Are there any homosexual characters in The Silmarillion?

[sisterandcousinandaunt]

respond to post 27, or I shall cry.

BIG tears.

[Meriadoc Brandybuck]

Oh wow oh wow oh wow. Must post, must post. *posts*



I seriously doubt Tolkien even thought about it. "Hmm... should I have gay characters in my book?"
Yes, he does have male characters say to other male characters that they love them, but that is more of a deep deep (deep) friendship love.

Originally Posted by Tessar

Well, you know those Europeans. They're all a bit gay, really.


*RUNS FOR HIS LIFE!*

Kiiiiding.

... *keeps on running anyways*

Lol out loud.

Wait... why are you talking about Winnie the Pooh?

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Originally Posted by Peter_20

It's pretty interesting how those Elves survived for thousands of years without having sex and getting children even ONCE.

It's in their nature. Look at the Elves who were married; they had very, very few children over the course of those same thousands of years, often only one.

Originally Posted by Meriadoc Brandybuck

Lol out loud.

Laugh out loud out loud?

Originally Posted by Gaffer

How many homosexual characters are there in classic literature generally?

More than you might think...

[Rían]

re elves and children - it's my understand, through reading Tolkien's other writings, that conception was a choice. This means that a husband and wife could choose to enjoy sex but choose to not conceive at that time. The perfect birth control!

[Earniel]

Side discussion about Winnie the Pooh has been split off and moved to its own thread here.

[Rían]

*pout*

[Meriadoc Brandybuck]

Originally Posted by Gwaimir Windgem

Laugh out loud out loud?

It's from da Monk.

Originally Posted by Eärniel

Side discussion about Winnie the Pooh has been split off and moved to its own thread here.

What the heck was that about anyway?

[Butterbeer]

er, Winnie the pooh, i think, Merry!

If we wanted to widen the current topic (provided Merry does not side-track us as per usual )

we could ask: were there any sexually repressed characters in Tolkien's world? If so is this because they abstain? save themselves till marriage? or can we question their orientation? or were they actually like rabbits but no one talked about it, unlike today, and it was just that Elven women, living immortal lives just couldn't conceive much -

-otherwise, let's face it - they'd over-populate the planet - and there goes the story right off - the last alliance of men and Elves??? - what oh what is poor old Sauron going to do against the gathering armies of 17 million Elves??? - and anyway -

-imagine when it is Great great great great great great great great grandad's birthday - and all the sons grandchildren, great grandchildren, great great grandchildren etc etc etc .... (phew!) cousins, second cousins, their guests, brothers, aunts, uncles, his parents and grandparents, their relations etc etc - turned up for the party!!

Elven outside caterers and greeting card artists would be the new elite in an elven megatropolis - and would there be any trees left?

All those presents to be wrapped - it would eternally be present giving day - - let alone flets and buildings and barrels and bows and whotnot.

So - were elves actually rabid Rasputins - but the elf women could only conceive rarely? After all they always are happy to burst into song and they rarely seem tense!

Best, BB

[Peter_20]

I actually tend to think that Elves don't care about birthdays.
I mean, think about it:

"Congratulations, Galadriel!
You're now 5000 years old!"

[Lotesse]

Originally Posted by Butterbeer

er, Winnie the pooh, i think, Merry!

If we wanted to widen the current topic (provided Merry does not side-track us as per usual )

we could ask: were there any sexually repressed characters in Tolkien's world? If so is this because they abstain? save themselves till marriage? or can we question their orientation? or were they actually like rabbits but no one talked about it, unlike today, and it was just that Elven women, living immortal lives just couldn't conceive much -

-otherwise, let's face it - they'd over-populate the planet - and there goes the story right off - the last alliance of men and Elves??? - what oh what is poor old Sauron going to do against the gathering armies of 17 million Elves??? - and anyway -

-imagine when it is Great great great great great great great great grandad's birthday - and all the sons grandchildren, great grandchildren, great great grandchildren etc etc etc .... (phew!) cousins, second cousins, their guests, brothers, aunts, uncles, his parents and grandparents, their relations etc etc - turned up for the party!!

Elven outside caterers and greeting card artists would be the new elite in an elven megatropolis - and would there be any trees left?

All those presents to be wrapped - it would eternally be present giving day - - let alone flets and buildings and barrels and bows and whotnot.

So - were elves actually rabid Rasputins - but the elf women could only conceive rarely? After all they always are happy to burst into song and they rarely seem tense!

Best, BB

Such an awesome post!!!

[Jon S.]

What Tolkien Officially Said About Elf Sex

By Tyellas

http://www.ansereg.com/what_tolkien_...y_said_abo.htm

[Lotesse]

Great essay, Jon S., very cool, fascinating and extremely question-answering, 'cause me, for one, I have always, always wondered about these familial-relations sort of private elvish sexual lives, elf teenagers, elf lust, how long elf puberty is - those lucky bastards had fifty years to grow up before they had to bite the bullet and be grown up! Fifty years! but this is a great read, cool link baby, thanks ~

[katya]

Ok, I know I'm probably going to hell for this (among other things) but I think Maedhros and Fingon are adorable together. As close male friends even, fine. But I always thought one thing was a little odd. I don't remember where I read it but there was a note somewhere about what is acceptable for elves in terms of incest. There was one OK relation mentioned that fit Maedhros / Fingon but was impossible for all or almost all other elves, since it involved remarriage and elves didn't remarry after that one time (right?). My memory's a little hazy on the details so correct me if I'm wrong.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Originally Posted by Gwaimir Windgem

More than you might think...

Official retraction: Upon rethinking it of course occured to me that classically people were not really considered to be homosexual, or heterosexual, but only their actions were, so that there in fact are not 'homosexual characters', per se, in classical literature. At least, there are not 'more than you might think', so I hereby retract my statement. Yes, you can all mark your calendars.

[hectorberlioz]

Fido & Aeneas?

Oops, thats Dido & Aeneas

[Finrod Felagund]

"Seldom is any tale told of deeds of lust among them." Thus rape, molestation, and downloading slash all seem to have been out of the question for 99.9% of elves.

Hahaha!

[katya]

Ok, back on the whole Maedhros/Fingon thing, this was in "What Tolkien Officially Said About Elf Sex", but does anyone know the part in Morgoth's ring that it's referring to?

Notes in Morgoth's Ring imply that, if you were first cousins but your uncle was your father's half-brother, this abrogated the incest taboo enough that marriage was an option.

The thing about this that always struck me was, how, if not through remarriage, would an elf even end up with a half-brother in the first place? And isn't Finwe = Mirel / Indis the only instance of this? (Is it? Not sure..) So.... basically, the only significance such a rule would have would be to allow any of Feanor's sons to marry Aredhel (who's with Eol), Galadriel (who has Celeborn), or one of the boys. Like say, Fingon...?

Now, don't misunderstand; I'm not saying I really think Maedhros and Fingon are a couple, but it's kind of...and intriguing possibility. Any thoughts?

[Willow Oran]

How many homosexual characters are there in classic literature generally?

Originally Posted by Gwaimir Windgem
More than you might think...

Official retraction: Upon rethinking it of course occured to me that classically people were not really considered to be homosexual, or heterosexual, but only their actions were, so that there in fact are not 'homosexual characters', per se, in classical literature. At least, there are not 'more than you might think', so I hereby retract my statement.

Don't. Expand it to account for historical correctness of definitions if you must. But it is true enough to stand on it's own. This is why possesion of a dirty sense of humor seems to be a requirment for all latin teachers...

Poor Tolkien, being british, likely had censored classical texts to learn from when young and being Catholic as well, never stood a chance.

Just think what he might have written had he been more inspired by the uncut classical texts and pagan pantheons; Incest would be legal, shows of Manly Love/Bonding would have entailed more sweat and less gore, and Manwe would have an unhealthy fascination with bovines, nevermind that swan scandal...

We have all sorts of entertainment involving all manners of sex and ranging from ancient to hot off the press. It is permissible to have an epic story in which characters form close relationships without having hot monkey sex immediately following every battle. The beauty of the depth to which Tolkien took his work is that he doesn't have to include sex. He gives enough background that we may infer it's presence and nature without it being either present or important to the events on which the story is focused.

Should the thought of idealized, blindingly handsome and angelically heroic elven warriors or [insert hyberbolized adjectives] hobbits/men/dwarves/ainu/ents/orcs/etc. having sex turn you on, then by all means, be turned on in the privacy of your home. But don't assume that said fantasies would make the story better.

[brownjenkins]

Originally Posted by Willow Oran

The beauty of the depth to which Tolkien took his work is that he doesn't have to include sex. He gives enough background that we may infer it's presence and nature without it being either present or important to the events on which the story is focused.

You mean the Sam/Frodo thing?

[Willow Oran]

Infer away if that's your pleasure. It's certainly one of the most plausible pairings I've seen bandied about.

*thinks of the Elrond/Treebeard story she stumbled across long years ago and shudders*

At least Frodo/Sam is physically possible.