The Lord of the Rings Discussion : Chpts 7 and 8

[Rían]

Originally posted by Valandil
BTW - I suggest we transfer the discussion on Tom Bombadil's nature to another thread, since it goes well beyond the scope of this story. There's one just down the page which has already been bumped recently. I'll post some thoughts there soon.

yeah, you're right - the non-LOTR refs are kind of taking over - I'll scale back.

Interesting to me also are Merry's words upon waking. I don't know that he would have known of Carn Dum (the capital city of Angmar - an evil kingdom which over-ran the former kingdom in these barrows about 1600 years earlier). But he says; "What in the name of wonder? Of course, I remember! The men of Carn Dum came on us at night and we were worsted. Ah! The spear in my heart! No! No! What am I saying? I have been dreaming. Where did you get to, Frodo?"

This to me backs up the notions that the final thoughts of the man buried there were somehow being transmitted to Merry. And I gather that it was the remnants of this poor fellow's body which had been taken over by the wight... which was a spirit.

I agree - I don't think Merry would have known of Carn Dum at all. I think part of the wight's evilness was "consuming" or "taking over" its victims, and this was the last thought of the man it "got" - and if it had got Merry, then its next victim would be thinking "isn't it time for elevenses?"

[Last Child of Ungoliant]

Originally posted by RÃ*an
I agree - I don't think Merry would have known of Carn Dum at all. I think part of the wight's evilness was "consuming" or "taking over" its victims, and this was the last thought of the man it "got" - and if it had got Merry, then its next victim would be thinking "isn't it time for elevenses?" [/B]

or "hmm ... mushrooms for second-breakfast"

[Rían]

Originally posted by Nurvingiel
As the Eldest (whatever that entails) he would have this power. Galadriel, Sauron, the Nazgul, and the Ring are others who give people visions in the book, for good or ill.

I was thinking of somewhere (possibly - the Sil! ) where it is written how the more skilled among the Elven singers could make visions of what they were singing about appear. But I like your list - I hadn't thought of some of those.

[Rían]

Originally posted by The Gaffer
The fact that the wight has such important weapons in its hoard suggests to me that it lacks an active intelligence.

It reminds me of Smaug - how he had some common stuff, and some incredibly valuable stuff, and how (roughly) "he hardly knew a good bit of work from a bad, but had a general idea of the market value."

[Rían]

on the swords - I like the comment in ROTK about the sword that Merry had -

from ROTK (bolding added)
So passed the sword of the Barrow-downs, work of Westernesse. But glad would he have been to know its fate who wrought it slowly long ago in the North-kingdom when the Dunedain were young, and chief among their foes was the dread realm of Angmar and its sorcerer king. No other blade, not though mightier hands had wielded it, would have dealt that foe a wound so bitter, cleaving the undead flesh, breaking the spell that knit his unseen sinews to his will.

"chance" operating again ... Merry just "happened" to get that blade ...

Also, Frodo struck at the Witch-king's feet and evidently hurt him (a "shrill cry" rang out) and that might have made the Witch King's blade go just a bit off - he was aiming for Frodo's heart, IIRC, and maybe didn't get it in as far as he intended. That's why Frodo was able to make it to Rivendell - perhaps it bought him a few days.

[Valandil]

Coupla things about TB that are within the realm of this story:

1. I found it interesting how he KNEW what the hobbits had dreamed about - yet chided them for it - which indicates to me that he didn't send those dreams to them. ALSO - how he knew when they had woken up at night - and how the things said to them before they went to bed came back to calm them when they woke up in the middle of the night (like a night wind or starlight coming in - as Goldberry had said those were the only things that could pass the windows of that house). Interesting presentience all around (if that's the right word).

2. I find it amusing what Tom says when he decides to ride out with the hobbits after rescuing them from the barrow. It's like they keep getting into so much trouble, that it'll be less effort for him to just see them safely off his land, than to continue rescuing them from every old willow or barrow wight!

[The Gaffer]

Tom's house is definitely another place. At the risk of repeating myself from the last discussion, that last line in Chapter 5, when they arrive at the house, is a really strong suggestion that they're out of the normal temporal world:

And with that song the hobbits stood upon the threshold, and a golden light was about them

Etc etc. shut up Gaffer you old windbag

Oh, and who isGoldberry, then?

Is Tom just is, maybe Goldberry does?

[Rían]

I like how Tom and Goldberry are very different, yet compliment each other so well.

Val - yes, interesting how Tom knows their dreams, and told them in advance to not worry, and then chided them for worrying!

And your #2 point - yes, that's like me with cleaning up with the kids sometimes - I know I should train them, but sometimes it's just SO much easier to do it myself! and about 10 times faster!

[azalea]

[I just had to point out something: someone asked earlier if Tom could be Manwe and Goldberry Yavanna; however, Yavanna was AULE's wife! Unless there was some hanky panky going on!]

[Artanis]

Wonderful intro RÃ*an! Tried to answer some of your questions here, but I haven't read the posts in this thread, so I may repeat what others have said already.

Originally posted by RÃ*an
The most interesting thing in this chapter, to me, was how the Ring had no power over Tom. What are people's thoughts on this? .... Who do people think that Tom is? What does it mean when Goldberry answers this question with a "He is"? How does Tom answer this question when it's put to him?

I've read many theories on who Tom is - and I think there have been flaws in them all, but the one I like most is that Tom is the spirit of the Earth itself, or perhaps I should say, the Earth as it was meant to be, before it was corrupted by Morgoth (bringing in Sil things here ). There is a connection between Goldberry's "He is", and Eru's "Ea - Let these things be". People have speculated that he might be one of the Ainur, but I don't think so. He is certainly not a Vala, and he is probably not a Maia, in that case the Ring would have power over him. Just look at Saruman, Sauron and Gandalf. And it is said that Tom is the Eldest, that he was present before any other spirit in the world. "He knew the dark under the stars when it was fearless - before the Dark Lord came from Outside."

Dreams - here are several dreams listed - thoughts, anyone? And what about Frodo's dream, which Gandalf said was actually BEFORE that situation happened? What does that mean? EDIT - nevermind, I was wrong - it was AFTER! But it's still interesting that Frodo saw him so accurately!
.... Chance - here we see "chance" mentioned again - a theme throughout Tolkien. What are people's thoughts on this?

I tend to see 'chance' and certain dreams as the means of a higher being to influence the course of history. Gandalf's meeting with Thorin, Bilbo finding the Ring, Tom turning up in the crucial moment. I think Frodo's dream about Gandalf on the tower of Orthanc would be an explanation offered to him on why Gandalf didn't turn up in the Shire as he was supposed to. I have wondered if Frodo was more receptive of this dream just then because he was in such a peaceful place as Tom's house.

[Artanis]

Originally posted by RÃ*an
Frodo's first big "temptation" - starting with "then a wild thought of escape came to him..." - how does he deal with this, and what are the details of how he's tempted and his thoughts? Did the success here help him in later temptations?

This was a great moment in the book. Frodo could have escaped for himself, alone, and left the others behind. As he says to himself, with thoughts given to him by the Ring, I imagine, no one would have blamed him. But he had just found a new courage within himself, brought forth by the hopelessly dangerous situation he was caught in. And MUCH more important, he was NOT willing to abandon his friends. This is really a powerful description of the friendship between the Hobbits. Friendship was stronger than the temptation from the Ring.

More later ...

[Rían]

Originally posted by Artanis
... As he says to himself, with thoughts given to him by the Ring, I imagine, ...

Great thought, Arty! I never thought of the Ring's influence with those pictures in his head and those thoughts ... I bet you're right!

[Rían]

I'm off for the weekend for a romatic (read: kid-less!) get-away with my husband (all praise to my parents for watching the kiddos, may the hair on their toes - er, heads never fall out!) I'll check in on the thread on Monday. I'd be esp. interested in hearing more on the shared characteristics of the various evil creatures we've seen so far, and perhaps more on the temptation theme we'll see more of later on (I'm assuming flash-aheads are OK here) - who is tempted, and how, and how they deal with it.

Ta-ta!

[Beren3000]

Ok, here's a comparison between Old man Willow and the Wight:

Both of them use some sort of spell to hypnotize the hobbits.
OMW's purpose seems to be physical, namely killing the hobbits. The Wight, on the other hand had a more "ethereal" purpose (if that's the right word), which is to posess the hobbit's souls or something similar.

A little bit off-point:
The Wight uses an incantation to entrance the hobbits: again we see the theme of the strength of the word in Arda; there words seem to have a physical existence of their own and can be used to various ends as is obvious in all of Tolkien's work.

An interesting similar feature that unites all of Tolkien's villains is their use of deception and/or temptation. This occured in the cases of OMW and the Wight and we'll see it later with "the voice of Saruman" and Sauron's deception of Denethor and his whisperings in the ears of the Numenoreans and the Elves of Eregion. This is characteristic of the concept of evil in Christianity (and perhaps many other religions): evil often comes down on you disguised and tries to play on your weaknesses or desires to achieve its end...

Hope that's enough

P.S. happy weekend, Rian

[The Gaffer]

I don't know that either of these characters offered any overt temptation. It was more like they trapped the unwary hobbits using their powers, which I agree, seem to be based around song. A bit like Leonard Cohen.

One difference is how Tom treats them: he seems to have respect for Old Man Willow (at least he respects his right to exist, and doesn't dig him up) whereas the wight is despatched post haste.

Tolkien offers lots of different conceptions of baddies. Smaug was a complex and intelligent character whose vanity was his downfall; Sauron is a cipher of unmitigated nastiness. Saruman, of course, has fallen from grace as a result of getting too absorbed in studying the arts of badness.

A bit lower down the pecking order, it seems that bad characters always wear black hats. The squinty-eyed southerner springs to mind here.

Yet, Sam says that he'd expect a servant of the enemy to "seem fair yet feel foul", at which Aragorn takes the hump.

Have a grand, well deserved, weekend, Rian.

[Elanor the Fair]

I'm going to attempt to post a link to a web site that has a file that I scanned. This shows part of a map that details the hobbits journey from Hobbiton. Well, here goes......

[Elanor the Fair]

Well, that didn't work! I will have to try something else!!

[Elanor the Fair]

I'm going to try again. If the picture doesn't come up, then I have also provided the web link until I can solve the problem. Here I go again.....



http://www.cyberinter.net/cyberpix/lotrmap.html

Thanks to Khamûl and Linaewen for their help in attempting to solve this problem.

[Elanor the Fair]

Well, the web link worked but the image link did not.

I really wanted the image to come in without having to click on a link, however, I will keep working on it.

The map is part of a series of maps that plots the journey of all the members of the Fellowship from Hobbiton to their journey's end. I wanted to scan and post the maps into the appropriate pages of the discussion project so we all have a visual image!!

The book is "The Atlas of Middle Earth" by Karen Wynn Fonstad, published in 1981. She is a cartographer whose interest in Tolkien inspired her to publish this book.

I hope you find the maps useful!

[Valandil]

Yay!!! Great job Elenor! Thank you very much!