English spelling reform

[Grey_Wolf]

Not that my question has anything do with the actual subject, but is Aluminium and Aluminum the same thing?

[Earniel]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
I find french - out of all the languages I have studied to be the hardest to pronunce. So many rules - on word connection and all this other stuff. Why don't we have the French reform their language so it's easier to pronounce. Sorry - but French also sounds like a wimp language.

WIMP language? LOL! Do you find it a wimp language because you can't get the pronounciation right? Or just to express your dislike for anything French in general?

To reform a language to make it more easy to pronounce for foreigners is IMO a ludicrous idea. French has different sounds than English, that's true, but to change the pronounciation of a language so that others can learn it easier is far over the top. In that case it would be more advantageous for every one to learn a unified language like esperanto for example (or Westron ).

But in case of spelling and grammar I suppose there's in every language something that could go easier. I had loved it if German didn't have all those nasties like dativ and genetiv for example. And the French COD's and COI's took me liters of sweat. English possible and improbable clauses took me quite some effort as well. In fact, I only have to look at those rediculous Dutch spelling rules for intermediate n's to beg for some simplification. (Yes Lin, those! )

All in all I think spelling is the easiest thing to change to make a language easier. I have always thought of the pronounciation of a language as its soul. You don't go around changing that overmuch.

[Jonathan]

Originally posted by Grey_Wolf
Not that my question has anything do with the actual subject, but is Aluminium and Aluminum the same thing?

Yes, they mean the same thing. In British English it is spelled aluminium, while an American would spell it aluminum

[Grey_Wolf]

Originally posted by Jonathan
Yes, they mean the same thing. In British English it is spelled aluminium, while an American would spell it aluminum

Thanks again. The confusion was mainly caused by my favourite author (Clive Cussler) using both terms for the metal in his books.

[Linaewen]

Originally posted by Shadowfax
I apologise in advance to those of you who think that my comments were insensitive, but I think that languages shouldn't be reformed or changed so that they are easier for foreigners to pronounce or learn. ... If someone wants to learn to speak another language and yet they are not willing to actually try, then they will never learn it or will always think it is stupid or "wimpy" because it is just different from their own!

It's not only the foreigners who find the spelling difficult. Did you read the statistics on that site which I provided a link to? Native English speakers spell poorly because of our spelling inconsistency. That ties in with why I think Sween was right to bring up dyslexia (though not in the sense he intended) - English speaking dyslexics would have a more difficult time trying to read, because phonemes would be harder to recognise, due to our, yes spelling inconsistencies. So a spelling reform, though perhaps difficult, would benefit all. Yes, we may lose some of our 'flavour', but we're not talking about radicalising the entire language- just maybe parts of it. I agree with Eärniel.

Just wanted to make a note that I started this thread to get your opinions on a potential English spelling reform, not as a medium for you to express your views about the inferiority of other languages. Please keep that in mind.

However, JD, I am slightly confused. Why do you persist with French if you so clearly dislike it? Why not focus your energy on learning a language you enjoy, one you do not consider 'wimpy'? Btw: I am geniunely curious; I am not trying to antagonise you

About the aluminium thing- ah! That's cleared that up a bit. I always thought their pronunciation sounded strange to my ears.

[LutraMage]

The English language does not need reform. As someone has already indicated, it is a living language and has reformed constantly over a period of about 1,000 years - and has many roots that go back for a 1,000 years before that.

Change will come when change is needed. Giving some Committee the power to arbitarily change the language is a nonsense (and there would be no other way of carrying out the wholesale reform some are advocating).

Nobody has mentioned the fact that the subtle differences in our spellings reflect subtle differences in our pronounciation. 'Colour' is not pronounced the same way as 'color'. This adds to the poetry and beauty of the language.

Also, who's phonetics are you going to use? People talk about American English being different from British English, but identical words are pronounced differently in Yorkshire from the way they are spoken in Lancashire. Liverpudlians speak entirely differently from Mancunians. Londoners wouldn't recognise half the words used by a resident of Edinburgh - even though they are the same word. Get real - no one 'phonetic' code would be acceptable unless you want to not only dumb down but also strip the beauty and diversity from English dialects. Are you going to spell 'bath' (a) 'barth' to rhyme with 'tarf' or (b) 'bath' to rhyme with 'caff' - it is uniformly pronounced one way in the South of England and the other in the North.

Final thought. My spelling was awful when I was a kid. I didn't winge about how hard the language was, I didn't claim I had dyslexia - I just got on and learnt how to spell. I still make mistakes, but it is my lazyness, not the complexity of the language that is at fault.

Just in case you are in any doubt, I don't think we should change the spelling of English.

[Linaewen]

Originally posted by LutraMage
Also, who's phonetics are you going to use? People talk about American English being different from British English, but identical words are pronounced differently in Yorkshire from the way they are spoken in Lancashire. Liverpudlians speak entirely differently from Mancunians. Londoners wouldn't recognise half the words used by a resident of Edinburgh - even though they are the same word. Get real - no one 'phonetic' code would be acceptable unless you want to not only dumb down but also strip the beauty and diversity from English dialects. Are you going to spell 'bath' (a) 'barth' to rhyme with 'tarf' or (b) 'bath' to rhyme with 'caff' - it is uniformly pronounced one way in the South of England and the other in the North.

Aren't the differences between accents primarily the pronunciation of vowels? In which case, we could probably keep the vowels the same, but change consonantal elements of words, maybe cutting down the number of ways to spell the 'sh' sound (14) and so forth. And if the vowel spellings were changed, it could be the common pronunciations on which it would be based.
Like I said, radicalising the entire system is not a good idea, but I think changing parts of it would be one, IMO.

Change will come when change is needed. Giving some Committee the power to arbitarily change the language is a nonsense (and there would be no other way of carrying out the wholesale reform some are advocating).

And how exactly would that change come into play? And why would having some 'Committee' change the language be any different to the changing of other languages?

[Sween]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
Sween - I still can't stop laughing everytime I read this post.

By the way - you spelt dyslexia wrong.

Just remember it's not whether you can spell or not that's important - it's whether you try your best and whether you can get your ideas across. You get your thoughts across fine - so that's all that's important. There have been many famous people with dyslexia - so it's not a big deal.

glad i provide so much amusement

[congressmn]

reforms? there are other places to start first.

Alcohol laws in the U.S. to begin with.

English is doing fine, i'd say.

[LutraMage]

Originally posted by Linaewen
And how exactly would that change come into play? And why would having some 'Committee' change the language be any different to the changing of other languages?

Er? Lin did you read my first sentence? A living language evolves all the time and doesn't need any thought police to amend it and shape it to their own satisfaction.

[Jonathan]

Originally posted by LutraMage
Er? Lin did you read my first sentence? A living language evolves all the time and doesn't need any thought police to amend it and shape it to their own satisfaction.

Simplifying the spelling should not be compared to the natural evolution of a living language. Because it is the spoken language that evolves the most, and a spelling reform doesn't really 'reshape' a language and interfere with the evolution.

I believe many people think that since they have already learnt how English words are spelled, they don't want the language to change. They think that everyone else should adapt to the more difficult spelling, and they themselves who have a good command of the spelling should not have to adapt to a new, easier way of spelling.
From one point of view, that sounds a little egoistic. I am sure that millions of people around the world would love to have more easily spelled words in the English language, and I am sure that many people with English as their native tongue would want that as well.
Though I agree that in a way it would be sad to simplify the spelling of certain words. Many of the English words have a history, and that history tells us why the words are so strangely spelled.

[LutraMage]

Originally posted by Jonathan
Though I agree that in a way it would be sad to simplify the spelling of certain words. Many of the English words have a history, and that history tells us why the words are so strangely spelled.

Now you're talking!

[azalea]

Originally posted by Jonathan
... an angry, pacifistic foreigner...

Isn't that a bit oxymoronic? Or at least makes for an interesting mental picture!

JD: French a "wimp" language? Is that a linguistic term? :P And I like how you then say feminine so that feminine=wimp! So what would be a "tough, masculine" language? (I'm just giving you a hard time here, JD )

[Jonathan]

Originally posted by azalea
Isn't that a bit oxymoronic? Or at least makes for an interesting mental picture!

Lol, didn't think about that . I meant those angry people who demonstrate against the American involvement in Iraq and Afghanistan.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Eärniel
[B]WIMP language? LOL! Do you find it a wimp language because you can't get the pronounciation right? Or just to express your dislike for anything French in general? /B]

Actually I don't dislike anything french. And it has nothing to do with not getting the pronunciation. With enough work I can get the pronunciation right. The reason why I say that French is a wimp language is becuase it sounds too "flowery". I'm sorry - I have studied french - and to me it does sound wimpy. I can use other names to describe how it sounds - but I'm sure people would be offended. I prefer the way Italian and Spanish sound.

[Earniel]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
Actually I don't dislike anything french.

Could have fooled me.

Originally posted by jerseydevil
The reason why I say that French is a wimp language is becuase it sounds too "flowery".

Flowery... That reminds me, I used to think that of English when I first heard it. I suppose it's all about personal appreciation. I think both French and English have great poetic qualities.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Linaewen
However, JD, I am slightly confused. Why do you persist with French if you so clearly dislike it? Why not focus your energy on learning a language you enjoy, one you do not consider 'wimpy'? Btw: I am geniunely curious; I am not trying to antagonise you

I have come into contact with many Europeans who speak perfect English - but when they want to talk about you - they switch to their native tongue. The French are big into this it seems - as well as Germans I have come into contact with. I had a friend in 6th grade whose mother married a German and they would constantly switch to German if they wanted to say something they didn't want me to hear. The one time they were speakign english - and I walked into the kitchen - mid sentence - they switched to German. I found it to be very rude and I wanted to learn German back then so when they started talking in German - I could answer them.

I also had episodes in college where Japanese students as well as Europeans - would be talking and you walk in and they switch to their native language. Like I said - I find it rude - especially if they are speaking english one minute and switch languages the next. Not all of them do this though of course. In my house - we were NOT allowed to whisper or anything - and to me - people doing that is just like someone whispering. If I weas in Italy and I was talking to someone who understood Italian - I would speak Italian. I would not switch to English - unless there was something I didn't know how to say. But even then - the people around me would know that I only switched because I was trying to figure out how to say something.

But actually the main reason I want to learn foreign languages is to expand my knowledge of other countries. By learning a foreign language - then I can read their websites - including news sites and forums - like LeMonde. I used to read Le Monde online. Reading is much easier than writing or talking.

I also have many books in French - including Harry Potter, Lord of the Rings and The Little Prince. I also have books in Russian and Italian too - but those are currently packed away.

By the way - I am against any language being made easier so people can learn it or pronounce it - particularly for foreign speakers. I don't expect France to make their language easier to pronounce - nor should anyone expect English to change it's language. What really upsets me - is that many people and some people on this board - criticize American spelling and seem to think that British English is superior. There have been many discussions regarding this - with many Americans claiming British English is better. As I said in all those threads - it's not better - it's just different.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Eärniel
Could have fooled me.

Well that's because you only know me on here and not face to face where it is easier to talk in depth on things.

Flowery... That reminds me, I used to think that of English when I first heard it. I suppose it's all about personal appreciation. I think both French and English have great poetic qualities.

German and the slovak languages sound too gutteral. Like I said - I can't compare English because I speak it. I don't know how it sounds to an Italian, Russian, German or Japanese.

Azalea -

JD: French a "wimp" language? Is that a linguistic term? :P And I like how you then say feminine so that feminine=wimp! So what would be a "tough, masculine" language? (I'm just giving you a hard time here, JD )

Wimp was the wrong phrasing - more like flowery as I said in a later post. I don't think that women are wimps by the way.

[HOBBIT]

I was also mostly poking fun when I said that the French should change their langauge... why should anyone? I do dislike the french language though...been taking it for years in school and I've been to Paris - the French people certainly are rude to american tourists. Also went to London in the same trip - much much nicer imo.



Why change english ? Just to help a few lousy spellers? They would still spell words incorrectly. For those of us who have a good handle on the english langauge, it would just throw us off.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

no, no.... i mean i see that from people i know to live in the usa

And what if the people who live in the USA prefer the British variants, like, oh, I don't know....me! Criticise away!