"Do not touch the water"

[Earniel]

No, I wasn't thinking in the way that the Ring of water would give it's bearer command over water. I don't think Tolkien ever suggested something like that. At least, not to my knowledge. If the rings were indeed so closely tied with the elements they presented, it would have indeed been more logical to give the Ring of water to Cirdan.

But Barrelrider110 said that the bearers of the Elven rings seemed to have forsight of some sort. I just wondered, since Galadriel got that sort of forsight through the waterfilled mirror, whether there was some connection with her Ring of water. Or whether it was a coincedence.

[Aragorn_of_the_west]

I think that Galadriel had extended forsight as a result of her being a high elf- as someone said( im sorry- i dont have time to look up who), all elves have a natural gift of forsight- and probely being a high elf would extend her forsight even more.
one more point is that( please correct me if i am wrong)' but didnt Galadriel have a distint realashionship with a Valar/Mia( *cant remember*)?
i have no proof of these claims but i said them because i have a distint memory of them in the Sil. again- correct me if i am wrong.

[Helix]

Just a guess, but would touching the water possibly reveal Frodo to Sauron? Frodo did see the eye in the Mirror, possibly if he had touched the water, he would be visible to it.

[Tanoliel]

I thought--I think someone mentioned something like this before--that by breathing on the mirror, Galadriel began the spell (I dislike the word "spell" for this, but it's the only one I've got) that would show the pictures: began the scrying. Touching the water would disturb the surface that both the pictures were shown on and the spell was placed on: therefore disturbing the water would disturb and thus end the spell.

Aii....I am more than usually verbose today. Sorry.

Kalile: You're thinking of Schrodinger's Cat--Pratchett didn't come up with it, he just made it sound much more interesting. It goes like this: The cat is in the box with a bit of poison which it may or may not eat, and therefore may or may not die. Until the box is opened, the cat is both alive and dead--both possibilities are possible. Terry Prachett adds that whatever the cat's vital status, it is also spitting mad.
I can't remember what this had to do with Galadriel's mirror...but oh well.

Tano

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Originally posted by Sheeana
I personally don't believe that the ring gave her power over the water; I'm of the belief that the rings were meant for preservation, and nothing more. Gandalf, for instance, was a servant of the flame of Anor, which came from Illuvatar, not the ring.

Actually, if I remember aright, it was "servant of the Secret Fire, wielder of the flame of Anor." Big difference. Anor is the Sindarin word for (and no doubt name of) the Sun; the Secret Fire was, I believe, a part of the spirit of Eru, that part which was linked to the act of creation; for remember how Melkor sought it in the Void (yet it was with Iluvatar in the Timeless Halls), long before sun or moon, Tree or star, even the very Ainulindale itself came to Be. I think (though I don't remember if it says this) that he sought it to be able to make his own beings; yet he found it not, and thus, the Enemy can only mock or corrupt, but never truly create anew.

Regarding the Rings, I think they had to do (aside with the universal Elven-ring trait of stopping change and preserving the land, "have their cake and eat it") with the more spiritual traits of the element with which they were associated. Narya, for instance, I think kindled the hearts of others, and gave them strength to press on; spiritually associated with Fire. Nenya, if I remember, had the especial gift of healing; spiritually associated with Water. At least, that was the impression I got.

I think that Ruinel may have been right Frodo's touching the water revealing him to Sauron; yet somehow I cannot see that the same thing would have been true of Samwise, and that leads me to think that there was a different reason for it.

[Sister Golden Hair]

You are correct on the "Secret Fire" GW. The "Secret Fire" is the "Flame Imperishable" found only with Iluvatar.

[Attalus]

I agree with those who have said that touching the water would break the spell, possibly by interrupting its command by Galadriel that she had imposed by the act of breathing on it. I do not think that any harm would have come to Frodo or Sam had they disobeyed. I further think that Galadriel showed the Mirror to Frodo just to give him further information that might aid him on his Quest, which, as she observed, stood on the edge of a knife. Anything she could do to help, she wanted to do. And, Frodo did offer her the Ring, as she desired. It is to her credit and a testimony to her wisdom that she declined. JRRT says elsewhere, Unfinished Tales, I think, that it was her refusal of the Ring that got the Ban lifted from her so that she could return to Valinor.

[Valandil]

*bump*

Olmer - here's one of those threads anyway... it was further back than I remembered.

[Beren3000]

Ok, I'm new to this thread but I'm too lazy to look over all the posts. So please forgive me if the ideas are post here are repeated.
However, I disagree with Attalus. I think that in some way, Galadriel was affected by the Ring and showed Frodo the mirror knowing that some way or another, Sauron would pop in there and would scare Frodo into giving her the Ring. I think that her refusal after that is of her own accord (IOW, she came to her senses afterwards). Remember that when Galdriel was talking to Frodo about the Ring, she said something like : I'd not deny that I desired the Ring for a long time, yet you give it to me freely. I guess that means that she was planning to take the Ring someway or another. Following that line of thought, I'd say that whatever Galadriel had done to the mirror to make it affect Frodo would have been disrupted by his touching the water, that's where I agree with you Attalus. Anyway, I know it sounds too paranoid but I think it's pretty plausible...

[The Gaffer]

I also have the same recollection as Attalus: Galadriel's refusal of the Ring permitted her to return to Valinor. There's something about it in Unfinished Tales.

There is the small question of, if what she really wanted was the Ring, why did she turn it down?

[Artanis]

Originally posted by The Gaffer
There is the small question of, if what she really wanted was the Ring, why did she turn it down?

Because she was wise enough to know that the Ring would corrupt her.

[BeardofPants]

She probably wanted to go home as well. It must have sucked getting her heiny kicked out because of some hot-headed males.

[Olmer]

Wow! So many interesting thoughts. Thanks Valandil , this thread fully satisfied my curiosity.
However, I agree with an idea :disturbing the water - disturbing the future. It's believed that person, who is trying to see his future through some seeing object (mirror, crystal ball, water) should never touch the item, while in session, for your destiny is not firmly set in the space-time. Seeing your future you see a suggestion of what might happen according to a multiple choices given to you.
It might will never happen, but if you will disturb the thread of your future, you are setting up your destiny firmly on one path, you don't have any more the power to change your destiny: no matter what you will decide the outcome will be the same.

Beren3000 I guess that means that she was planning to take the Ring someway or another. I know it sounds too paranoid but I think it's pretty plausible…

No, you are not paranoid. You are just on the target. In another thread Valandil asked me why the elves of Lorien would conspire with orcs to put the Fellowship in peril, and your guess gives an answer.
You are right about Galadriel, remember, she was saying ” if MY designs had not gone amiss” ? She had her original design, another than Gandalf’s and Elrond’s plan for the Ring, - a preservation, and she planned to employ Gandalf in its realization from the beginning.
In sense, after a few Ages her wish "to rule there a realm at her own will" (Sillmarillion) finally came true and she was not interested to be one of many sitting at the feet of Manwe in Valinor. The preservation of the Ring was moving an inevitable emigration on an undefined time, giving her a title of most powerful Elf in the Middle-earth.
But her plan was not accepted, her comrades from the Counsil of the Wise made a move, which Sauron did not count on: they decided on bilateral defeat - destruction of the Middle-earth magic, and the Fellowship with Gandalf-overseer began its quest.
But an unpredicted things has happened: Gandalf got out of the game just at the time, when the Ring arrived in Lothlorien. And Galadriel is taking the reins in her hands, improvising on the way.
She wants to preserve the Ring, but at the same time she does not want to give Sauron a reason to suspect that the Ring is in Lorien’s safekeeping.
Her deceitful plan was just as treacherous as it was elegant: she decided to sacrifice the Fellowship.

[Bombadillo]

I think this is one of the few times when I'd rather accept the simplest answer: it was her water and the hobbits had no business messing with it. We all know it wasn't normal water, and she'd probably have to work to restore its 'magic' power if they'd touched it. That would be a nuicance.

[Count Comfect]

If I recall correctly, the time she says "do not touch the water" is when Frodo is leaning over the basin, being caught in the glare of the Eye.

So saying "do not touch the water" could just have been the easiest way to break the hold that she could see his vision had over him.

[Olmer]

Originally posted by Count Comfect

So saying "do not touch the water" could just have been the easiest way to break the hold that she could see his vision had over him.

What "hold" she was breaking saying the same to Sam before he even looked into the mirror?

[Count Comfect]

That was to make sure he was thinking of that instead of whatever he saw. Preemptive

[Attalus]

Originally posted by Beren3000
However, I disagree with Attalus. I think that in some way, Galadriel was affected by the Ring and showed Frodo the mirror knowing that some way or another, Sauron would pop in there and would scare Frodo into giving her the Ring. I think that her refusal after that is of her own accord (IOW, she came to her senses afterwards). Remember that when Galdriel was talking to Frodo about the Ring, she said something like : I'd not deny that I desired the Ring for a long time, yet you give it to me freely. I guess that means that she was planning to take the Ring someway or another. Following that line of thought, I'd say that whatever Galadriel had done to the mirror to make it affect Frodo would have been disrupted by his touching the water, that's where I agree with you Attalus. Anyway, I know it sounds too paranoid but I think it's pretty plausible...

I highly disagree with this. Galadriel was far too wise to interject a being as powerful as Sauron into her own magic. This on the face of it would be an evil fact, rejected by her only a few paragraphs later, "Would that not have been a noble deed to set to the credit of the Ring, if I had taken it by force or by fear from my guest?" (Italics mine) Certainly the Ring was trying to corrupt Galadriel, as it did all it came in contact with it, but she rejected it emphatically, even freely offered, and we see no sign of hesitation in her, unlike in the movie. Instead of Jackson's pyrotechnics, we have her laughing "with a sudden clear laugh."

[Radagast The Brown]

I agree with Attalus. I do not think Galadriel tried to get the Ring. I beleieve that if she really want the Ring, she would just take it from the Fellowship when they entered Lothlorien... does it matter how she takes the Ring?

Olmer... I don't get it. You say one time that Gandalf manipulated everyone, now you say Galadirle had plans for Gandalf... that's a quite big net of manipulation in Middle Earth that Tolkien has never mentioned, isn't it?

[Olmer]

Originally posted by Radagast The Brown
I beleieve that if she really want the Ring, she would just take it from the Fellowship when they entered Lothlorien... does it matter how she takes the Ring?
You say one time that Gandalf manipulated everyone, now you say Galadirle had plans for Gandalf... that's a quite big net of manipulation in Middle Earth that Tolkien has never mentioned, isn't it? I don't get it.

Never mentionedI? It is in the book which is he wrote!! You can see it if you will try to be a little bit analitical.
I guess somehow my explanations was not clear enough if you still can not get it.
Galadriel didn't needed the Ring to rule, she was already ruling.. She was the most powerful and I'd say the very wise person on Middle Earth at that time.
She knew the true nature of the Ring, which , according to my observations, was not giving a total power (didn't work for its owner Sauron).
Sauron made the Ring NOT to achieve the dominance by OVERPOWERING (he was quite powerful already), but by stripping of the power all, who opposed him, feeding himself with this power and life - force, thus gaining abilities to "materialise" from a spirit form and gaining an "eyesight" to see plans and notions of the others in more clear perspective.
The Ring was programmed to seek the more powerful "donor" and worked accordingly.

As I said before , Galadriel and Gandalf knew that with the aid of the Ring they would acheve almost total dominion, but at the end they would turn into soulless shades of persons they used to be, kind like nazguls, but due to their origin, much more powerful servants of Sauron.
But even if Gandalf and Galadriel were well aware of the Ring's real purpose, the attraction of the Ring was so powerful that to resist such "pull" they were really had to figth with themselves.

They both didn't need the Ring to wield, but they didn't want it to be destroyed neither, for it's allowed to keep things as they are - unchanged. So, naturally, Galadriel, as a ruler of her "neverland" realm was more interested in preservance of the Ring .
But to let Frodo out without the Ring would be a very bad political move , because everyone, who were desiring to get the Ring would be looking at Lothlorien. She did not need more enemies then she already had, and she made brilliant and flexible plan of ring's dissapearance .