Gildor Inglorion

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by The Dread Pirate Roberts

Gildor: May Elbereth protect you! Because I sure won't!"

[CAB]

Originally Posted by Gordis

Yes, there is something in it. Perhaps the Calaquendi only glow when in battle-mode?

Hmm…yeah, that could explain it.

Originally Posted by Eärniel

We know what happened to the Hobbits after they left Gildor, we judge Gildor accordingly. Gildor did NOT know what was going to happen, and he acted accordingly to what he did know or guessed. I think, given the situation as it was known then, pretty much none of us would have accompanied Frodo either.

I believe I understand what you are saying Earniel (though this may pertain more to Curufin's argument), but I still strongly disagree. We all regularly walk by or look the other way when someone or something could use our help, and usually the reason for doing so is pure convenience. We each have our own lives to live and there are simply too many situations where we could give our time and effort. There aren't enough hours in the day.

But there are times when we do go out of our way for strangers, and this should have been such an occasion. To me, the reason is quite clear. That reason is the extraordinary magnitude of the situation, something that would be difficult to parallel in the real world. Although Gildor probably didn't fully appreciate the importance of what was happening (but he may have), he had to have a pretty good guess (also, as Gordis pointed out, he conveniently didn't ask too many questions).

Gildor's list of excuses (which, yes, we all look for) is quite thin in my opinion. He apparently had no pressing business (he himself said he was tarrying). He wasn't traveling with children. Yes he could say it wasn't any of his concern and was dangerous. These are reasons people often give not to help others. Accepting that we are all selfish beings, I would say these are typically good reasons. But again, this isn't a typical situation. The well being of every person in Middle Earth (who couldn't run away to Valinor, at least) hinged on Frodo getting to Rivendell and Gildor, if he didn't know it, had to strongly suspect it.

I didn't give the excuse that the Elves' presence would be a disadvantage to Frodo because I will never believe it. That these pitifully underprepared hobbits were better off alone that with a group of Noldorian Elves doesn't at all ring true and it isn't one of the reasons Gildor himself gave (those would be apathy and fear). If Gildor knew that Frodo's burden was the Ring, he had little reason to fear its effect on him and his companions because he couldn't possibly have known about Gollum's story and his was the only case of someone other that a ringholder being twisted by a ring of power at that date.

Even if we accept that the Elves' presence would have compromised the hobbits' stealth (I don't), still that stealth was already failing. And stealth won't feed you on a long road when you get hungry and stealth certainly won't get you to a valley that you don't know how to find.

Frodo never would have made it to Rivendell without further aid. Gandalf knew it, Aragorn openly said it, and Gildor knew it too.

[The Dread Pirate Roberts]

In addition, Gildor must have at one time felt an affinity for Middle Earth and/or its inhabitants. Otherwise, he would have left with most other Noldor after the War of Wrath. So either something changed for him (perhaps he really was beginning to fade) or something about his behavior doesn't add up.

[Curufin]

I think it's quite likely that he was starting to fade. After all, they'd been in Middle-earth for around 7,000 years at this point...

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Curufin

I think it's quite likely that he was starting to fade. After all, they'd been in Middle-earth for around 7,000 years at this point...

Yes, to prevent fading, one had to spend most of his time in the time-warped realms of Lorien and Rivendell, not to wander somewhere in the Shire or around Elostirion. If Gildor did so regularly, he was quite likely more faded than Galadriel.

[The Dread Pirate Roberts]

Not to change the subject, but is fading reversible? I mean, could one become rejuvinated and regain strength of body, even if only temporarily?

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Eärniel

Oh yes, equal rights... everybody a slave!

Slaves normally don't feel honor-bound to fight to death for a lost cause. They would happily turn tail and flee. But we are really digressing from the topic of the noble Gildor Inglorion...

[Curufin]

Slaves normally don't feel honor-bound to fight to death for a lost cause. They would happily turn tail and flee.

Not so. You're underestimating the mental control many slave-holders have over their slaves, as well as the 'brainwashing' power. But this is severely off topic.

As Eärniel and I have both said, people are judging Gildor with 20/20 hindsight. To repeat: he didn't know what was going to happen with the Hobbits later on down the line.

In addition, they didn't ask for help:

‘You do not ask me or tell me much that concerns yourself, Frodo,’ said Gildor. ‘But I already know a little, and I can read more in your face and in the thought behind your questions. You are leaving the Shire, and yet you doubt that you will find what you seek, or accomplish what you intend, or that you will ever return. Is not that so?’

Frodo won't tell Gildor anything.

And, I ask again - why should Gildor care?

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by The Dread Pirate Roberts

Not to change the subject, but is fading reversible? I mean, could one become rejuvinated and regain strength of body, even if only temporarily?

Maybe only in Valinor?

However, I have speculated on the other forum (much to Tuor's distress ) that the Nine Rings could have been made just for that purpose - to stop or reverse fading, strengthening the hroar. That's why the Rings gave access to the World of Shadow.

Maybe an Elf wearing one of the Nine would never fade. The hroar of Men were also strengthened, but they were never meant to endure long: thus they were preserved from ageing and death, but started fading like Elven hroar instead.

[Curufin]

Originally Posted by Gordis

Maybe only in Valinor?

However, I have speculated on the other forum (much to Tuor's distress ) that the Nine Rings could have been made just for that purpose - to stop or reverse fading, strengthening the hroar. That's why the Rings gave access to the World of Shadow.

Maybe an Elf wearing one of the Nine would never fade. The hroar of Men were also strengthened, but they were never meant to endure long: thus they were preserved from ageing and death, but started fading like Elven hroar instead.

Hmm, an interesting idea, Gordis, although of course there is no textual support for it. Personally, I doubt that it could completely stop fading - I don't believe that anything made by Elves could completely reverse the marring of Melkor - but perhaps it significantly slows it...

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Curufin

As Eärniel and I have both said, people are judging Gildor with 20/20 hindsight. To repeat: he didn't know what was going to happen with the Hobbits later on down the line.

I agree: Gildor didn’t know what was going to happen with the Hobbits “later on down the line”. He didn’t know they were going to get to Rivendell safely after all – regardless of his selfish inaction. For all he knew, they could have been captured by the nazgul – right after the Elves left or in a day or two – any time in fact on the long road to Rivendell.
We know Gildor’s inaction mattered little, but he had no way to know it! Again your argument suits our side better than yours.

Frodo won't tell Gildor anything.

Not on his own – but then Gildor never asked him. If he did ask and Frodo refused to answer that would be another indication of the importance of the thing he carried. But I think with enough persuasion, Frodo would have told everything. Only Gildor didn’t want to know.

And, I ask again - why should Gildor care?

Well he thought he had no reasons to care, it seems. Then don’t get offended, Curufin, when we judge the guy accordingly. Off with him to Valinor…

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Curufin

Personally, I doubt that it could completely stop fading - I don't believe that anything made by Elves could completely reverse the marring of Melkor - but perhaps it significantly slows it...

But the Elves have got competent help from Melkor's own pupil.

[The Dread Pirate Roberts]

Originally Posted by Curufin

And, I ask again - why should Gildor care?

Because he's supposed to be one of the good guys. Good guys care about the plights of others, especially when those plights could mean the end of the world. Does Gildor have a selfish interest in helping the Hobbits? Nope. So the only reason he should help them would be unselfish, which he apparently isn't.

[Curufin]

Originally Posted by Gordis

I agree: Gildor didn’t know what was going to happen with the Hobbits “later on down the line”. He didn’t know they were going to get to Rivendell safely after all – regardless of his selfish inaction. For all he knew, they could have been captured by the nazgul – right after the Elves left or in a day or two – any time in fact on the long road to Rivendell.
We know Gildor’s inaction mattered little, but he had no way to know it! Again your argument suits our side better than yours.

Alright, so why don't we judge everyone the Hobbits meet who is stronger than them as being 'selfish' if they don't help out? Let's see...Gandalf doesn't help them get to Rivendell. Selfish! None of the men in Bree help them get to Rivendell. Jerks! Tom Bombadil - who is far stronger than Gildor and knows exactly what Frodo has (and likely exactly what he is doing) doesn't help him get to Rivendell. What a selfish loser!

Seriously, if we judge Gildor like this, why not judge them accordingly, especially Bombadil? Gildor gave them as much as Bombadil did, and yet we don't have threads going on and on about how Bombadil was a selfish loser who left the hobbits to suffer on their own (which he did). And what was Bombadil's reason? A lot less defensible than Gildor's!

[Curufin]

Originally Posted by The Dread Pirate Roberts

Because he's supposed to be one of the good guys. Good guys care about the plights of others, especially when those plights could mean the end of the world. Does Gildor have a selfish interest in helping the Hobbits? Nope. So the only reason he should help them would be unselfish, which he apparently isn't.

Gildor also has leadership responsibilites for the other Elves he's leading. He can't just throw these aside to go lolly around Middle-earth with a bunch of hobbits.

[Belwen_of_nargothrond]

I see nothing wrong with Gildor.

[CAB]

Originally Posted by Gordis

I agree: Gildor didn’t know what was going to happen with the Hobbits “later on down the line”. He didn’t know they were going to get to Rivendell safely after all – regardless of his selfish inaction. For all he knew, they could have been captured by the nazgul – right after the Elves left or in a day or two – any time in fact on the long road to Rivendell.
We know Gildor’s inaction mattered little, but he had no way to know it! Again your argument suits our side better than yours.


Not on his own – but then Gildor never asked him. If he did ask and Frodo refused to answer that would be another indication of the importance of the thing he carried. But I think with enough persuasion, Frodo would have told everything. Only Gildor didn’t want to know.


Well he thought he had no reasons to care, it seems. Then don’t get offended, Curufin, when we judge the guy accordingly. Off with him to Valinor…

I agree with every point Gordis makes here. Gildor's apathy in spite of his lack of knowledge of the future is the problem. His not caring about the people he will leave behind when he goes to Valinor is the problem.

Originally Posted by Curufin

Alright, so why don't we judge everyone the Hobbits meet who is stronger than them as being 'selfish' if they don't help out? Let's see...Gandalf doesn't help them get to Rivendell. Selfish! None of the men in Bree help them get to Rivendell. Jerks! Tom Bombadil - who is far stronger than Gildor and knows exactly what Frodo has (and likely exactly what he is doing) doesn't help him get to Rivendell. What a selfish loser!

Seriously, if we judge Gildor like this, why not judge them accordingly, especially Bombadil? Gildor gave them as much as Bombadil did, and yet we don't have threads going on and on about how Bombadil was a selfish loser who left the hobbits to suffer on their own (which he did). And what was Bombadil's reason? A lot less defensible than Gildor's!

Come on now. If Gandalf was present, don't you think he would have done everything in his power to help. As for the Men in Bree, only one really understood Frodo's plight and was capable of giving competent aid and he is the main reason Frodo made it to Rivendell.

As for Bombadil, you have a point. If you want to say that Bombadil was selfish, you won't get an argument from me. Even so, Bombadil is something of an enigma and I'm not sure how much help he would have been outside of his own domain.

[Earniel]

Originally Posted by Gordis

However, I have speculated on the other forum (much to Tuor's distress ) that the Nine Rings could have been made just for that purpose - to stop or reverse fading, strengthening the hroar. That's why the Rings gave access to the World of Shadow.

Was it here? I think I missed that thread. Sounds like an interesting hypothesis, though...

Originally Posted by Gordis

Again your argument suits our side better than yours.

Depends. If we thought our argument would suit your side better, I doubt we'd be using it!

[Curufin]

Originally Posted by CAB

I agree with every point Gordis makes here. Gildor's apathy in spite of his lack of knowledge of the future is the problem. His not caring about the people he will leave behind when he goes to Valinor is the problem.


Come on now. If Gandalf was present, don't you think he would have done everything in his power to help. As for the Men in Bree, only one really understood Frodo's plight and was capable of giving competent aid and he is the main reason Frodo made it to Rivendell.

As for Bombadil, you have a point. If you want to say that Bombadil was selfish, you won't get an argument from me. Even so, Bombadil is something of an enigma and I'm not sure how much help he would have been outside of his own domain.

Ok, let me ask this question another way.

Name me one person (just one) who helps the Hobbits who doesn't have a foot in this race.

My point? Nobody - with the possible exception of the Hobbits, although they could be said to be doing this to protect the Shire - acts out of pure altruism.

[CAB]

Originally Posted by Curufin

Ok, let me ask this question another way.

Name me one person (just one) who helps the Hobbits who doesn't have a foot in this race.

The root problem is that Gildor doesn't think he has "a foot in this race". He should have had some care for all the thousands of people who were in danger of falling under Sauron. The fact that he doesn't give more aid is merely the result of this problem.

Originally Posted by Curufin

My point? Nobody - with the possible exception of the Hobbits, although they could be said to be doing this to protect the Shire - acts out of pure altruism.

I would argue that no one (including the hobbits) acted out of pure altruism because pure altruism is a myth. It doesn't exist. But I don't suppose this is the place to discuss that, even if I was inclined to. Given your defense of Gildor, I thought you might agree with me on this point.