Atheists and Fantasy

[HOBBIT]

question: WHERE DID YOU GET THAT IDEA FROM? seriously though, you are the first person to think that!

i can't imagine what would give you that impression.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by HOBBIT
question: WHERE DID YOU GET THAT IDEA FROM? seriously though, you are the first person to think that!

i can't imagine what would give you that impression.

Chill out Tristan, (you see that sam? His name is Tristan.) there are Hobbit girls you know?

[Rían]

Originally posted by HOBBIT
question: WHERE DID YOU GET THAT IDEA FROM?

It must be your shy, quiet, retiring manner.....

NOT!!!!!

[Artanis]

I agree with HOBBIT, I don't see that a person's belief has anything to do with the ability to enjoy a Fantasy book.

I like both good Sci-Fi and Fantasy books, for various reasons, just like I like 'ordinary' books for various reasons. A good story well told, a story that manage to say something about our world in general, persons that seem 'real' to the reader.

I like Philip K. Dick's definition of the difference between Sci-Fi and Fantasy. He says a story is Sci-Fi if you think it is possible that it could happen in reality, and Fantasy id you think it impossible. It is a definition which gives the reader the power to place the book in what genre you prefer yourself.

[Baby-K]

But my point is that Faith is a major theme in the fantasy genre as a whole; quite often, Faith in a higher being. I have never encountered an atheist who thought highly of belief without proof, especially in a higher being.

Gwaim, I think you should seperate faith from religion. It is absolutely possible to have faith in something without believing that it's the alpha & omega (I have faith in my friends, but that does not mean that I believe they are infallable or perfect and I certainly won't pray to them or build a life for myself based on a story they might have told). When you say 'higher being' do you mean to intimate that it would be the gods of whichever fantasy world you happen to occupy? If so, would it necessarily mean that ALL the characters would have unwaivering faith in that being as the all powerful / all knowing? I've always thought that a major theme for fantasy was the quest for knowledge / truth / freedom from some form of oppression or threat - would that not equate in some way to modern atheism? Just asking.

When religious people read the bible - they believe that there was really a noah or that the world really was created by a god. They really do belief in a mythical place called heaven and hell. I don't - just like I don't believe in many other things I read in fantasy books.

JD - to my knowledge there really was a Noah - his existence can be traced through geneology - whether or not he built an ark & fit 2 of each species of EVERYTHING on earth in it is the fantasy.

[Elvengirl]

I wouldn't call myself an atheist, but I'm not really religious by following the bible, jesus, god, heaven.......etc.
I don't need to believe in god to enjoy a good book. I reads all types of genres and yes, fantasy is my favorite. The reason I love it so much is because of what it is, fantasy. I can pick up a book and be transported to another world of imagination and adventure. I can separate from so called reality and be caught up in a place where reality doesn't exist. But that doesn't mean that I believe it to be true.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Baby-K
JD - to my knowledge there really was a Noah - his existence can be traced through geneology - whether or not he built an ark & fit 2 of each species of EVERYTHING on earth in it is the fantasy.

Whose geneaology? The one given in the bible? There are a lot of Noahs. I think this discussion can become very similar to the "Can you prove there was a JRR Tolkien".

[Earniel]

HOBBIT is a gi-iiirl! Woeha! Neh neh neh!

Okay, serious again....

I don't think that just because atheists do not have faith in gods of various religions, that they are completely without faith what so ever. One faith does not necesarily rule out another.

Everyone believes in one thing or another, everyone has some personal superstitions. Some people say "Break a leg" when a friend has to preform on stage when they most definately don't want to see it happen. I know I girl who is a convinced atheist but there are things she will never do because she thinks it's bad luck. And who has never looked for a four-leafed clover for luck?

Just because you're an atheist doesn't mean you will read Einstein to your kids instead of fairy tales.

[HOBBIT]

Don't make this a hit-and-run topic now Gwaimir. I'm curious to hear Gwaimir Windgem's thoughts on this now. I can see why he might think that, and I understand what he is saying - it just doesn't work - as everyone in this topic has demonstrated....

I'm just curious if Gwaimir Windgem now sees why atheists can enjoy fantasy or what. I've seen the "who's online" and I know he has seen the replies and just chosen not to reply. I wonder why? This topic was started by him. oh well.

Just an observation.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

I was merely going to wait for more answers. I have to get off shortly, but I'll get off some quick replies first.

(I have faith in my friends, but that does not mean that I believe they are infallable or perfect and I certainly won't pray to them or build a life for myself based on a story they might have told)

But you see, by "faith" I don't mean merely trust, but believing without sight, or without "proof"; not just trusting in them, for of course people do that, atheist, Christian, Jewish, Muslim, or belonging to an alternative religion, the full list of which is too long to type out, or even in all likelihood for a single human being to know. Trusting others is not what I mean. I mean faith, believing in that which we cannot see, with our eyes or the eyes of science.

would it necessarily mean that ALL the characters would have unwaivering faith in that being as the all powerful / all knowing?

Of course not; fantasy is based heavily on ancient pagan beliefs. Few deities or powers even are all-powerful, or all-knowing.

I've always thought that a major theme for fantasy was the quest for knowledge / truth / freedom from some form of oppression or threat - would that not equate in some way to modern atheism?

Wow, just a month or two having left Christianity, she already decides we're oppressive threats. Doesn't take long for the dislike to settle in some. Have you then settled upon atheism, or are you still searching?

I don't think that just because atheists do not have faith in gods of various religions, that they are completely without faith what so ever.

By faith, I mean believing in something which you cannot see, with the sight of your eyes, or the sight of scientific method, or great scientists, psychologists, etc. Something which you purely take on faith, without any "proof", or at any rate any which is considerable valid, or at least not "just silly", as a wise admin once said.

I don't completely suspend reality when I read a fantasy novel and think that when I put it down and walk out my door - I'm going to see elves running around. When religious people read the bible - they believe that there was really a noah or that the world really was created by a god. They really do belief in a mythical place called heaven and hell. I don't - just like I don't believe in many other things I read in fantasy books.

Oh, I feel sorry for us poor, stupid religious people. But why assume that "religious" means Christian? There are literally hundreds, thousands, maybe millions of religions out there, and very few of them believe the Bible.

So let me ask again - when you read a fantasy novel- do you expect to see elves and dragons running around outside?

Of course not; I'm not talking about believing in that. I'm saying, for the umpteenth time, that belief or faith in a higher power, or that which cannot be seen is often a theme in fantasy. Higher planes, lower planes, Heavens, Abysses, Hells, everything which is "supernatural", and thus contrary to the views held by those who believe that the supernatural is nothing but the opium of the masses, that belief without proof is just a crutch (not all atheists, but many). Again, I am not saying that atheists do not trust people, and so on and so forth; far from it! I am talking about belief in the invisible, the higher, the lower, taking things on faith.

Okay, not so short. And now I've missed most of my show!

[Ruinel]

Gwai, TV is the opiate of the masses. Break free of the needle!

As far as your definition of faith... I have 'faith' that you are a boy. I have not seen you in person, I only believe this without proof. There's your faith for ya.

And you still have not addressed the repeated reply that Atheists still like to enjoy a good story.

I have a question for you: if you are reading a good story in which the main character group worships a group of gods and goddesses. By reading this story and enjoying it, does this mean that you now worship other gods beside your Christian god. Do you have to believe that these gods and goddesses exist in order to enjoy the story? And if so, does this mean that you have now sinned by worshipping other gods/goddesses?

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Gwaimir Windgem
Oh, I feel sorry for us poor, stupid religious people. But why assume that "religious" means Christian? There are literally hundreds, thousands, maybe millions of religions out there, and very few of them believe the Bible.

I only mention the bible - because it's the main belief on this board. I don't believe that people's souls are held inside a cow until their reincarnation like the Hindus either. So I don't necessarily restrict it to Christian religions - it's just that more people are on Entmoot.

Of course not; I'm not talking about believing in that. I'm saying, for the umpteenth time, that belief or faith in a higher power, or that which cannot be seen is often a theme in fantasy. Higher planes, lower planes, Heavens, Abysses, Hells, everything which is "supernatural", and thus contrary to the views held by those who believe that the supernatural is nothing but the opium of the masses, that belief without proof is just a crutch (not all atheists, but many). Again, I am not saying that atheists do not trust people, and so on and so forth; far from it! I am talking about belief in the invisible, the higher, the lower, taking things on faith.

But your hypothesis makes no sense. I don't BELIEVE the stuff I read in a fantasy book. So what if it has devils or hell or other mysterious creatures and places. It's cool to think these things might exist while reading a book - but after I'm done - I don't think I'll run into any elves walking in my neighborhood.

The only TRUE mythical creature is the NEW JERSEY DEVIL.

[gollum9630]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
The only TRUE mythical creature is the NEW JERSEY DEVIL.

and the Ogopogo

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Ruinel
As far as your definition of faith... I have 'faith' that you are a boy. I have not seen you in person, I only believe this without proof. There's your faith for ya.

Except when you made him a girl and had him marrying Jonathan.

[IronParrot]

GW, I find your spin on this topic particularly interesting, largely because I have seen a great deal of anti-fantasy rhetoric from the religious right, but never from atheist groups. Certainly, the religious groups to which I refer are witch-hunters whose extremist fanaticism goes far beyond just faith, so I don't for a moment presume that they represent the religious.

As for why I like fantasy:

Well actually, as a genre on the whole, I don't. But it's not because it's "irrational"... I believe you are well aware with my gripes with silly names full of apostrophes placed in neverending stories that try to surpass Tolkien but only do so in length, not substance. I dislike much modern fantasy because a lot of it, to me, just isn't very good writing.

However, if someone asked me about my favourite works of literature, a number of fantasy titles would make it onto the list. Off the top of my head:

- LOTR
- Harry Potter
- Alice's Adventures in Wonderland / Through the Looking-Glass
- The Duncton Chronicles
- The Princess Bride
- The Wonderful Wizard of Oz (and several of the sequels)

And this would be woefully incomplete without naming cinema's crowning achievement in fantasy, Star Wars.

Now that I look at the works I've named, I can discern several patterns:

- Potter, Alice and Oz are all bound to the Earth we know in a very loose way. They all involve central characters who are children freed from the bonds of a dreary reality in a world where anything can happen: flying monkeys, living chessmen, high-speed football on broomsticks - the possibilities are vast and wondrous. I single these works out in particular not only because of the almost unsurpassed imagination behind them, but the sharp wit of the prose. They are funny, involving, whimsical, and capable of drawing me into a re-read when I so much as pick them up. GW, as you discuss fantasy in terms of faith, I doubt you were referring to this sort of fantasy.

- Very similarly, I'm not sure you were referring to the Princess Bride vein of fantasy, either.

- I never found LOTR to be a very religious work at all. If anything, it is a very earthly adventure; the central characters are ordinary hobbits drawn into a much larger world for a time, but the key thing to remember is that while these adventures changed them, they were ultimately not part of that much grander world. As for the adventure itself, I was drawn by the complexity of the plot, the depth/freedom of interpretability offered by the text, and just how much I missed the characters by the time I was done.

You will note that I did not name The Silmarillion.

- Star Wars took every cliché about fantasy fiction (specifically with regards to setting) and threw them out the window, keeping the plot and depth that appealed to me in much the same way with LOTR. It is an undeniable promotion of faith overcoming the artifice and machinations of man, for purposes both good and evil. The spiritual aspects did appeal to me in a way I will cover below.

- Duncton is about the most religious of all the works I named - very focused on faith, and largely built around religious wars among communities of moles that live in the English countryside and worship Stonehenge-esque monoliths. There is even a martyred Christ figure at one point, and it was rather obvious. But the execution of this seemingly ridiculous concept was done with just enough storytelling finesse that I loved it.

[IronParrot]

But allow me to generalize beyond just my works of preference, and speak of faith, divine order, fate, all that jazz.

Fate and destiny appeal to me in fiction because if used properly, foreshadowing is a very powerful literary device. If you look at Star Wars, a good chunk of the piece is about struggling with destiny, and that comprises some of the best parts of the entire saga. A lot of works considered "great" in their own way (though not necessarily favourites of mine) use predestination quite powerfully. Shakespeare and Sophocles come to mind right away. And for the record, I completely disagree with the premise of the ancient Greek tragedies that divine law supersedes human law and rationalism, but that doesn't suddenly make the stories they tell any less effective.

Characters with a lot of faith can be very interesting to follow, especially when you see them struggle with it, or gradually defined by its implications. Once again I point to Star Wars: not only does it focus on a supernatural power of sorts, but you see characters using and abusing it, and shaped by its lasting effects. To me, these were pretty legendary characters.

Dare I mention the Indiana Jones films? A common theme in all three of them is that faith conquers all, and that man should never aspire to be the conqueror in question. Some characters are driven by belief alone, while others are propelled by lust and greed; and all of these factors unite in stories that go miles and miles beyond run-of-the-mill action films, grand narratives of the supernatural with characters who are people. One thing I often praise Christianity for is that it brought us Raiders of the Lost Ark. I don't think that's a frivolous comment; in fact, I'm perfectly serious when I say that.

However, GW, you are on the right track (as far as my views are concerned) about one thing: I don't like it when religion and faith take over a story's integral structure. This is a problem I have with Lewis' Narnia, that despite all its wonderment, it sometimes falls into the trap of playing second fiddle to Message. Thankfully, it more than makes up for this with its various merits. Actually, Narnia is a bad example, because it actually is pretty good.

What, in conclusion, can we say about fantasy? It's fundamentally about expanding possibilities, opening the doors to imagination. And let's face it, the Bible is exemplary if taken as an epic of pseudo-historical fantasy fiction. It's practically unparalleled! It's a very exciting thing to see such a thorough motivic exploration of the sins of humanity, in the same way LOTR is such an applicable critique of the Power concept.

I've been reading the marvelous Don Quixote lately, so I'll point something out: practically all of the supporting characters see through the naivety of our gallant hero's belief that the perilous adventures of knights were all matters of fact. This does not preclude some of them from enjoying the fantasy stories of the day; in fact, many of these characters adore them! There is a huge difference between enjoying a story and believing that they actually happened. And for that reason, I find that fiction based on concepts of religion, faith, destiny, divine law, et cetera can be powerful for the exact same reasons the Bible has such wide appeal.

My point is, regardless of whether the author or the reader are religiously minded, good storytelling is still good storytelling. As long as religion doesn't get in storytelling's way, it's okay. And if it supplements it? Wonderful.

[Baby-K]

But you see, by "faith" I don't mean merely trust, but believing without sight, or without "proof"; not just trusting in them, for of course people do that, atheist, Christian, Jewish, Muslim, or belonging to an alternative religion, the full list of which is too long to type out, or even in all likelihood for a single human being to know. Trusting others is not what I mean. I mean faith, believing in that which we cannot see, with our eyes or the eyes of science.

Gwaim - faith = trust = believing in the unseen. I can't 'see' or scientifically prove that my friends or family won't harm me or that they love me, call it instinct if you want, but I 'know' it's true, with or without proof. And yeah, OK we can see the result of that love, but so we can see the result of faith in something higher than us (or are you willing to believe in something just because you are told to, without proof of their existence? Or without ever seeing any result of their love for you?)

Wow, just a month or two having left Christianity, she already decides we're oppressive threats. Doesn't take long for the dislike to settle in some. Have you then settled upon atheism, or are you still searching?

That's insulting, but I'll let it slide. I never said I gave up my belief in God - I gave up on Christians. There's a huge difference - God can exist without Christians, (but Christians cannot exist without Him). Also, I cannot assume atheism as my belief system of choice as I strongly believe in God, however I believe in science and mankind too & find more value in spirituality rather than religion (and yes, IMO there is a difference). BTW - I said the theme of fantasy was search for knowledge & truth or wanting to escape oppression or threats (where I come from '/' means either, OR not AND - blame it on my English second language education), as many atheists are searching for knowledge / truth seperate from religious influence, I did not say that Christians were opressive threats, if you wanna view yourself as such be my guest. Oh & btw, if you're gonna address me don't do so in the third person, it irritates me no end.

Whose geneaology? The one given in the bible? There are a lot of Noahs. I think this discussion can become very similar to the "Can you prove there was a JRR Tolkien".

The same way there has been & will be many people with your name, yet your offspring will be able to trace their roots back to you eventually. Oh & if it's about proving the existence of anyone in the past, I suppose we could debate whether or not we would ever be able to prove the existence of manking at all, 'cos for every yeah argument there will be a negative. And so we all board the neverending ferris wheel.

[GrayMouser]

I can see what Gwai's overall point is, and logically it should be that way, which just goes to show that our tastes are not particularly logical.

And of course he is right in insisting on the "spiritual" or "faith" rather than "Christian" distinction; one of my favorites is the Taoist-based 'Earthsea' series by Ursula K. LeGuin.

I don't know much about the modern Fantasy spawned by LoTR; most of my reading was in pre-Tolkien stuff. Some of it is "faith"-based - William Morris, George MacDonald, E.R. Eddison; some of it isn't - Lord Dunsany, Fritz Lieber.


How do "spiritual" types regard science-fiction? How many Christians like avowedly atheist writers like Heinlein or Asimov or Clarke?



Two good articles by SF author David Brin about Star Wars:

http://www.salon.com/ent/movies/feat.../15/brin_main/

and Tolkien:

http://www.davidbrin.com/tolkienarticle1.html

[IronParrot]

How do "spiritual" types regard science-fiction? How many Christians like avowedly atheist writers like Heinlein or Asimov or Clarke?

Don't forget Sagan and Adams.

Heh, it's interesting that you bring up David Brin, because after having read much of his material before, the guy really doesn't have a clue what he's talking about. But strangely enough, the links you pointed out are actually relevant.

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
Except when you made him a girl and had him marrying Jonathan.

And don't forget about his false pregnancy with Jonathan's baby.

Gwai, I would still like you to answer my question about idolitry. Or any religious Christian can also.