Global Warming Debate

[Lizra]

Thanks Gaffer...I needed that this morning! ((hugs))

[sisterandcousinandaunt]

But this is a very small sample of public opinion and understanding on this point. Is it related to the tendency of the young to forecast their own (and by implication everyone else's) immortality? Or is it part of a larger swing away from the basic principles of the Scientific Method?

I worry that it's the second. If we raise people who don't understand WHY scientists talk carefully about proof as regards evolution, or global warming, and take that to mean "Some fellow with letters after his name disagrees, the scientists themselves admit it's not 'proven', therefore ya pays yer money and ya takes yer choice," we have left ourselves a civilization ripe for demagogues, whether political, spiritual, or corporate.

If that's the outlook, global warming may be the slowest of our problems. As Professor Kirk said, "What are they teaching them in these schools?"

[hectorberlioz]

Originally Posted by Lizra

Read and reread......
On consensus, it is a simple fact that the vast majority of scientists agree with the IPCC statement. The ones that don't are usually paid to say so by the oil industry, which wants us to carry on using more and more oil all the time.

I guess Gaffer is right, the education some people are getting is politically biased.

As Telcontarian pointed out, other planets are also warming. I'm just not sure cows can shoot their methane that far.

[hectorberlioz]

Richrad Lindzen is the former president of the National Academy of Sciences, and he still serves on their panel. He helped write the IPPC report.

By the way, thank you to Earniel and Nurv for actually talking about the issue.

[hectorberlioz]

Originally Posted by Eärniel

Well, one of the chief sources of methane is cattle, and methane is I believe a stronger green house gas than CO2. But, the cattle's 'out-put' is still smaller than our CO2-output and methane (IIRC) stays in the atmosphere for a shorter time than CO2.

Which makes me wonder why it was news at all. It doesn't seem to be dangerous, cows have been around for quite awhile after all...

Also, never have the SUV's been cited as sole source of climate change.

I know, I'm sorry I made it seem like that. But they are very commonly cited as examples.

And the unnatural high number and density of cattle is man-made. So even if hypothetically, the cattle's methane was the biggest contributor to global warming, it would still be man-made.

This is the first time I've heard this side of the debate about cows...thanks Earniel.

Originally Posted by sisterandcousinandaunt

tolkienfan can't help that the people responsible for his/her education have chosen to keep science a secret.

Thats what I'd call an insult, and an ad hominum attack on the person, rather than an engagement in discussion of what that person knows...and Tolkienfan does not seem to be an idiot, she (I'm assuming) has actually engaged the topic, rather than merely blabbing how ignorant everyone else is.

[Butterbeer]

sisterandcousinandaunt is far too cumbersome a name - can we agree some sort of shorter version?

Sister C or Aunty SC?

Thats what I'd call an insult, and an ad hominum attack on the person, rather than an engagement in discussion of what that person knows...and Tolkienfan does not seem to be an idiot, she (I'm assuming) has actually engaged the topic, rather than merely blabbing how ignorant everyone else is.

I disagree, the point was, i felt, general, rather than personal, and pertinent to the attack on Science and the perceived neoTheocracy-led far right leanings we begin to see seeping into education in certain areas, and hence highly relevant to the debate.

[sisterandcousinandaunt]

I answer to both "Sis" and "Earl", which is Leif's nick for me.

Hector, I meant no attack on tolkienfan. In fact, I addressed my remark to Nurv because I was concerned her frustration over this as a source of "scientific information" would be perceived as an attack.

At the risk of setting you off again, so much of this comes down to evaluating sources. And after you've evaluated the source in general (who pays their bills, what constitutancy do they represent) you can evaluate the individual studies cited, for scientific rigor.

It's not enough that the answer conforms with our worldview. Sadly, in many cases, but it's not. If you want a religious debate on global warming, it might be framed as "In Genesis, God gave Man dominion over the animals. If that is God's plan for Man, can we not trust Him to protect us from any possible effect of global warming?"

[hectorberlioz]

Originally Posted by sisterandcousinandaunt

It's not enough that the answer conforms with our worldview. Sadly, in many cases, but it's not. If you want a religious debate on global warming, it might be framed as "In Genesis, God gave Man dominion over the animals. If that is God's plan for Man, can we not trust Him to protect us from any possible effect of global warming?"

I don't want a religious debate on global warming, what I'm after is debate in the line of discussing the impact of CO2s, Methane Cows, Global Warming in previous times etc...

Is that too much to ask without having my intelligence insulted, tolkienfan's childhood being scrutinized, and a general turning from the issue to personal attacks?

Originally Posted by Butterbeer

I disagree, the point was, i felt, general, rather than personal, and pertinent to the attack on Science and the perceived neoTheocracy-led far right leanings we begin to see seeping into education in certain areas, and hence highly relevant to the debate.

Pertinent to the attack on science? What attack on science has occured here?

[hectorberlioz]

The debate about Global Warming will now re-start.

Explanations about co2s working (or not) in the atmosphere will be welcomed, and also discussion about what the weather has been doing in the past few years.

[Rían]

Originally Posted by sisterandcousinandaunt

As Professor Kirk said, "What are they teaching them in these schools?"

One of my favorite quotes of all times, and sadly pertinent

Originally Posted by hector

As Telcontarian pointed out, other planets are also warming. I'm just not sure cows can shoot their methane that far.

That was just too funny!

Originally Posted by sis

It's not enough that the answer conforms with our worldview.

Yes!!! *fistpump* She uses the "W" word!!!!

btw, sis, I asked you somewhere else but I can't remember where, but are you a Gilbert and Sullivan fan? (your name makes me think that)

[sisterandcousinandaunt]

I saw that but I felt silly dragging that thread to the top again to say so.

I just love those mob G&S entrances, and so many of the posters here being musical, I thought it was appropriate.

*backs away so as not to derail the new debate further*

[hectorberlioz]

Originally Posted by sisterandcousinandaunt

I saw that but I felt silly dragging that thread to the top again to say so.

I just love those mob G&S entrances, and so many of the posters here being musical, I thought it was appropriate.

*backs away so as not to derail the new debate further*

And you haven't visited the Classical Music thread in the Entertainment forum yet...shameful!

[sisterandcousinandaunt]

Originally Posted by hectorberlioz

And you haven't visited the Classical Music thread in the Entertainment forum yet...shameful!

what makes you think I haven't?

[Lizra]

Originally Posted by hectorberlioz

By the way, thank you to Earniel and Nurv for actually talking about the issue.

Hector....bite me. I'll not waste my time on you then. Go about your merry way dude.

[hectorberlioz]

Originally Posted by Lizra

Hector....bite me. I'll not waste my time on you then. Go about your merry way dude.

I'm sorry Lizra, but all you've done-and all you have been doing when you respond to my posts- is make little mean comments. You can post what you want, it doesn't mean I have to like it though.

[Lizra]

No, that's not all I've done...that's all you've done... Hector....you can't take a bite out of my leg....your head is too far up you ass.

[Nurvingiel]

Originally Posted by sisterandcousinandaunt

tolkienfan can't help that the people responsible for his/her education have chosen to keep science a secret.

There will be more and more of that, as time goes on.

I'm not having a go at Tolkienfan, or his/her parents. It's the textbook, and any relevant board of education that chose that that I'm having a go at.

Just to be clear. I think that's what you meant too.

Gaffer, it's Klondike, not Klondyke. </Canadian geek>

I agree about the wind turbines, we should continue to study and experiment with ways to make them more efficient. And I love the term "McArses".

Hector, cow farts are hardly the biggest contributor to global warming, why do you keep bringing it up?

EDIT:

Also Hector, you allege in post #4 that the UN is perpetrating misconcseptions about global warming, with this quote:
"Even the UN is the one perpetrating the misconceptions about it."

What are these misconceptions?

[hectorberlioz]

Originally Posted by The Gaffer

What was interesting about the recent IPCC report was the strength of the language they used. The IPCC is a sober, scientific body. Their use of the phrase "the debate is over" is highly significant, particularly as it was endorsed unanimously.

Hector, let me tell you what an overview is: a summary of all the available evidence. You might prefer to dig around individual studies, looking for one measurement that backs up your ideas, but science works on the basis of the body of evidence. The IPCC has produced three reports previously, each one updated with more studies. Their statements about global warming and the human impact on climate change have become stronger and stronger over time as more evidence has been added.

I didn't write them off, I think they are very expert. But not all of them are in agreement about global warming.

I know what an overview is, and if Sen. James Inhofe isn't lying, this overview covers only a slim amount of subjects, which as expected, are the ones people know from Al Gore. Thats what I've heard.

The full report comes out in April or May, we can look at it more in full then I guess.

[Nurvingiel]

Cross-post. Please see my edit.

Don't duck me now.

[hectorberlioz]

Originally Posted by Nurvingiel

Hector, cow farts are hardly the biggest contributor to global warming, why do you keep bringing it up?

I initially brought it up for discussion...I never did look up a link for a source, but Earniel explained some about it, so I didn't think I had to.

Otherwise, just jokes.

Also Hector, you allege in post #4 that the UN is perpetrating misconcseptions about global warming, with this quote:
"Even the UN is the one perpetrating the misconceptions about it."

What are these misconceptions?

By trying to exclude an explanation of the Medieval Warming Period from their report[s].

Originally Posted by hectorberlioz

I don't want a religious debate on global warming, what I'm after is debate in the line of discussing the impact of CO2s, Methane Cows, Global Warming in previous times etc...