Tolkien's Racial and Polictical Implications - Page 3

Kevin McIntyre · 01-17-2002, 08:52 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by bropous
Of course, Kevin, there is only one human race, homo sapiens sapiens, and within that race are five recognized "chromotrophs", color variations: Melanesian, Mongoloid, Negroid, Caucasian and Amerind. There is not real difference between any of the chromotrophs, only cosmetic; internal organs, appendages, all the same for all five.

Color variations are only one means that people commonly use to classify races. Any varient can (and is) used, which in affect makes race classification a tenous endeavor.

bropous · 01-17-2002, 09:13 PM

And separating species, even less precise delineation, is excessively tedious! In trying to determine the identity of a fish between two very closely related species, sometimes it comes down to the count of fish scales located around the eye....

I can see it now....."Hey! Fourteen-scaler! Get away from that water fountain...it's a fifteen-scale fountain only!"

Wayfarer · 01-17-2002, 09:35 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by bropous
And separating species, even less precise delineation, is excessively tedious! In trying to determine the identity of a fish between two very closely related species, sometimes it comes down to the count of fish scales located around the eye....

Which is why I say we shouldn't bother.

"Hey! This is a new species! It thas 16 scales around the eye!"
*Pluck*
"Put it in with the 15 scalers."

"Look! A new species of beetle! It has an extra pair of spots on it's shell!'
"What? That's Magic marker!"

Incidentally, It is my firm belief that all 'negroid' people are inherently evil.

Come ON!

Kevin McIntyre · 01-17-2002, 09:43 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by bropous
And separating species, even less precise delineation, is excessively tedious! In trying to determine the identity of a fish between two very closely related species, sometimes it comes down to the count of fish scales located around the eye....

I can see it now....."Hey! Fourteen-scaler! Get away from that water fountain...it's a fifteen-scale fountain only!"

Except that two species do not (and in most cases) can not reproduce sexually. Whereas the arbitrary classification by race has no biological rational.

bropous · 01-17-2002, 09:50 PM

Well, it may not be the most definitive quote by Tolkien on the political aspects of the LotR, but here goes:

"[The Lord of the Rings] is to exemplify most clearly a recurrent theme: the place in 'world politics' of the unforeseen and unforeseeable acts of will, and deeds of virtue of the apparently small, ungreat, fogotten in the places of the Wise and Great (good as well as evil). A moral of the whole (afterthe primary symbolism of the Ring, as the will to mere power, seeking to make itself objective by physical force and mechanism, and so also inevitably by lies) is the obvious one that wihtout the high and noble the simple and vulgar is utterly mean; and without the simple and ordinary the noble and heroic is meaningless." Letters of JRR Tolkien, page 160.

I guess this is part of why I have felt the books have made such an impression on me. It is not the lesson that one has to be mighty or bold or well-known to make a difference in life. Frodo and Samwise are "everyman", achievable models of ethical behavior in the face of seemingly insurmountable odds. The actions of the smallest among us can begin events which bring down entire nations. Or preserve them. Wonderful sentiments from a wonderful man. It is a real benefit to society that so many new millions of Tolkien readers will learn this lesson. There will be some that miss it, but the positive lesson won't get by the majority of them.

Oh well, rant off. Still a nice quote.

bropous · 01-17-2002, 10:05 PM

Well, actually, Kevin, there are a good number of closely related fish species which do interbreed when territories overlap. It's distinct species within the same genus, and they do interbreed, and not just infertile hybrids.

Just to be clear: My original point on the race issue is there is only ONE race, and that cosmetic differences make no individual better than any other. For any reason, no human being is inherently better than another for any physical characteristic.

Except if they are Eskimo. [ducks. just kidding! figured there weren't any Inuits in the group...]

afro-elf · 01-17-2002, 10:12 PM

Quote:

Incidentally, It is my firm belief that all 'negroid' people are inherently evil.

ROTFLMHO

Wayfarer · 01-17-2002, 10:17 PM

Yep! And they don't have a sense of humour, either!

Kevin McIntyre · 01-17-2002, 10:17 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by bropous
Well, actually, Kevin, there are a good number of closely related fish species which do interbreed when territories overlap. It's distinct species within the same genus, and they do interbreed, and not just infertile hybrids.

Just to be clear: My original point on the race issue is there is only ONE race, and that cosmetic differences make no individual better than any other. For any reason, no human being is inherently better than another for any physical characteristic.

Except if they are Eskimo. [ducks. just kidding! figured there weren't any Inuits in the group...]

the exception proves the rule. Species classification (however inpreice) is a valid form of classification, whereas racially is not - which I think is your point (and mine).

You would be surprised who is Inuits, and that they have Internet Access.

Wayfarer · 01-17-2002, 10:19 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Kevin McIntyre
You would be surprised who is Inuits, and that they have Internet Access.

I'm from the Rural US, and we connect by Carrier Pigeon.

Kevin McIntyre · 01-17-2002, 10:26 PM

define rural. I live in what is considered rural, but talk about a silly classification - everythings only twenty - thirty minutes from here

Wayfarer · 01-17-2002, 10:29 PM

I live in South Dakota...

I'm Vicaraously Rural.

Arathorn · 01-17-2002, 10:34 PM

Wayfarer,

Man, them pigeons of yours must be really fast. Are they related to those Hogwarts owls, by any chance?

Wayfarer · 01-17-2002, 10:46 PM

No...

They're Hybridized with Great Eagles.

You wouldn't believe the Packet Size I get on these babies!

afro-elf · 01-17-2002, 11:29 PM

Quote:

Yep! And they don't have a sense of humour, either!

OOPS!, I forgot to place that in my previous post.

I guess I'm inherently the Lord of Typos.

I drove through S.D. once. It looked the same in all directions.

Arathorn · 01-17-2002, 11:43 PM

Afro Elf

Unless you are also an inherent liar about your profile, here's wishing you a happy birthday dude..

afro-elf · 01-17-2002, 11:50 PM

Thanks.

Nice having you aboard.

It says you are in Manilla. Are Phillipino?

Arathorn · 01-18-2002, 12:00 AM

Yup..

you can find us just about anywhere you go and in all shapes, sizes, and skin tone.

afro-elf · 01-18-2002, 12:48 AM

A large number of your compatriots work here in Saudi.

However, I can only speak to the women when I go to the hospital or clinic.

I'm getting very good and getting vague illnesses.

They ( the women) have it even worse than I do here.

It's really a Nazi Muslim regime here.

Nibs Cotton · 01-18-2002, 08:03 PM

As far as classification,there is only Homo Sapien,but to say there is only one race is absurd thinking,there are many different races,and cultures.To be an idealist is something for future generations to strive for,but lazy in theory.To realize there are many differences in humans,and to try and understand these differences,and to except each culture,is being a realist,and this is much better,and shows greater respect to those you have yet to understand,and learn from.The only problem with being an idealist is,that its foundation is always looking for solutions tomorrow,when the same problem exist today,idealist,also have a habit of using political correctness,to stifle any difference in opinion,or just wave the politcal correctness brush over problems,and saying that the rules are now in place to fix them,when many questions are left unanswered.At first thought it would be neat to have John Lennon as your countries leader,but wouldn't things run much better if Martin Luther King was in charge?Although M.L.K.used idealogy in his speeches,he was a realist when it came to overcoming diversity.A person should never forget his roots.man hasn't for thousands of years,and thousands of years from now,man will still know his origin.The only type of racism,that I believe J.R.R. Tolkien was ever guilty of,is the unknowing kind,simply because of his origin geographically.It was noted by the experts that Tolkien was very fond of Northernness,there is nothing malice in this.Nor did I sense racism,or homosexuality in his work.

___________________________________________
qouted by bropous:

no human being is inherently better than another for any physical characteristic.
Except if they are Eskimo. [ducks. just kidding! figured there weren't any Inuits in the group

____________________________________________
This bothers me,he puts down a paticular race,then says he is"just kidding",in the belief there aren't any of that race to read his joking statement.What if there were?and could you inject any race into that statement,and it still have the same overtone?I know most will feel that I am going overboard,and maybe so,but would you feel the same way if you were Inupiats,Yupik,or any other proud native of Alaska?And yes I am biased,but it is to a paticular persons thinking process.

01-17-2002, 09:13 PM	#42
bropous EIDRIORCQWSDAKLMED DCWWTIWOATTOPWFIO Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Littleton, CO Posts: 1,176	And separating species, even less precise delineation, is excessively tedious! In trying to determine the identity of a fish between two very closely related species, sometimes it comes down to the count of fish scales located around the eye.... I can see it now....."Hey! Fourteen-scaler! Get away from that water fountain...it's a fifteen-scale fountain only!" __________________ "...[The Lord of the Rings] is to exemplify most clearly a recurrent theme: the place in 'world politics' of the unforeseen and unforeseeable acts of will, and deeds of virtue of the apparently small, ungreat, fogotten in the places of the Wise and Great (good as well as evil). A moral of the whole (after the primary symbolism of the Ring, as the will to mere power, seeking to make itself objective by physical force and mechanism, and so also inevitably by lies) is the obvious one that without the high and noble the simple and vulgar is utterly mean; and without the simple and ordinary the noble and heroic is meaningless." Letters of JRR Tolkien, page 160.

01-17-2002, 09:50 PM	#45
bropous EIDRIORCQWSDAKLMED DCWWTIWOATTOPWFIO Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Littleton, CO Posts: 1,176	Well, it may not be the most definitive quote by Tolkien on the political aspects of the LotR, but here goes: "[The Lord of the Rings] is to exemplify most clearly a recurrent theme: the place in 'world politics' of the unforeseen and unforeseeable acts of will, and deeds of virtue of the apparently small, ungreat, fogotten in the places of the Wise and Great (good as well as evil). A moral of the whole (afterthe primary symbolism of the Ring, as the will to mere power, seeking to make itself objective by physical force and mechanism, and so also inevitably by lies) is the obvious one that wihtout the high and noble the simple and vulgar is utterly mean; and without the simple and ordinary the noble and heroic is meaningless." Letters of JRR Tolkien, page 160. I guess this is part of why I have felt the books have made such an impression on me. It is not the lesson that one has to be mighty or bold or well-known to make a difference in life. Frodo and Samwise are "everyman", achievable models of ethical behavior in the face of seemingly insurmountable odds. The actions of the smallest among us can begin events which bring down entire nations. Or preserve them. Wonderful sentiments from a wonderful man. It is a real benefit to society that so many new millions of Tolkien readers will learn this lesson. There will be some that miss it, but the positive lesson won't get by the majority of them. Oh well, rant off. Still a nice quote. __________________ "...[The Lord of the Rings] is to exemplify most clearly a recurrent theme: the place in 'world politics' of the unforeseen and unforeseeable acts of will, and deeds of virtue of the apparently small, ungreat, fogotten in the places of the Wise and Great (good as well as evil). A moral of the whole (after the primary symbolism of the Ring, as the will to mere power, seeking to make itself objective by physical force and mechanism, and so also inevitably by lies) is the obvious one that without the high and noble the simple and vulgar is utterly mean; and without the simple and ordinary the noble and heroic is meaningless." Letters of JRR Tolkien, page 160.

01-17-2002, 10:05 PM	#46
bropous EIDRIORCQWSDAKLMED DCWWTIWOATTOPWFIO Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Littleton, CO Posts: 1,176	Well, actually, Kevin, there are a good number of closely related fish species which do interbreed when territories overlap. It's distinct species within the same genus, and they do interbreed, and not just infertile hybrids. Just to be clear: My original point on the race issue is there is only ONE race, and that cosmetic differences make no individual better than any other. For any reason, no human being is inherently better than another for any physical characteristic. Except if they are Eskimo. [ducks. just kidding! figured there weren't any Inuits in the group...] __________________ "...[The Lord of the Rings] is to exemplify most clearly a recurrent theme: the place in 'world politics' of the unforeseen and unforeseeable acts of will, and deeds of virtue of the apparently small, ungreat, fogotten in the places of the Wise and Great (good as well as evil). A moral of the whole (after the primary symbolism of the Ring, as the will to mere power, seeking to make itself objective by physical force and mechanism, and so also inevitably by lies) is the obvious one that without the high and noble the simple and vulgar is utterly mean; and without the simple and ordinary the noble and heroic is meaningless." Letters of JRR Tolkien, page 160.

01-17-2002, 10:17 PM	#48
Wayfarer The Insufferable Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 3,333	Yep! And they don't have a sense of humour, either! __________________ Disgraced he may be, yet is not dethroned, and keeps the rags of lordship once he owned

01-17-2002, 10:29 PM	#52
Wayfarer The Insufferable Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 3,333	I live in South Dakota... I'm Vicaraously Rural. __________________ Disgraced he may be, yet is not dethroned, and keeps the rags of lordship once he owned

01-17-2002, 10:26 PM	#51
Kevin McIntyre Elven Warrior Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Bree Posts: 148	define rural. I live in what is considered rural, but talk about a silly classification - everythings only twenty - thirty minutes from here

01-17-2002, 10:34 PM	#53
Arathorn Bard of Mangled Songs Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: West of Middle Earth...oh alright...Manila Posts: 2,679	Wayfarer, Man, them pigeons of yours must be really fast. Are they related to those Hogwarts owls, by any chance? __________________ Power attracts the corruptible. Absolute power attracts the absolutely corruptible. -Missionaria Protectiva, Frank Herbert *Accio, Ash Nazg!* Elennuru s?la lúmenn' omentielvo* (The Death Star shines on the hour of our meeting) - Darth Arathorn Put aside the ranger... Start looking for Mumakil action figures...

01-17-2002, 10:46 PM	#54
Wayfarer The Insufferable Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 3,333	No... They're Hybridized with Great Eagles. You wouldn't believe the Packet Size I get on these babies! __________________ Disgraced he may be, yet is not dethroned, and keeps the rags of lordship once he owned

01-17-2002, 11:43 PM	#56
Arathorn Bard of Mangled Songs Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: West of Middle Earth...oh alright...Manila Posts: 2,679	Afro Elf Unless you are also an inherent liar about your profile, here's wishing you a happy birthday dude.. __________________ Power attracts the corruptible. Absolute power attracts the absolutely corruptible. -Missionaria Protectiva, Frank Herbert *Accio, Ash Nazg!* Elennuru s?la lúmenn' omentielvo* (The Death Star shines on the hour of our meeting) - Darth Arathorn Put aside the ranger... Start looking for Mumakil action figures...

01-17-2002, 11:50 PM	#57
afro-elf Hoplite Nomad Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 3,931	Thanks. Nice having you aboard. It says you are in Manilla. Are Phillipino? __________________ About Eowyn, Does anyone know what her alias Dernhelm means? She was kown as dernhelm because of her exclaimation when she realized that the rider's headgear was heavy and obscured her sight. 'Dern Helm" Culled from Entmoot From Kirinski 57 and Wayfarer.

01-18-2002, 12:00 AM	#58
Arathorn Bard of Mangled Songs Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: West of Middle Earth...oh alright...Manila Posts: 2,679	Yup.. you can find us just about anywhere you go and in all shapes, sizes, and skin tone. __________________ Power attracts the corruptible. Absolute power attracts the absolutely corruptible. -Missionaria Protectiva, Frank Herbert *Accio, Ash Nazg!* Elennuru s?la lúmenn' omentielvo* (The Death Star shines on the hour of our meeting) - Darth Arathorn Put aside the ranger... Start looking for Mumakil action figures...

01-18-2002, 12:48 AM	#59
afro-elf Hoplite Nomad Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 3,931	A large number of your compatriots work here in Saudi. However, I can only speak to the women when I go to the hospital or clinic. I'm getting very good and getting vague illnesses. They ( the women) have it even worse than I do here. It's really a Nazi Muslim regime here. __________________ About Eowyn, Does anyone know what her alias Dernhelm means? She was kown as dernhelm because of her exclaimation when she realized that the rider's headgear was heavy and obscured her sight. 'Dern Helm" Culled from Entmoot From Kirinski 57 and Wayfarer.

01-18-2002, 08:03 PM	#60
Nibs Cotton Sapling Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 11	As far as classification,there is only Homo Sapien,but to say there is only one race is absurd thinking,there are many different races,and cultures.To be an idealist is something for future generations to strive for,but lazy in theory.To realize there are many differences in humans,and to try and understand these differences,and to except each culture,is being a realist,and this is much better,and shows greater respect to those you have yet to understand,and learn from.The only problem with being an idealist is,that its foundation is always looking for solutions tomorrow,when the same problem exist today,idealist,also have a habit of using political correctness,to stifle any difference in opinion,or just wave the politcal correctness brush over problems,and saying that the rules are now in place to fix them,when many questions are left unanswered.At first thought it would be neat to have John Lennon as your countries leader,but wouldn't things run much better if Martin Luther King was in charge?Although M.L.K.used idealogy in his speeches,he was a realist when it came to overcoming diversity.A person should never forget his roots.man hasn't for thousands of years,and thousands of years from now,man will still know his origin.The only type of racism,that I believe J.R.R. Tolkien was ever guilty of,is the unknowing kind,simply because of his origin geographically.It was noted by the experts that Tolkien was very fond of Northernness,there is nothing malice in this.Nor did I sense racism,or homosexuality in his work. ___________________________________________ qouted by bropous: no human being is inherently better than another for any physical characteristic. Except if they are Eskimo. [ducks. just kidding! figured there weren't any Inuits in the group ____________________________________________ This bothers me,he puts down a paticular race,then says he is"just kidding",in the belief there aren't any of that race to read his joking statement.What if there were?and could you inject any race into that statement,and it still have the same overtone?I know most will feel that I am going overboard,and maybe so,but would you feel the same way if you were Inupiats,Yupik,or any other proud native of Alaska?And yes I am biased,but it is to a paticular persons thinking process.