Why Aragorn?

[Haradrim]

well people certainly seem to know their stuff here. Thansk everyone for niucley answering my question.

[Olmer]

I was browsing through I found that somehow I missed to respond on Earniel's posting, who was invested in time to contradict my humble suggestions.
I’m sorry for my inattentiveness , which is due to my preoccupation with other matters.
Here I’m giving my POV on your response.

Originally Posted by Eärniel

I trust the Dúnedain knew very well the state and members of their royal house so I doubt there would be any close relative of Aragorn that was also a direct heir that they didn't know about.

If they knew very well the state and members of royal house, how come that Aragorn did not have any ideas who he is till his 20 ? He did not live in the void , as it said “In that house were harbored the Heirs of Isildur, in childhood and old age.” Which means , considering their long living and the probability that some of Chieftains had not only one offspring, that over 1000 years the Rivendell was quite full with all kind of members of Arnor's royal house, which makes unlikely not to guess who is who, UNLESS over many years all of them were treated equally as descendants of the royal family.
In this way, even knowing that your father was the last king on the line, you could never be sure that somebody from your distant relatives doesn’t have more right to succeed as the next Chieftan, a.k.a. the heir of Isildur.

Now, to consider the options of another direct heir, I'd say it couldn't have been a cousin.

Agree on it. The son of you grandfather’s brother could carry no less amount of royal blood.
Notice, that Argeleb, while claiming the lordship of Arnor, was ASSUMING that no descendants left in other realms. Rhydaur refused his lordship not because of the absence of the rightful heir to the throne. It said that “because Dunedain were few” the “power had been seized by evil lord of the Hillmen ”. You can’t SEIZE the kingship if it’s no king there , can‘t forcibly take the throne which nobody occupied. So the rightful king of Rhydaur and his family was among that “few” in the time of seizure, and possibly after that some of his family , escaping an oppression,” fled west”.
The probability is very “thin”, but still gives us a venue for speculation.

Aragorn couldn't have had a son of his own, do you honestly believe Elrond would have given him Arwen as wife if Aragorn had a son and a woman somewhere already? It would have been an unforgivable insult to Arwen and Elrond had too high a regard for his daughter to do that to her.

I honestly believe that healthy young male in his prime years has natural sex drive, which has nothing to do with love, and 30 years of abstinence usually indicate some psychological of physiological abnormalities.
Nowhere said that he wed Arwen being a virgin.
Elrond might not know of what he was doing in his free time in Rohan or Gondor , besides, I don’t think that Aragorn had an urge to report to Elrond about his private life, since the biased elf-lord literally sent him to conquer unconquerable, a precedent in actions of Thingol of Doriath.
Elrond was not concerned about an “unforgivable insult to Arwen“, because, considering odds against Aragorn, he wouldn’t see her as his own ears.

On the other hand, if he had had a sibling I find it impossible that that said sibling would remain unmentioned at all.

This is exactly what I thought when I figured out that Aragorn must have a heir!
I was looking through the pages of the book , not really believing that that unmentioned heir will appear somewhere.
And all of the sudden I got a goose bumps, because he DID appear! And his name is Halbarad.
His sudden appearance brought Aragorn into ecstatic state.” Halbarad!…Of all joy this is least expected!”,“My thought have often turned to you”…
You probably say that it doesn’t mean nothing.
Just imagine the scene: the grim and weathered man running and embracing another man, saying to him that he constantly thinking about him and he is a joy which he dreamt about, but never expected. What would you think?
Right! Look like this man has an alternative sexual orientation.
I think that it caused a confusion among Rohan’s men also . But Aragorn explains, that Halbarad is his relative “of my own kin” , and everyone breathed a sign of relieve:” Well, they are just relatives…”

I also wouldn't make the asumption that all Dúnedain children raised in Rivendell were unaware of their decent and kin until Elrond told them.
I'm guessing Aragorn was an exeption because he was the last of the line. .
If Arathorn had lived longer, I doubt there would have been need to hide Aragorn's lineage until his twenty years.

Everyone of the 15 Chieftains was at some time the last of the line, than this “exception” must had been extended for a quite lengthy time.
Maybe I am too dense, but I don’t understand what it has to do with his father longevity?








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[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Originally Posted by Olmer

I honestly believe that healthy young male in his prime years has natural sex drive, which has nothing to do with love, and 30 years of abstinence usually indicate some psychological of physiological abnormalities.
Nowhere said that he wed Arwen being a virgin.
Elrond might not know of what he was doing in his free time in Rohan or Gondor , besides, I don’t think that Aragorn had an urge to report to Elrond about his private life, since the biased elf-lord literally sent him to conquer unconquerable, a precedent in actions of Thingol of Doriath.
Elrond was not concerned about an “unforgivable insult to Arwen“, because, considering odds against Aragorn, he wouldn’t see her as his own ears.

This is exactly what I thought when I figured out that Aragorn must have a heir!
I was looking through the pages of the book , not really believing that that unmentioned heir will appear somewhere.
And all of the sudden I got a goose bumps, because he DID appear! And his name is Halbarad.
His sudden appearance brought Aragorn into ecstatic state[B].” Halbarad!…Of all joy this is least expected!”,[/B]“My thought have often turned to you”…
You probably say that it doesn’t mean nothing.
Just imagine the scene: the grim and weathered man running and embracing another man, saying to him that he constantly thinking about him and he is a joy which he dreamt about, but never expected. What would you think?
Right! Look like this man has an alternative sexual orientation.
I think that it caused a confusion among Rohan’s men also . But Aragorn explains, that Halbarad is his relative “of my own kin” , and everyone breathed a sign of relieve:” Well, they are just relatives…”

I don't think that Halbarad was his son (or what ever you went for im to be). If he was surely he would have called Aragorn father at some point not Aragorn. If he was then surely more emphasis would have been put on his death.

[Haradrim]

okay Olmer I can swallow everything except for Halbarad. No offense but there is no way Halbarad. I cant dig up huge ntoes of files because I am obviously not as versed as you but I am going on gut instinct here. Tolkien would never have left taht out and not told us. THen we are saying aslo that Aragorn is a bad man because a good and just man would make his rightful son the king and not his other son to Arwen unless you are claiming wedlock on Halabarad but I dont evenm know if that would work. Also there has to be somewhere where it mentions Halbarads age. IO have very few of the books so please someone else find it. Also you are totally making assumptions based on very circumstantial evidence. Yes what yuoua re saying could be true but you might as well be saying hmm I found some feathers ona mans bed. He always looks at the sky. I have never seen him use an airplane and he is always ontime. he must have wings! btw I really like reading your ideas. They are very cool and I dont mean to sound hostile by this post. Please forgive anything that may sound hostile as what may sound hostile to you iseally extremely think sarcasm

[Halbarad of the Dunedain]

ehem.... I dont think that Olmer claimed that... Halbarad was the son of Aragorn, or even a brother. He said that Halbarad was of closekinship with Aragorn. A Cousin perhaps!? I don't think that is too far fetched? Im sure after thousands of years one of the cheiftans on the Dunedain must have ahad more than one child! Perhpas Arathorn had a brother or sister!? I never thought of Halbarad as directly aligned with Elendil but now it does not seem so incredible. Think about it, if Aragorn feel and Halbarad was still alive... King Halbarad of Gondor and Arnor.... I think I like the sound of that.... haha! Seriously though, I am now thinking Halbarad may be of the line of Isildur! Also Halbarad of the Dunedain is not Aragorns son! Aragorn found Arwen in Lorien when he was young and remaind true to her till the end of his days, no way he had a child before seeing her!

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

I doubt it. If Halbarad was the heir of Isildur (after Aragorn) then surely he to would have abided in Rivendell so the line would be preserved.

[Halbarad of the Dunedain]

It never says that he didn't abide in Imladris for a time. Even Aragorn withdrew from Imladris for long periods of time. He traveled Middle-Earth and even spent some time in Lorien! Im sure Halbarad did spend much time in Imladris as did many of the Dunedain. Someone has to be next in line if Aragorn fails right!? If you go far enough back someone would have been the rightful place keeper if Aragorn fell with no heir. Perhaps it was the Greatest of the Dunedain Halbarad!

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Aragorn lived in Imladris and the only recorded journey that he took whilst still Estel was with the Sons of Elrond before Elrond told him his true anscestry. I'm sure if Halbarad did live in Imladris for a time then it would be said.

[Halbarad of the Dunedain]

Why would it be said!? It would not be important unless Aragorn died heirless. I mean what would Tolkien had said? Somewhere in the Appendicies, "oh yeah and Halbarad was Aragorns Cousin... he lived in Imladris for a time and then he came to hsi kinsmans aide and then died on the feilds of pelannor." It wasn't neccessary to add any information on someone who dies so quickly and who is not important unless one of your main characters dies! Im not saying Halbarad as blood of Elendil is fact im just saying there is no better proof for it to be not true than it is to be... possible.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

But surely Aragorn would have told Theoden, Eomer, Legolas and Gimli when Halbarad arrived.

[Artanis]

Originally Posted by Olmer

I honestly believe that healthy young male in his prime years has natural sex drive, which has nothing to do with love, and 30 years of abstinence usually indicate some psychological of physiological abnormalities.
Nowhere said that he wed Arwen being a virgin.

If Arwen was not a virgin she would not have married Aragorn. She would already have been married, since it is the union of the bodies that constitutes a marriage among the Elves. Equally she would not have married Aragorn if he had not been true to their love. You are thinking like a man of this present world Olmer. But Aragorn was a Dúnedain, an almost ideal representative of the nobility left among Men in Middle Earth.

[Halbarad of the Dunedain]

aragorn did tell Gimli, Legolas, Theoden, Eomer, and everyone else that Halbarad is from his own house, one of his kin. In those days it wasn't important to say, this is my cousin, we grew up together in imladris and we like to eat crumpets with our noon tea. Aragorn said the information needed. Also perhaps it was a prtectionary tactic? When a leader is under threat the secondary leader is kept secret and safe so all is not lost, So similarly Halbarad may have been in "hiding" his true nature is not revealed to non elves and non dunedain?

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

He did not have to say that, but he would probably have said that he was the next heir of Isildur.

[Valandil]

Originally Posted by Artanis

If Arwen was not a virgin she would not have married Aragorn. She would already have been married, since it is the union of the bodies that constitutes a marriage among the Elves. Equally she would not have married Aragorn if he had not been true to their love. You are thinking like a man of this present world Olmer. But Aragorn was a Dúnedain, an almost ideal representative of the nobility left among Men in Middle Earth.

I think Olmer was talking about Aragorn being a virgin when they wed, but I strongly agree with Artanis on this. I definitely think that the Dunedain, as well as any of the Numenoreans who were 'Faithful' and had not fallen, would have strictly stuck to the Elven practice of absolute fidelity and faithfulness in love, including refraining before marriage. Did they have urges? Yes... but those were opportunities to practice self-control. Besides, they would have been reinforced by a culture where the peer pressure was to wait, rather than to indulge all urges... they wouldn't have had the advertising and other outlets which keep 'sex' before us constantly today... and young men and women would have probably been kept somewhat separated and almost always supervised.

I do not doubt that most chieftains (and earlier kings) had multiple children. However, the line of kingship always went to the oldest son... that's just the way it was. It doesn't mean that any others had any less of Isildur's genetic code than the king... but the one in line to be king held that station. In fact, after 38 or 39 generations, probably a good chunk of the surviving Dunedain were descended in some way from Valandil, Isildur's son (just do the math!). But only the next in line was considered the rightful king, and if something happened to him, there were generally laws of succession to determine who would follow. I wouldn't be surprised if most chieftains and kings had at least 2 or 3 sons... for 'insurance' if nothing else... and they likely had as many daughters as sons, over the course of time. However, I don't think there's any way Arathorn had other children - that would have been significant enough to mention.

In the case of Halbarad, there are many ways he could be related to Aragorn - and only half are on his father's side. He could have been a first or second cousin, maybe once removed either way, from either side... or even a third cousin. He could have even been a later child of Dirhael and Ivorwen - an uncle to Aragorn, but perhaps of approximately the same age.

They were apparently close friends as well as relatives - and I doubt there were other Dunedain children in Imladris. I suspect that when Aragorn first went into the wild, at age 20, that he first went to meet his own people, and traveled with a few of them initially. It was only a few years later that it says he went alone... so he obviously had companions at first. He didn't know Gandalf yet - so that pretty much leaves Elrond's sons or other Rangers. I suspect the former at first, but the latter after that, or together with the former. In those early years, he probably got to know his people and their ways, and formed close friendships with a few in particular, including Halbarad.

[Earniel]

Originally Posted by Olmer

I’m sorry for my inattentiveness , which is due to my preoccupation with other matters. Here I’m giving my POV on your response.

No problem. Thank you for taking the time to answer my post in lenght.

Originally Posted by Olmer

If they knew very well the state and members of royal house, how come that Aragorn did not have any ideas who he is till his 20 ? He did not live in the void , as it said “In that house were harbored the Heirs of Isildur, in childhood and old age.” Which means , considering their long living and the probability that some of Chieftains had not only one offspring, that over 1000 years the Rivendell was quite full with all kind of members of Arnor's royal house, which makes unlikely not to guess who is who, UNLESS over many years all of them were treated equally as descendants of the royal family.

I had the impression there were no other permanent human residents in Imladris but Aragorn and Gilraen or in any case not more than a handful. Also, I doubt Elrond would have let the Dúnedain turn Rivendell into a substitute for their royal court. Aragorn did indeed not live in the void for his first 20 years and quite possibly he met kin and relatives in that time. But it doesn't mean they also treated him as heir to the chieftainship. On Elrond request his lineage was kept hidden, the visiting Dúnedain would have honoured that request.

Originally Posted by Olmer

Agree on it. The son of you grandfather’s brother could carry no less amount of royal blood.

Agreed. But succession went (IIRC) in direct line, therefore the son of the chieftain would be first to succeed, before his uncle. And his son before the children of the uncle. They may have had the same amount of royal blood, but their claim to chieftainship was different.

Originally Posted by Olmer

Notice, that Argeleb, while claiming the lordship of Arnor, was ASSUMING that no descendants left in other realms. Rhydaur refused his lordship not because of the absence of the rightful heir to the throne. It said that “because Dunedain were few” the “power had been seized by evil lord of the Hillmen ”. You can’t SEIZE the kingship if it’s no king there , can‘t forcibly take the throne which nobody occupied. So the rightful king of Rhydaur and his family was among that “few” in the time of seizure, and possibly after that some of his family , escaping an oppression,” fled west”. The probability is very “thin”, but still gives us a venue for speculation.

Possible, however, the quote you gave said 'power had been seized', not kingship.

Originally Posted by Olmer

Elrond might not know of what he was doing in his free time in Rohan or Gondor , besides, I don’t think that Aragorn had an urge to report to Elrond about his private life, since the biased elf-lord literally sent him to conquer unconquerable, a precedent in actions of Thingol of Doriath.

Possible, though I think it unlikely. Also, your theory rested on Elrond picking the next Chieftain to succeed. If Aragorn had a son that Elrond did not know about then your theory doesn't work for the possibility of Aragorn having a son.

Originally Posted by Olmer

I think that it caused a confusion among Rohan’s men also . But Aragorn explains, that Halbarad is his relative “of my own kin” , and everyone breathed a sign of relieve:” Well, they are just relatives…”

Which doesn't mean Halbarad is also a direct heir to the throne, he may as easily have been close kin through Gilraen. (As I notice now Valandil has posted in much more detail)

Originally Posted by Olmer

Everyone of the 15 Chieftains was at some time the last of the line, than this “exception” must had been extended for a quite lengthy time. Maybe I am too dense, but I don’t understand what it has to do with his father longevity?

Yes, but not everyone of the 15 Chieftain's father died when he was but two years old. IIRC each of the chieftains was mature when his father died and the chieftainship passed on to them. Some of the heirs undoubtedly already had sons of their own when they inherited the role of Chieftain. Except for Aragorn II. He was only two years old when his father died so it would be many years before he could have an heir. The risks of losing the last heir of Isildur were suddenly a lot higher than ever. In that I call Aragorn the exception.

As for your last question, if his father had lived longer I doubt his lineage would have been kept a secret for Aragorn until he was 20. There would have been no need IMO.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Originally Posted by Valandil

I suspect that when Aragorn first went into the wild, at age 20, that he first went to meet his own people, and traveled with a few of them initially.

Aragorn went abroad with Elronds son before that. In Appendix A it says

But when Estel was only twenty years of age, it chanced that he returned to Rivendell after great deeds in the company of the sons of Elrond.

It doesn't say how often this happened but it suggest he left Rivendell a few years previously.

[Artanis]

Originally Posted by Valandil

I think Olmer was talking about Aragorn being a virgin when they wed,

Oh I see, I read Olmer's sentence wrong. But anyway, Arwen would not have married Aragorn if he was not a virgin, she would have considered him as already married. And it was not possible to deceive her in this matter, the Elves knew instantly whether a person was married or not.

[Lefty Scaevola]

Originally Posted by Artanis

Oh I see, I read Olmer's sentence wrong. But anyway, Arwen would not have married Aragorn if he was not a virgin, she would have considered him as already married. And it was not possible to deceive her in this matter, the Elves knew instantly whether a person was married or not.

If the hypothetical parmour of Aragorn was a human, and dead, thus with no real chance of returning to earth, then the precedent of Finwe/Miriel/Indis waould apply and Aragon would be marriagle under Nodorin law.

[Haradrim]

but lefty Aragorn met ARwen when he was extremely young and he remained faithful. He didnt spend any periods of time away from the sons of elrond or Elrond so they would have stopped him if he ever got the urge. Also Aragorn, as said before, was the highest ideal of what a human could be. he was honorable, brave, strong, courageous, and faithful to the one he loved. That makes me think he wouldnt have had other women/woman.

Also Olmer said -the heir to gondor- I could be mistaken but I always thought that when you would say Aragorn's heir you wouldnt mean the next of royal blood you meant his son. But i could be wrong. Wow this died for awhiel and now its coming back with a vengeance and I attributer the sucess to Olmer thanks Olmer.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Aragorn did spend time out of the Company of Elrond or his sons. They weren't with him on his ways to Gondor and Rohan. But I agree that Aragorn wouldn't have married Arwen if he already had a child.