate species and I think that by the time of the third age you could suffiecntly call them seperate species.

From Tolkien's Letters:

[letter no. 131, footnote number 2]

The Hobbits are, of course, really meant to be a branch of the specifically human race (not Elves or Dwarves) - hence the two kinds can dwell together (as at Bree), and are called just the Big Folk and Little Folk. They are entirely without non-human powers, but are represented as being more in touch with 'nature' (the soil and other living things, plants and animals), and abnormally, for humans, free from ambition or greed of wealth. They are made small (little more than half human stature, but dwindling as the years pass) partly to exhibit the pettiness of man, plain unimaginative parochial man ... etc, etc.

Hobbits are Men.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Khamûl took over as he was second in command. He was the Lieutenant(sp.) of Dol Guldur

[BeardofPants]

If you're going to further discuss the take-down of the witchking, you should either start another thread, or find the appropriate thread to discuss the matter. This thread should deal specifically with the nature of Ferny, hobbits, and men.

[Haradrim]

okily dokily
so back to hobbits or men
I still think that technically Ferny could be a hobbit. BEcasue he was male and thanks to BoP's help hobbits could be considered men. so its all a matter of what TOlkien meant by man at that point in time.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Originally Posted by Eärniel

On the other hand, he could have done so too if he had been a Hobbit. Not all Hobbits were that pure of heart. Although the squinty-eyed Southener would no doubt have gotten a sore back from hiding in a Hobbit-home.

I always assumed Ferny was a Hobbit, can't say why really. But judging from the quote here, I think he may more likely have been a man.

from FOTR, chapter "at the sign of the Prancing Pony":

And if anything this quote seems to leave no doubt at all:


From FOTR, chapter "A knife in the dark"
This man turns out to be our Bill Ferny.

I think all this evidence that Earniel posted shows he was a human man.

[Haradrim]

yeah but when it refers to men it could technically according to some mean that he is a male hobbit. So he could technically still be a hobbit. but I think he is a man. Im just playing devil's advocate