The argument of Ungoliant

[Wayfarer]

Who says she would need to /stop/ the arrows?

You need to think this through. Melkor, in his physical incarnation of Morgoth, was compared to a mountain. He was huge. He was enormous. And he was powerful. Physically, the only being who had ever matched him at this point was Tulkas, the Vala who's dominion was in strength of body.

Now, knowing all that, consider this- Ungoliant is big enough to scare him. She had just devoured the two trees, and the hoard of the greatest jewelsmiths of all time. Even if the valar had been able to find her, their weapons would have had little chance of piercing her hide, let alone striking deep enough to damage any vital organs. All of them together might have had a chance, but it would have been iffy.

[Lord Manafirogh]

lets put it in other words. we were arguing (me and a mate) weather ungoliant could come into a stronghold say in dorthonion where the sons of Finarfin dwelled and destroye the village with a few other creatures with her spiders etcs. Now say the elves had at least 1000 archers and spear men etc because you would know they have since its a strong hold. Could they kill ungolian with arrows and Spears?
I dont think Ungoliant was that strong that she could take on Valar. you exagerating too much. Tulkas with orome could beat her.

[Lord Manafirogh]

Does any one know for sure i big Ungoliant is? I always got the image she was around 2 metres tall because wen she sucked the trees i got the feeling she could only reach down the trunks but then again those trees were big. Roughly i got the picture of her in my head as about a size of a room. (not a huge room)
Id say she was around 2m tall and 3m long. Then after she sucked the trees i think she probably got bigger but i dout she got twice as big as that. I think when they desciribe moroght as a tower its more of a metaphor. Any one know how big she is?

[Thorin II]

Originally posted by Wayfarer
Melkor, in his physical incarnation of Morgoth, was compared to a mountain.

I think this was meant metaphorically; it wouldn't make a lot of sense for him to be that kind of huge. If nothing else, a sword-fight with Fingolfin would be kinda ridiculous.

That said, I agree with your point. If Ungoliant could scare Morgoth, I don't think any number arrows would take her down.

[Lord Manafirogh]

That said, I agree with your point. If Ungoliant could scare Morgoth, I don't think any number arrows would take her down

Thats silly, who says morgoth could lose his body by being hit by many arrows? she might have scared morgoth but that doesn't mean anything. who knows maybe morgoth was scared of sypiders no matter what their size was. I dont see how she could possible not die from being hit by a thousand arrows, bleeding to death. shes a living thing, she can die.
Another thing did she stay big even after she drunk from the trees? i mean even after years she stayed big? I dout she got that big anyway. i got a picture of morgoth and ungoliant be the tress and they dong look that big to me. they reach up to tree trunks, about 2-3 metres tall i'd say. morgoth himself was about twice has big as fingolfin.

[Turgon_Turambar]

thats bull**** . it says morgoth was like a bloomin tower. He casted a shadow over Fingolfin which means he was more than twice the size. The pic youve got is lame or just that artists impression of them.

Who said the 2 trees werent the size of redwoods????

[Lord Manafirogh]

I know for a fact moroght couldn't have been biger then those trees. and ungoliant. he was roughly max 3 times taller then fingolfin. wen he tolkien says like a tower its a metaphor/simile or have u never heard of those? he cant have been that big. when beren went to take the silmaril he just reached up and took the silmarils from the crow. he was big but not massive. a tower is tooo big.

[Falagar]

Originally posted by Turgon_Turambar
thats bull**** . it says morgoth was like a bloomin tower. He casted a shadow over Fingolfin which means he was more than twice the size. The pic youve got is lame or just that artists impression of them.

Who said the 2 trees werent the size of redwoods????

And wether or not his shadow is cast upon Fingolfin depends on where the sun is, not how big you are (though of course you have to be bigger than the person.

[Turgon_Turambar]

Beren didnt jus reach up
morgoth was sittin in a chair beren climbed up and got it.

[Falagar]

Originally posted by Turgon_Turambar
Beren didnt jus reach up
morgoth was sittin in a chair beren climbed up and got it.

Knowing Morgoth, it was probably a really big throne.

[Lord Manafirogh]

If morgoth could be woken up by the little piece of broken knife then 1000 arrows would destroy his body. too many wholes in him.

[Lord Manafirogh]

even that little broken knife hurt him, let alone 1000 arrows going at him. i ment holes not

[Wayfarer]

I dont see how she could possible not die from being hit by a thousand arrows

The same way you could not die after being hit by 1000 rubber bands or bb-shots. If one of them isn't enough to pierce your skin, then it doesn't matter how many you get hit with, now does it?

And in relation to Morgoth's size- /Even/ if we limit it to three times the height of Fingolfin, then that's at least 21 feet tall. Probably closer to 25. And he could have easily been larger.

That makes ungoliant at this point in the 30-foot range. Large enough to take out a good-sized army.

[Thorin II]

Originally posted by Wayfarer
And in relation to Morgoth's size- /Even/ if we limit it to three times the height of Fingolfin, then that's at least 21 feet tall. Probably closer to 25. And he could have easily been larger.

That makes ungoliant at this point in the 30-foot range. Large enough to take out a good-sized army.

This seems more reasonable to me. Normal armies (ie, none of the great heroes present) wouldn't stand a chance against Ungoliant.

[Lord Manafirogh]

I want evidence? where does it say ungoliant cant be pierced by arrows show me!! stop making things up i want facts. overgrown spider that all she is. wot so great about her? wot has she done? nothing but drink from trees and eat herself.

[Wayfarer]

Hello? *knocks on Manafirogh's head* It doesn't need to say that- we're deducting based on reasonable assumptions.

If Ungoliant was a 30-foot high spider, then no number of arrows could possibly kill her. They would never be able to pierce deep enough through her thick hide to hit something vital.

[Lord Manafirogh]

i ment where does it say shes 30 foot????????!!!

[Wayfarer]

Reasonable assumptions, remember? We take Morgoth's size in relation to an elf, then a size for Ungoliant that would be enough to pose a real danger to him.

But that is neither here nor there. Even if Ungoliant was significantly smaller, arrows would not have been able to pierce deep enough to cause a lethal wound.

[Lord Manafirogh]

she would simply bleed to death. morgoth could be hurt by arrows most probably and unless i see evidence im convienced 1000 arrows would kill her.

[Wayfarer]

You don't seem to understand the dynamics of the situation. To a creature 20-30 feet tall, a thousand arrows would be like a thousand pinpricks. They would hurt, yes, but there wouldn't be enough bleeding to cause any appreciable weakness, let alone death.