Your thoughts on ism's

[afro-elf]

To Guillaume le Maréchal :

The only people who have to say they aren't afraid are those who are scared out of their minds.

Surely, this is an over-reaching statemnet. I am NOT afraid of :

Putting on my shoes for example.

Does this mean that I am scared out of my mind to do so?

Could you please qualify your statement.


As it applies to Feynmann's quote you ARE in error as it applies to me.

being lost in a mysterious universe without having any purpose, which is the way it really is so far as I can tell. It doesn't frighten me.

Does this mean that I am without fear of anything?

Most certiantly not. There are many things that I fear.


Your quote can apply in some cases in which I am in complete accordance with your statement. However, in the matter I have listed above ( Feynmann's quote) I 'believe' that you have expanded your statement beyond its bounderies to encompass an area in which it does not apply.


If possible can you give me a rebuttal to my reponse SOLEY as it applies to Feynmann's quote.


Thank you.


AE


PS I just browsed Castle Duncan. Your site Rocks.

[Valandil]

Originally posted by Guillaume le Maréchal
Really? That's called the sin of presumption.

edit: ...and I still stand by my statement.

Interesting... maybe it's another Catholic-Protestant thing, but I believe we can have assurance of our heavenly salvation. In my view, it's not a 'sin of presumption' - because it is not based on me, ie, my ability to 'measure up'. It's based on the promises in the Word of God. So my assurance is simply an act of faith that God will do as He says.

Is that considered a sin of presumption?

[afro-elf]

The only people who have to say they aren't afraid are those who are scared out of their minds.

I could say I have scared out of my mind.

[Guillaume le Maréchal]

Val,

The sin of presumption is believing that you are assured of heaven: "When I die I'm going to heaven, because I believe in God." That's not necessarily true. For example, Saint Francis of Assisi still needed to be consoled at the time of his death because he was convinced that he had not done enough during his life to be rewarded eternal life. He was frightened of his shortcomings and was man enough to admit it.

The other side of the coin would be the sin of despair: “I’m damned, no matter what.� (There’s other forms of this, for example, refusing to see anything good in the world or in others, etc.)

The virtuous middle I would say is: “I’m confident in God’s power to save me, but I’m entirely unconfident in my ability to co-operate.�

Ru,

Atheists don’t have the sin of presumption? Now that’s a matter of perspective, isn’t it?

Afro-elf,

My statement is merely an observation that you can take or leave; I just throw it out there for the heck of it. People who feel a need to state they are unafraid about any specific thing, are scared. Who are they trying to convince? I fail to see how such statements benefit anyone but the speaker.

Without fear there is no courage. I think people who stand in awe of the world around them, who respect the forces of nature enough to realize they are insignificant and small in the sight of a vast universe, are the one’s with the courage to delve its depths. Don’t get me wrong with what I’m about to write: I don’t think for a moment that Feynmann is truly unafraid of this reality... he’s just coping for his own personal inadequacies with false bravado. However, his statement that he possesses no fear inclines me to ignore everything he has to say about the universe... without that fear he lacks the courage to make an impression.

Thanks for the compliment about CD.

--Dave

[afro-elf]

With this statement

I don’t think for a moment that Feynmann is truly unafraid of this reality... he’s just coping for his own personal inadequacies with false bravado.

I think we may just have a different perception of what that quote means. I in no way whatsoever, percieve the statement to mean that he without fear of the physical world. That he would not be awed or fearful of a Tornado for example.

I think that the gist of what he is saying that many people believe in preternatural things to give then some sense of assurance. I think he is saying that they are the ones who are truly scared because the universe is no respecter of persons and some can not accept that.


I do not think is saying that there is nothing in this reality that he is unfraid of. He is saying that not having answers does not frighten him.

I think people who stand in awe of the world around them, who respect the forces of nature enough to realize they are insignificant and small in the sight of a vast universe, are the one’s with the courage to delve its depths.

Awe and and respect may possese a different connation than fear.

IMO It was Feynmann's awe and respect and his knowledge that we are insignificant in the vast universe that allowed him to when a noble prize.


If he lived in fear of the universe he would not have explored it. It would have stifled him.


It is intellectual curiosity and a great cognitive urge that grants one the courage to delve into the depths of the universe fear.

If one is afraid how can one seek, grow, learn, or question.

"fear is the mind killer"



However, the above statements are not in the same category as physical fear.


If some said they are unafraid of being battle, or storms upon the sea, or being caught in an avalanche.

I guess for me there is a difference between courage of thought and courage of flesh.


I, as Feynmann, am not afraid of not having an answer to everything.
I don't need to believe in supernatural beings to make be feel safe and secure about my place in the world.


. I am awed, by biology, computer science and engineering. I am not fearful of them.

I am not afraid to ask questions about my existance, purpose etc... if were scared i would not ask.


Which is different than saying I do not have fear of things that exist in reality. Guns, natural disasters, disease, heartbreak, financial security are things that probaly weigh heavy on most peoples minds.

I do not think that he meant he was without fear of these "things"

However, that category of fear IMO is not the same as intellectual fear.

Nor do I see intellectual courage the same as "physical" courage.

[afro-elf]

Or to be succint. There are some things I fear and some things I do not. Not having all the answers and living in a universe without higher powers watching over me does not.

[Guillaume le Maréchal]

"if were scared i would not ask."

I disagree with this. Theology, the questioning of the sacred, stands in opposition to this and it has a very long tradition.

I really hate the statement "fear is a mind killer." I'm no Jedi Knight, thats for sure. And I doubt if human beings ever can be. George Lucas failed to realize that fear is a good thing... it lets us know we are in danger. Its how you use fear that is important, I guess.

[afro-elf]

I disagree with this. Theology, the questioning of the sacred, stands in opposition to this and it has a very long tradition

I PERSONALLY would not call it the question OF the sacred.

But, I do agree with the gist of was your response is. My statement was vague so should have clarified.

I really hate the statement "fear is a mind killer." I'm no Jedi Knight, thats for sure. And I doubt if human beings ever can be. George Lucas failed to realize that fear is a good thing... it lets us know we are in danger

I think I know the section in Star Wars you are speaking of;
however, my quote is from the Dune series by Frank Herbert. ( the books are great the other stuff ...)

It is called the Litany Against Fear


LITANY AGAINST FEAR
I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear.
I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing.
Only I will remain.

Yes, agree that fear in necessary at at times.

I gotta get some sleep.. Its almost 3 am in Tokyo and I have to be at school by 8:20. Thanks for the the talk.

Ciao.

[Guillaume le Maréchal]

Oh yeah!

I get my sci-fi confused. I've only read the first book of Herbert's Dune triology, and that was a long time ago... however, I did see the two mini-series presentations on the sci-fi channel.

[Rían]

Originally posted by Insidious Rex
some other related quotes for you (which I know Rian will assail me on ):

*hee hee* - just saw this

Nah, I won't assail you today - I'll send you a giant kiss instead!

*wafts a kiss to IRex*

[Rían]

Originally posted by Ruinel
You have my permission to believe anything you want about me, or Feynman for that matter. It bothers me not.

OH so tempting .... OH so tempting .... OH so tempting!!!!

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Guillaume le Maréchal
Oh yeah!

I get my sci-fi confused. I've only read the first book of Herbert's Dune triology, and that was a long time ago... however, I did see the two mini-series presentations on the sci-fi channel.

I was just going to say... that's from Dune.
And btw... the "fear" is irrational fear. Fear of things unknown, that you can't control.

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by RÃ*an
OH so tempting .... OH so tempting .... OH so tempting!!!!

O.o
...........freakin' spammer