The Lord of the Rings discussion: Chapter 2, The Shadow of the Past

[The Gaffer]

It doesn't. However, Gollum finding the Ring would be enough.

[Beren3000]

But why would Sauron need Gollum to hunt for the Ring, the Nine were already out looking for "Baggins of the Shire", weren't they?

[Nurvingiel]

If Gollum did find it, he would probably use it. Then Sauron would be able to tell where it was.

But if that's the case, why wouldn't he have noticed 60 years earlier when Gollum was using it to kill stray orcs? Is it because he hadn't returned to power yet? (Stupid don't have the books...)

[Beren3000]

Good point, Nurv!
Acutally at Gollum's time, Sauron was in fact closer to the Misty Mountains as he was still in Dol Guldur as the Necromancer. But I guess the only explanation for Sauron's not noticing was the fact that the whole concept of the Ring as evil hadn't crossed Tolkien's mind yet as he worked on The Hobbit

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

And they were deep into the Misty Mountains. Idon't expect that they knew that the Necromancer was Sauron, I think only the Nazgul would have known that.

[azalea]

It is stated in The Hobbit that Gollum rarely used it anymore. But when Bilbo found it he used it a lot, so my guess is that Sauron hadn't yet gained enough of his power, he was still weak.

[Nurvingiel]

Originally Posted by Beren3000

Good point, Nurv!
Acutally at Gollum's time, Sauron was in fact closer to the Misty Mountains as he was still in Dol Guldur as the Necromancer. But I guess the only explanation for Sauron's not noticing was the fact that the whole concept of the Ring as evil hadn't crossed Tolkien's mind yet as he worked on The Hobbit

I thought about the proximity thing too. But I think the Hobbit is contigous with LOTR, no worries there.

I think Azalea has got it, with him still being weak. Or maybe he hadn't figured out where to look yet, and he wasn't powerful enough to sense every time the Ring was used.

Sauron's weakness would go both ways - he wouldn't be strong enough to sense the Ring, and the Ring wouldn't send as strong of a signal. IOW, the connection between the two is weaker.

[Olmer]

Originally Posted by Nurvingiel

But if that's the case, why wouldn't he have noticed 60 years earlier when Gollum was using it to kill stray orcs? Is it because he hadn't returned to power yet? (Stupid don't have the books...)

I think that, as time was passing by,the Ring was cooled off to the point of "going to sleep" mode. This why it has been relatively safe for Gollum and Bilbo to use the Ring.
By throwing it back in the fire Gandalf re-activated it, and the hell broke loose.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

And by that time Sauron was back in Barad-Dûr, which also relied on the Ring's existance. That to could have had something to do with it.

[Mrs.Gimli]

great job !i injoyed it very much

[Mrs.Gimli]

The shadow of the past is one of the best chapters The part with Smeagol and Deagol is very good,,,,,,,Plus it tells you whats going on in Middle Earth
I just finished with the books and I oviously loved them

[The Wizard from Milan]

Originally Posted by jerseydevil

For the chapter being named after Sauron, “The Shadow from the Past”, not much is really revealed about Sauron except in hints.

But I don't think that “The Shadow from the Past” is Sauron. “The Shadow from the Past” is the ring, or, better even, the fear that the ring and lord might be united once more

EDIT: Oops, I had not seen you address this a few lines below... I guess I was too eager to answer

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Nurvingiel

But if that's the case, why wouldn't he have noticed 60 years earlier when Gollum was using it to kill stray orcs? Is it because he hadn't returned to power yet? (Stupid don't have the books...)

I have some ideas on ring-detection that I would like to share

I suppose that Sauron was aware of someone wearing the Ring not because of his inner link with the One, but through the 3 dwarven and 9 nazgul rings that he had. Gandalf became aware of Frodo putting the ring on Amon Hen through Narya. Sauron must have been collecting Great rings throughout the second and third millenia of the Third age. We know exactly when Sauron got the "last of the seven": in TA 2845. The Nine he presumably got later -when he returned to Mordor and declared himself openly: that is by 2951.
So when Gollum wore his ring above ground (2463-2470) Sauron, though living nearby, had only two dwarwen rings as a detector (perhaps even one). Then Gollum went to live in the caves, probably the mountains screened the signal.
When Bilbo found the ring (2941), Gandalf immediately "felt uneasy", may be even literally so, he had Narya and was close to Bilbo. But as he never had this feeling before (he was not there when Sauron wore his ring in the SA) he may not have understood the cause. But at the White Counsel this same year he INSISTED that action was to be taken against the Necromancer (just in case if Bilbo's ring is the One). And he was convincing, so when Bilbo returned to the Shire, Sauron was already in Mordor.
Sauron (with his three dwarven rings only) could have missed the passage of Bilbo through Mirkwood on his way to Esgaroth. And in Mordor he was too far away to feel the signal.
However, after getting the Nine, Sauron became much more powerful. And he must have got the Ithil/Morgul palantir to use. Before his departure to Rivendell (3001), Bilbo confessed to Gandalf that he felt stretched and felt an eye seeking for him. So Sauron must have been aware on the One ring on someone's finger, but could not yet locate the offender. Perhaps at this time Sauron sent some magic call to the bearer of the One to come to Mordor (in the way Frodo felt drawn to the gates of Minas Morgul). But instead of Bilbo (who was far away) Sauron got Gollum, the previous ringbearer, who was drawn to Mordor and was captured in 3009.
After Bilbo's departure Frodo has not used the Ring at all, so felt nothing and was undetectable.
In 2018 Frodo put the Ring on several occasions: in Bombadil house, at the Pony -also briefly, at Weathertop. Sauron might have felt him wearing the ring on all the three occasions, but as Frodo's general location was already known to Sauron, it has not helped the latter much.

Then comes the Amon Hen incident. Both Sauron with his string of rings and Gandalf with Narya were immediately aware of Frodo wearing the Ring. Gandalf was even able to send him a mental call! Saruman could have felt him as well (if it is true that he has got one dwarven ring and/or with his home-made ring).

Then Sam wore the Ring in Mordor itself. How come Sauron has not felt it? No explanation. Perhaps he felt the One only if he actually WORE the other rings and just then he was not - was taking a bath, perhaps .

Finally, when Frodo claimed the Ring, each ringbearer must have felt it, Sauron most acutely.

[Butterbeer]

Then Sam wore the Ring in Mordor itself. How come Sauron has not felt it? No explanation. Perhaps he felt the One only if he actually WORE the other rings and just then he was not - was taking a bath, perhaps .


Interesting stuff, with regard to the above: was sauron taking a Bath perhaps? Classic!- gotta agree with you there - it does seem, thinking about it, completely incongrous - but love your funny sarcastic description! very funny.
can't understand why sauron would not have immediately felt it in Mordor, even with the captains of the West pressing him (if that is actaully happening at this exact juncture in time - i'd need to check but do not have the books to hand nor the inclination to actually check - i'm sure someone here will know - its kinda the point of the forum yeah?) so i'd like to know but yup excellent point

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Butterbeer

i'd need to check but do not have the books to hand nor the inclination to actually check - i'm sure someone here will know - its kinda the point of the forum yeah?) so i'd like to know but yup excellent point

Thank you, Butterbeer, I have reread the part about Sam and the Ring again.

I happily announce that Sauron is redeemed. He was not taking a bath after all. No baths ever for the Dark Lord! It is said that every tine Sam put on the ring he has felt the Eye's awareness, but the Eyesight was obstructed by the dark pall of smoke over Mordor. So Sauron was unable to locate Sam.

As for the dates: On the 13.03 at Ungol Pass Sam put the Ring on, but almost immediately followed the orcs underground. There he has lain unconscious till midday of 14.03 presumably with the ring still on. About noon 14.03 he has put the Ring on but briefly. At the time Sauron had grave matters in his mind: On the 13 the Orcs occupied Pellennor fields, on the 14 the assault of Minas Tirith took place. Denethor was looking in his Palantir, so Sauron had to show him selected pictures. He was trying to locate Aragorn ever since he thought the other had the Ring. And at this crucial time he felt someone wearing the Ring and somewhere near! Poor Sau.

Perhaps Sam's unintended "teasing" of Sauron with the Ring distracted Sauron enough to overlook both the approach of the Rohirrim and the march of the Army of Dead from the South. It looks like Sam contributed a lot to the Pellennor victory!

[Butterbeer]

Originally Posted by gordis

Thank you, Butterbeer, I have reread the part about Sam and the Ring again.

I happily announce that Sauron is redeemed. He was not taking a bath after all. No baths ever for the Dark Lord! It is said that every tine Sam put on the ring he has felt the Eye's awareness, but the Eyesight was obstructed by the dark pall of smoke over Mordor. So Sauron was unable to locate Sam.

As for the dates: On the 13.03 at Ungol Pass Sam put the Ring on, but almost immediately followed the orcs underground. There he has lain unconscious till midday of 14.03 presumably with the ring still on. About noon 14.03 he has put the Ring on but briefly. At the time Sauron had grave matters in his mind: On the 13 the Orcs occupied Pellennor fields, on the 14 the assault of Minas Tirith took place. Denethor was looking in his Palantir, so Sauron had to show him selected pictures. He was trying to locate Aragorn ever since he thought the other had the Ring. And at this crucial time he felt someone wearing the Ring and somewhere near! Poor Sau.

Perhaps Sam's unintended "teasing" of Sauron with the Ring distracted Sauron enough to overlook both the approach of the Rohirrim and the march of the Army of Dead from the South. It looks like Sam contributed a lot to the Pellennor victory!

I appreciate you taking the time to look that up Gordis, many thanks. Sauron was certainly pretty busy at this point then. Im glad we can categorically rule out the Bath theory (partly for fear of the thread spin offs; why couldn't he have had a bath wearing waterproof gloves? / were the rings not water-proof? would he have been ok in a shower? etc)
It's a novel theory regarding Samwise Gamgee! Think perhaps that "Teasing" Poor Sau (even unintended) is again a funny and choice use of words which i won't take too seriously (again it made me laugh) : although actually like you say it may well have played a part in distracting him and certainly in sewing doubt in sauron's mind.

With regard to your Historical approach (mentioned elsewhere i think) i think it has merits, for example the above about Sam: we can't really take this particluar one too far in terms of Sam's cause and effect, but i'm sure no one has probably formulated this particluar connection before: how Sam's use of the Ring in Mordor may have helped out in distracting Sauron at a crucial time.
I,also, agree Olmer has many interesting points, though do not agree with all of them, he tends to take it too far for me personally - but i welcome his viewpoints and usually they do make me think!

Welcome to the Moot

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Butterbeer

I,also, agree Olmer has many interesting points, though do not agree with all of them, he tends to take it too far for me personally - but i welcome his viewpoints and usually they do make me think!
Welcome to the Moot

Exactly my feelings!
And thank you so much.

[CrazySquirrel]

Originally Posted by gordis

Perhaps Sam's unintended "teasing" of Sauron with the Ring distracted Sauron enough to overlook both the approach of the Rohirrim and the march of the Army of Dead from the South. It looks like Sam contributed a lot to the Pellennor victory!

I like the way you put the events together, fascinating! I also wandered why Sau with his Eye and Palantir has overlooked the Rohirrim and the Dead coming...