The Lord of the Rings Discussion Ch 11 and 12

[The Gaffer]

Well, that makes a lot of sense, in terms of explaining why Tolkien would want to represent evil things as being afraid of water. I would have thought that both theories (water=soul, Ulmo=dude) are compatible with one another

Ulmo was the one valar who never forsook Middle-Earth either (remembers Turin)

However, Gaffer, I have my own theory as to why they feared water but it's too religious and I'd hate to force it on other people

Good instincts there, sir. However, in this case I think we can let you off.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Yeah it says that Ulmo never forsook Men or Elves even if the Valar were angry wuth them.

[Finrod Felagund]

In relation to water...and forgive me for this...but I recall in the Silmarillion, a tower (Barad Nimrais), built by Finrod Felagund on the coast, to guard from a sea attack by Morgoth...but it was unecessary, "for at no time ever did Morgoth essay to build ships or to make war by sea. Water all his servants shunned, and to the sea none would willingly go nigh, save in dire need"
Consequently, the tower was later taken in a land attack.

So it seems all evil creatures fear water...

Perhaps it has to do with an inherent fear in Sauron (and Morgoth), of things he could not master.

He did not fear Men or Saruman for example, because they were easily bent to his will. The elves were not controllable and he sought always to wipe them out. Similarly, he hated the dwarves because, even with the 7 rings he was unable to control them. Because of Ulmo's power, and Osse's unpredictability, no one set against the valar could hope to control the sea. And in any case, in any of us, anything we can't control, is to be feared.

Originally Posted by Linaewen

Other senses
“Senses, too, there are other than sight or smell”. What senses is Strider talking about? Feeling? Hearing? Or something else?

I myself believe that this refers to the Ringwraith's connection to the ring, and the manner in which they can "sense" its presence...

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Not all evil creatures fear water because the Watcher of the Water lives in water.

[Finrod Felagund]

Ahhh...very good point...
but that water in which it resided was stagnant, under a mountain and in a mountain pool, not connected to the power of the seas/rivers...

[BeardofPants]

Do we know that for sure?

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Yeah didn't it run in to the Silverlode.

[BeardofPants]

Yes... but... the roots ran very deep, and namless things lived there, etc, etc. How do we know that further down, it didn't run into another watershed?

wait, wait... read your sentence wrong. Heh.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

I don't think we do.

[Valandil]

I've been wanting to post much on this but haven't been able. Without checking back, here are a couple things:

1. Yes - 'longshanks' means 'long legs'... it was actually applied to a King of England... I think an Edward was King Edward 'Longshanks'. Anyway - whichever one it was - it was the guy who was the villain in the movie 'Braveheart'... I think he was about 6'-7" or so.

2. Just noticed this time through that when the three wraiths approach and Frodo puts on the Ring, that his sword seems to flame red and two of the three wraiths stop - but the other (who we find to be their leader - the Witch-King) continues to advance. Question: Was that how a special blade of the Dunedain would appear in the wraiths' phantom world? And was that enough to frighten the two lesser wraiths? That's what Frodo carried at the time - a blade recovered from the Barrow on the Downs - like the one Merry later used to... oh, don't want to give the ending away!

More later...

[Artanis]

Originally Posted by Valandil

2. Just noticed this time through that when the three wraiths approach and Frodo puts on the Ring, that his sword seems to flame red and two of the three wraiths stop - but the other (who we find to be their leader - the Witch-King) continues to advance. Question: Was that how a special blade of the Dunedain would appear in the wraiths' phantom world? And was that enough to frighten the two lesser wraiths? That's what Frodo carried at the time - a blade recovered from the Barrow on the Downs - like the one Merry later used to... oh, don't want to give the ending away!

Interesting thoughts Val - swords made with Elvish skill has 'magic' qualities and changing appearance when evil creatures are about seems to have been one of them. But I doubt it has anything to do with the shadow world. Sting and Glamdring shone with a different light when Orcs were near, and Sting is several times described as flickering with a blue light when Frodo draws it. So, I don't think it was the origin of the sword that made the wraiths hesitate, I think they had expected to be able to take the Ring without a fight, and so were taken aback by the resistance Frodo offered them.

[Olmer]

Originally Posted by Artanis

I think they had expected to be able to take the Ring without a fight, and so were taken aback by the resistance Frodo offered them.

What if they DID NOT expected to take the Ring?
What if they WANTED the Ring to be delivered to the place far out of Sauron's reach?
Don't forget that they were not completely mindless zombies.Used to be proud and powerful kings , they were still keeping some of their personalities.
What if they saw the chance to their freedom from the 5000 years of slavery?

[Artanis]

Originally Posted by Olmer

What if they DID NOT expected to take the Ring?
What if they WANTED the Ring to be delivered to the place far out of Sauron's reach?
Don't forget that they were not completely mindless zombies.Used to be proud and powerful kings , they were still keeping some of their personalities. What if they saw the chance to their freedom from the 5000 years of slavery?

Corrupted personalitites I would say. Not mindless, but their will was controlled by Sauron. I don't think they would have a chance to think about escaping.

[Olmer]

Originally Posted by Artanis

I don't think they would have a chance to think about escaping.

Then how to explain that they had a numerous opportunities to get the Ring without any effort and failed all of them?

[Valandil]

Olmer - are you postulating that they hoped either Elrond or Gandalf or some other worthy at Rivendell would take up the Ring and become their master? If so - they sure DID pursue Frodo to a great extent... even chasing him to the Fords of Bruinen... and crossing most of the Bruinen to take him back to Mordor.

Besides... (diverting from LOTR books only) - doesn't JRRT tell us somewhere that Sauron held the Nine Rings... whereby he retained control over these servants? I don't know if he would have lost that control even if someone else claimed the One... unless they were given time to master it, but that may have been destructive to the Nazgul itself... Elrond or someone having mastered the One, while Sauron tried to control them through the Nine.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

I don't think that they did try to take the Ring, I think that they planned for Frodo to be corrupted by the Morgul wound quicker so he would take the Ring to Sauron and endure terrible torture.

[Olmer]

Originally Posted by Valandil

Olmer - are you postulating that they hoped either Elrond or Gandalf or some other worthy at Rivendell would take up the Ring and become their master?

I'm not talking about claiming of the Ring by somebody else. I'm talking about the one-and-only chance in 5000 years to get out of Sauron's control.They were binded by Sauron's domineering will , but they could slow things down without disobeying him.
Did you read "The Hunt for the Ring" in UT?
I spent quite a time poring over the pages.
It's a revelation.

[Valandil]

Originally Posted by Olmer

...Did you read "The Hunt for the Ring" in UT?
I spent quite a time poring over the pages.
It's a revelation.

Yes - but only once and about 18 months ago. And besides, you know how I take things much more at face value than you do!

[Olmer]

Originally Posted by Valandil

Yes - but only once and about 18 months ago. And besides, you know how I take things much more at face value than you do!

He-he... I am taking things at face value too, but sometimes I try to see what is the real meaning behind the friendly facade. Things are not always as they look like.

[Valandil]

Any-hoo, something else from the end of this section:

When Frodo is making that last dash for the Ford, it's written that it appears to him as though the riders had shed their cloaks and hoods - and he saw them dressed in white and gray, and saw their helms and swords. Really - it's like he saw them as he did when he put on the Ring at Weathertop.

Now - I take it that this is because Frodo was turning into a wraith. I doubt the others saw the riders that way... or that Frodo would have seen them that way if he didn't have his wound. Their proximity may have either hastened the process, or enhanced his awareness of that spirit realm.

I think I only noticed in this reading that when Frodo just slipped past that last rider (thanks to Asfaloth!) he got breathed at... he felt what was probably a shot of the Black Breath!