The Lord of the Rings discussion project

[Serenoli]

Poor BB! Every thread I go to, you're fighting another battle!

I think a huge fuss is being made over nothing very important... and it seems the main reason azalea wanted us not to introduce too many outside stuff was so that newbies wouldn't get scared... but there are so few ppl here that this seems kinda pointless! It seems silly to open up a whole new thread just for this... what would we call it? The Power of Vows? I don't see why we can't just do it here, and then go on to discussing the rest of the chapter... its not hurting anyone as far as I can see.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

I think Serenoli posted, but the new page bug makes it unviewable, but you should see it now. ^^

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Eärniel

As a wise Ent-wife I want to cultivate a race of mooters in my gardens that take the initiative to take the discussion to the proper thread instead of waiting for the mod-team to sort out the entangled greens.
(At which I'll probably get the reply: No wonder you Ent-wives were exterminated... )

Not exactly, Earniel.

I would say : "No wonder your gardens are now called the Brown Lands" I still favour the scissors.

[Valandil]

Originally Posted by Butterbeer

ok ...fine but what percentage of this whole thread is not specifically on the main 2 chapters here?

2% ...3%?? possibly a max of 4%??

so ..in this very chapter we learn of the whole oath breaking scenes ...yet we cannot discuss it????

the power of vows is a central Part of the whole chapter!!!!! else there would be no dead or passing of the grey company!

yours very confused,

BB

BB - as I said before, it was mentions of the Ban on the Men of Numenor and of Angmar (neither of which seems to pertain to what's in this chapter} that I was cautioning about - not the oath breaking. You've made WAY too big a deal of this, so stop all this now and keep the discussions to the chapters.

Originally Posted by Serenoli

It seems silly to open up a whole new thread just for this... what would we call it? The Power of Vows? I don't see why we can't just do it here, and then go on to discussing the rest of the chapter... its not hurting anyone as far as I can see.

Not silly - and I think it's been done. Would you like to try searching key terms, or should one of us mods find it and bump it for you?

[Butterbeer]

Originally Posted by Valandil

BB - as I said before, it was mentions of the Ban on the Men of Numenor and of Angmar (neither of which seems to pertain to what's in this chapter} that I was cautioning about - not the oath breaking. You've made WAY too big a deal of this, so stop all this now and keep the discussions to the chapters.

Well, Val, firstly that qoute there was in response to earniel's post (below: edited for emphasis)

While I certainly think we should be able to take elements outside the LoTR books into account in this discussion, they should not be the center of the thread


On a more personal note I've found it very enjoyable that the seperate chapter-discussions allow to focus on details from the chapters that would otherwise have gone unnoticed between the bigger themes and events of Tolkien's whole scope, such as the drowning of Numenor and the power of vows.

thus my reply was ( as i am not sure from what Earniel said in her post, if she had read the whole thread ..i think not from what she implied...? ) thus my reply was that actually, yes the VAST majority of the thread is completely on topic.

Am i not allowed now to even respond to a post?

But the thing that confused me Val, to be fair, is that Earniel appears to be banning us from now discussing ..."

the power of vows"

Now, please understand i am trying to be a good mooter here and do things as they should..

but i really am genuinely confused what we can and cannot talk about - it is frankly impossible to only discuss things that are actually in the chapter, in the course of discussing things that are actually in the chapter ...

eg: the oath breaking and the curse of isildur ... massive KEY point in this whole chapter ... else we have not this chapter at all .... where else can we discuss what happens here in this chapter, look for relevance and clues to what we think about this stuff in this chapter, without comparing it to other things????????

Now as i said before i'll give you the marrow (Angmar) ... i understand that .... you know me i do waffle a bit and go off at the odd tangent ... and like the odd joke about marrows .... but as i said that's fine i understand ..no more marrows or angmar without a naturally occuring reason etc ... (if i were you .. i'd tighten me up on that promise ... ahem i digress - it could be argued marrows are naturally occuring anyway!)

but the oath breaking is to my mind ,at least, discussing THIS CHAPTER ... it is a tiny foray away and we'll be coming back to the next question (if allowed - or at this point even, given any encouragment- to continue - i just find this whole thing very off putting and i just know without clarification there is NO way i for one can ever discuss in the project again because my mind works like that ... sticking religiously to the printed words of a chapter would be impossible for me)


perhaps you can define for me an example we CAN take to look at isildur's curse and the exact things we may discuss it with that are OK?

you see, this is about the whole book if i am correct, and partly to a lessar degree (but you cannot seperate them totally in this context surely??) the whole world that JRRT has created and unless i am wrong the appendixes too, which i used in my discussion here (not the Silm) .... now i totally understand we want the main discussion to be relevant to each chapter but on 2 major counts i argue we are: firstly the vast majority had been speciifcally chapter related, and second it is only in discussing something from this chapter (therefore to me in essence and the spirit of the thing, is thus relevant anyway) that we have taken brief forays over other ground)


now if i had to start a new thread for every minor point you would have five or six a day that would all be closed down because we would move on in those threads to other points quite naturally as you do in discussion and anyway then we would keep having to refer the people here over there and back to keep up with the discussion ...

e.g. go to sub thread 78 page 2 for my reference to that ... sorry you'll have to take that only 89% relevant point of this chapter into this thread or that thread that specifically deals with it ... oh it's been shut down? ... because evryone was arguing that thread 77 was more relevant or that we were duplicating???



but i agree with serenoli cautioning this thread and stating all discussion MUST BE contained within the strict limits of this chapter is not nessescary nor helpful or encouraging ..it is JUST IMPOSSIBLE

If i now go to all the other LOTR discussion threads ... i have no doubt i will find this rule breached so many times it would be a farce!

why then are we here victimised?

If it is only the marrow and the oath, then why keep saying all discussion must be related to this chapter only and then cautioning us???

The marrow i said from day one .ok i agree! The oath is relevant to the curse and the whole existence of this chapter .. but you cannot allow us to discuss this chapter without only mentioning thingsthat are actually IN this chapter?

Seriously, Val .. i am genuinely confused: how is that possible??

Very best to you BB

P.S oh yes, i took your advice Val (thanks) and pm'd azalea - she said yesterday she'd have a look at it when she had a mo - in terms of what is and is not in the spirit of the project.

[Butterbeer]

by the way ... to put this in perspective go look at the tom bombadil chapter (lotr discussion thread) ... by Rian .. one of the largest and most interesting and well viewed ... etc

all completely against the restricitve and incomprehensible rules being enforced here

where is the consistency in this?

we even have Valandil in there talking of Angmar !! (although sadly, no mentions of marrows! )

how many threads would have been spawned in THAT chapter discussion ... and who would have bothered with it if that was the case?

best BB

ps i wish you guys and girls would sort this out .. i am eager to get on with the discussion ..but i just know all my points and questions i wish to bring up regarding this chapter will now hit trouble, because it will be impossible to discuss them

*sigh*

[Serenoli]

Maybe we should shift this whole discussion on 'What to discuss and what not to' into a new thread cos its not relevant to the chapter!

seriously mods, give us a break... its been ages since there has been any kind of participation in the discussion thread, and now that we finally stirred ourselves up and came here, you start getting all dutiful and waving the rule-book around! BB is right, if the new law passes through then we will have little to say... everytime we make a comment, we will worry about the censor board...

[Valandil]

I will soon be splitting all this disputing off and likely closing it.

I would do so now except that apparently azalea will be coming to check on things herself soon enough.

As a moderator, it is my job to keep things on track. For me to post a comment like I did is entirely appropriate. And regardless of who said what that was being responded to, once a moderator has tried to redirect - to protract things in this manner is totally unacceptable. Look what a mess has been made of this thread!

So for now, I want this sidetrack discussion to END!

[azalea]

I have been contacted regarding this issue and replied via pm, but I wanted to bring some closure here since it was discussed in open forum. I support Valandil's comments, in that although mention of tidbits from the greater mythology is not forbidden, conversation in the thread should pertain only to the text in that chapter, not to stories and info contained in other works.

Here is part of my reply to the pm I received:

"The reasons for this do include the fact that I wanted the discussions to be accessable to everyone who has read or is reading Lotr, regardless of their knowledge of the greater mythology. My vision was that people who are reading Lotr for the first time could come and participate in each of these project threads, as well as people who had read them multiple times, and that the threads would not only be active for the duration of the project, but for the future as well, hence the subforum. That is why I wished also that we not discuss stuff from the appendices YET, that we instead wait for discussion of that info when the thread for those is posted.

Another reason for the narrow focus of these particular threads is that I wanted us to look at Lotr as a stand-alone work, as the readers did when it was first published. Furthermore, at the time this was started (and perhaps even now), the books forum was somewhat inactive, with mainly the trivia/ game threads being active. We were trying to find ways to start new and fresh discussions, and I felt that keeping the focus narrow in the project threads would accomplish this naturally. By discussing the chapters in depth, people would naturally come up with questions and ideas for discussion [beyond the scope of the chapter, and thus create new threads or revive existing ones to the end that there would be renewed widespread meaningful discussion in the forum]..."

That is the gist of my reasoning behind that decision. By all means, make a new thread! Hope this has helped to clear up the matter, and again, I apologise for not being around lately.

By the way, is there a reason that one thread is stuck at the top of the subforum? Just curious.

[Valandil]

Originally Posted by azalea

By the way, is there a reason that one thread is stuck at the top of the subforum? Just curious.

Probably a mistake. I just unstuck it.

BTW - for those wanting to talk about the Oath-breakers - I bumped a thread in the ME forum - named "The Power of a Curse" - check it out!

[brownjenkins]

try to figure where we are at... mine is tentatively due on the 22nd, but i can't seem to find the chapters right before mine (The Ride of the Rohirrim and The Battle of Pelennor Fields)... have they been posted yet?

[Earniel]

Originally Posted by Gordis

Not exactly, Earniel.

I would say : "No wonder your gardens are now called the Brown Lands" I still favour the scissors.

I'll have you know that my gardens were famous once, and that the destruction came from the outside, not from within.

Originally Posted by brownjenkins

try to figure where we are at... mine is tentatively due on the 22nd, but i can't seem to find the chapters right before mine (The Ride of the Rohirrim and The Battle of Pelennor Fields)... have they been posted yet?

Hm, I really should keep a better eye on the discussion project. Lazy me...

Last two chapters got posted a bit late so all the coming chapters will probably get delayed a little too, to give each chapter enough time to be discussed. I think you can expect to move your chapter to maybe January? I'll leave the decision on that to Valandil or Azalea.

I haven't seen the Ride of the Rohirrim and The Battle of Pelennor Fields yet, and neither have I seen Falagar for a while. The Siege of Gondor is still stuck to the top. I'll PM Falagar but if he doesn't show, I'll reckon we'll have to re-assign it.

[brownjenkins]

thanks!

i'm certainly not going to complain about being given more time

[azalea]

Val, did you pm Falagar, and if so, did he reply?

[Earniel]

I did and no, he hasn't replied yet.

[Earniel]

I've got news from Falagar. He still likes to do it, but it could take a few days. This friday at the earliest.

[Valandil]

Sorry - I missed azalea's question when she first asked it.

I have been in touch with Falagar. He does want to do the chapters, but has had a hard time getting it done yet (as Earniel indicated).

[Earniel]

So Falagaaaaar, any luck so far?

[Valandil]

A few days ago I connected with Falagar again - and he didn't think he would be able to do it at all.

So - rather than have further delay, I've gone ahead and posted the chapter intros.

Great Big FYI - after this one is brownjenkins, and I know that he has been ready. However - there may be a good opportunity available for someone else who would like to contribute, because the next couple after him are Crickhollow and Cassiopeia - I know Crick hasn't been around in a long while. Cass may be planning on doing hers, but I haven't been in touch to verify, and I'm not certain how often she has been on.

So... stay tuned. You can let me know by PM if you're interested in those (or other) upcoming assignments - until I go ahead and make further public statements about their availability, at which time you can just express interest right here.

[Valandil]

Oh - and in my new update to the schedule, I went with a 3-week spacing of assignments. This is going slow anyway, so maybe that will help everyone have time to participate.