What is the silmarillion?

[Elemmírë]

Hey, can someone tell me what exactly is in HoME 12? It's the only one I haven't been able to find in a library...

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

The Peoples of Middle-earth.

[Maerbenn]

Originally Posted by Elemmire

Hey, can someone tell me what exactly is in HoME 12? It's the only one I haven't been able to find in a library...

How about a scan of the Table of Contents?

http://lookinside2-images.amazon.com...5BaBsYontz5r7i
http://lookinside2-images.amazon.com...SKWN5IXQRvuYMB

[Lenya]

Originally Posted by me9996

Thanks for telling me, but now I have it so you can stop telling me!

d'you mean you got Silm? If so, that's great! It's by far the best book Tolkein has ever written

[Elemmírë]

Originally Posted by Telcontar_Dunedain

The Peoples of Middle-earth.

ha ha ha. Show off.

Thank you, Maerbenn. You're more helpful than this clown.

I concur, Lenya.

[Rían]

HoME12 (PoME) is fabulous! Worth getting for the Shibboleth of Fëanor alone!

[Elemmírë]

The Shibboleth. That's what I want.

I'll have my friend order it as soon as possible (I'm beginning to amass a collection... just bought the Letters... )

So, RÃ*an, I've heard a bit about the Shibboleth. What exactly is it?

[ItalianLegolas]

It sounds like another language or something, Shibboleth??

[Elemmírë]

I looked it up after I found out about it, it's Hebrew and means: "A word or pronunciation that distinguishes people of one group or class from those of another."

Oh, RÃ*an...

[ItalianLegolas]

me don't get it

[Last Child of Ungoliant]

i thought it sounded Yiddish, and i was right.

[Rían]

Fascinating word - "Shibboleth" is actually a Hebrew word, apparently meaning "stream" (of water) - I just asked Rad about it and am waiting to hear back (I just heard from him - he said it means "ear", like ear of grain! So much for my dictionary! ). But the larger meaning, and the meaning of the word in "The Shibboleth of Fëanor", is a test word to tell what region a person is from, depending upon how they pronounce it.

In the story in the Bible, the men of Gilead were fighting the men of Ephraim, and the Gileadites captured the fords of the Jordan river opposite Ephraim. And when the fugitives from Ephraim tried to cross the river to escape, the Gileadites would ask them if they were from Ephraim. If they said, "No," then they were asked to say, "Shibboleth". If they were really from Ephraim (and they were lying about it), they would say "Sibboleth", because they couldn't pronounce the "sh" sound correctly, and they would get killed! Totally Monty-Python-esq! So a "shibboleth" is a test word or a password, or even a phrase, custom, etc. distinctive of a particular class, group, etc.

So the Shibboleth of Fëanor is about the "s" vs. the "thorn" sound of the "s" (the Þ sound, which is kind of a soft "th"). MÃ*riel, Fëanor's mother, preferred the Þ sound and stuck to it, even when the Noldor switched to the s sound. Indis, Finwë's second wife, switched to the s sound in loyalty to Finwë, even though her people used the Þ sound, and Fëanor took this (wrongly) as a slight to MÃ*riel. Anyway, a fascinating discussion of language and people!

See, El, I wasn't pullin' your leg! It just took me a while to type this in!

[ItalianLegolas]

i didn't understand any of that. but thats okay

[Rían]

Just read it again, Italianlegolas. It looks like you're from the US. It's like if you went to Germany and they asked you to say "Ich", you would have trouble with the German "ch" sound (made in the back of the throat), which is a non-American-English sound. They could tell you were not a German by having you try to say only one word - "ich". So that would be a Shibboleth.

[Elemmírë]

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

Fascinating word - "Shibboleth" is actually a Hebrew word, apparently meaning "stream" (of water) - I just asked Rad about it and am waiting to hear back (I just heard from him - he said it means "ear", like ear of grain! So much for my dictionary! ). But the larger meaning, and the meaning of the word in "The Shibboleth of Fëanor", is a test word to tell what region a person is from, depending upon how they pronounce it.

In the story in the Bible, the men of Gilead were fighting the men of Ephraim, and the Gileadites captured the fords of the Jordan river opposite Ephraim. And when the fugitives from Ephraim tried to cross the river to escape, the Gileadites would ask them if they were from Ephraim. If they said, "No," then they were asked to say, "Shibboleth". If they were really from Ephraim (and they were lying about it), they would say "Sibboleth", because they couldn't pronounce the "sh" sound correctly, and they would get killed! Totally Monty-Python-esq! So a "shibboleth" is a test word or a password, or even a phrase, custom, etc. distinctive of a particular class, group, etc.

So the Shibboleth of Fëanor is about the "s" vs. the "thorn" sound of the "s" (the Þ sound, which is kind of a soft "th"). MÃ*riel, Fëanor's mother, preferred the Þ sound and stuck to it, even when the Noldor switched to the s sound. Indis, Finwë's second wife, switched to the s sound in loyalty to Finwë, even though her people used the Þ sound, and Fëanor took this (wrongly) as a slight to MÃ*riel. Anyway, a fascinating discussion of language and people!

See, El, I wasn't pullin' your leg! It just took me a while to type this in!

Fascinating. And you're right, that did sound kind of Monty Python-esque!

So, the Shibboleth is about language, then? *getting more interested by the minute* I'm assuming it's written in essay format (opposed to, say, something character driven like the Athrabeth). I heard, but I'm not sure, that somewhere in the PoME (most likely the Shibboleth) were more character descriptions... such as those of the Fëanorions...)

And poor Indis. That really was a mess, wasn't it?

[Valandil]

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

In the story in the Bible, the men of Gilead were fighting the men of Ephraim, and the Gileadites captured the fords of the Jordan river opposite Ephraim. And when the fugitives from Ephraim tried to cross the river to escape, the Gileadites would ask them if they were from Ephraim. If they said, "No," then they were asked to say, "Shibboleth". If they were really from Ephraim (and they were lying about it), they would say "Sibboleth", because they couldn't pronounce the "sh" sound correctly, and they would get killed!..

Yes - some interesting Bible trivia. In fact, they wiped them out so badly, there were just a few hundred of their men left - and then they regretted practically annihilating one of their own tribes! Now, they had all sworn not to give their daughters to be one of their wives, but they finally figured out that to get wives for them, they could... well, maybe you should just read it - along toward the very end of the Book of Judges.

Rian - I didn't check yet, but WAS it the Ephraimites? I was thinking the Benjamites... but I COULD be wrong.

[ItalianLegolas]

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

Just read it again, Italianlegolas. It looks like you're from the US. It's like if you went to Germany and they asked you to say "Ich", you would have trouble with the German "ch" sound (made in the back of the throat), which is a non-American-English sound. They could tell you were not a German by having you try to say only one word - "ich". So that would be a Shibboleth.

oh I get it now, but I can say "Ich" as in "Ich Will"

[Rían]

Italian - That's good that you can, but a lot of people can't manage the gutteral "ch" sound. But I think you get the idea.

I took German for 2 years with a teacher that took a lot of pains with our accent. Also, I'm good at math and music, and those things tend to go with language. So my crowning glory moment in languages was when I was in Switzerland, and I greeted a storekeeper in German, and she thought I was German!! *beams with pride*

Val - yes, it's the Ephs. - got my trusty NASB right here *pats her trusty Bible* Doesn't that remind you of the Monty Python bridge scene a little?

El - it is SUCH a cool story - one of my two favorites in the HoME books (the other being the Athrabeth). It's about language, but it's in the format of someone explaining how the language changed and its effects on the people, esp. the family of Finwë, and has lots of fascinating little tidbits, like how Fëanor "accidentally" killed his youngest son! . It has lots of info on names, and how names in Quenya were converted to Sindarin, and lots of other linguistic info put into fascinating little character sketches.

[Rían]

Originally Posted by Valandil

Now, they had all sworn not to give their daughters to be one of their wives, but they finally figured out that to get wives for them, they could... well, maybe you should just read it - along toward the very end of the Book of Judges.

The dangers of dancing!

THAT was the Bens, the other was the Ephs.

[Elemmírë]

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

Also, I'm good at math and music, and those things tend to go with language.

Hey, I never thought of that... Hm, I guess it's true with me too...

El - it is SUCH a cool story - one of my two favorites in the HoME books (the other being the Athrabeth). It's about language, but it's in the format of someone explaining how the language changed and its effects on the people, esp. the family of Finwë, and has lots of fascinating little tidbits, like how Fëanor "accidentally" killed his youngest son! . It has lots of info on names, and how names in Quenya were converted to Sindarin, and lots of other linguistic info put into fascinating little character sketches.

That's it. I'm getting it as soon as possible.

The Athrabeth is certainly my favourite. So far, at least.