If Finrod had not died at Tol-in-Gaurhoth

[Wayfarer]

Lil' ol' me?

0:)

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Wayfarer
Lil' ol' me?

0

*eyeballs fake halo* yeah, you!

[Wayfarer]

*/sulks.

Not only do you need prodigous quantities of chain, I suggest a heavy dose of Valinorean wine for that attitude, missy.

[Rían]

I would have liked to see Finrod whup Curufin - I can't stand that Curufin creep!

[Ruinel]

Curufin is definitely a chip off the old block. He's as greedy as his old man and very self centered. Did he ever stop to think that Luthien didn't care for him? No, he didn't, nor would it have mattered. He was always out for himself. He was happy to see Finrod leave Nargothrond. All the better to take someone else's rule than have to create one yourself if the other is better. Right?

Wayfarer: I'll take the wine, but I'd have to say, Tequila is better. Take the chains back to the hardware store, you won't need them.

[Artanis]

Originally posted by Ruinel
Curufin is definitely a chip off the old block. He's as greedy as his old man and very self centered. Did he ever stop to think that Luthien didn't care for him? No, he didn't, nor would it have mattered. He was always out for himself. He was happy to see Finrod leave Nargothrond. All the better to take someone else's rule than have to create one yourself if the other is better. Right?

Ruinel, I agree with you on this one.

If Finrod and Beren had survived the caves of Angband together, Finrod would still be bound by his oath to assist Beren further on his quest. Chances are he would have died on that errand anyway, only later.

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Artanis
Ruinel, I agree with you on this one.

If Finrod and Beren had survived the caves of Angband together, Finrod would still be bound by his oath to assist Beren further on his quest. Chances are he would have died on that errand anyway, only later.

You mean, when they disguised themselves and Luthien danced everyone to sleep?

I have to disagree. If he had survived, he would not have died later (unless you can come up with a worse case for the two of them, Beren and Finrod). What could have been worse than the attack of the werewolf? Yes, he would still be bound by the oath and would have helped Beren.

[Inderjit Sanghera]

Did he ever stop to think that Luthien didn't care for him?

It was Celegorm, not Curufin who tried to marry Luthien. Curufin was married to a unkown Noldorin lady, hence his son, Celebrimbor.

He was always out for himself

One 'selfless' or in the very least 'good' act of Curufin, was that he didn't slay Eol, as he so easily could've.

The meeting between Eol and Curufin is good, since it shows (as is desirable) Curufin too often the villain (in a better and more honourable light....

HoME 11; Of Maeglin

I thgink that at what Tolkien is trying to hint on, and this could apply to the other Feanorian's as well is that Curufin's main published roles are in a negative light. We can only judge his actions that were important and after he was tainted by the oath. Do we really know what he was like in Aman?

Another selfless act of the 'gruesome twosome' was the rescuing of Orodreth from Minas-Tirith

There he would have been slain, but Celegorm and Curufin came up with the riders...and stemmed the tide for a while; thus Orodreth escaped and came to Nargothrond

HoME 11; The Grey Annals

[Ruinel]

*sigh* corrected again by Inderjit. Sorry. I will direct my disdain elsewhere then. Thank you.

[Rían]

Yes, but Curufin seems to be the instigator/mastermind of the plot against Lúthien and against Orodreth ... I still think he is creepy!

Oh, I don't have HoME 11 - looks good! That IS nice to hear something good about C & C.

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by RÃ*an
Yes, but Curufin seems to be the instigator/mastermind of the plot against Lúthien and against Orodreth ... I still think he is creepy!

He still is, I'm just too worn out today to argue the point.

[Artanis]

Originally posted by Inderjit Sanghera
It was Celegorm, not Curufin who tried to marry Luthien.

Oh dear, I was thinking of the version of the Lay. There it is Curufin who desires Luthien, and Curufin was the driving force behind their evil deeds. Tolkien changed the roles of the brothers a few times. My bad.

I thgink that at what Tolkien is trying to hint on, and this could apply to the other Feanorian's as well is that Curufin's main published roles are in a negative light. We can only judge his actions that were important and after he was tainted by the oath. Do we really know what he was like in Aman?

My resentment of both Curufin and Celegorm is mainly because of their betrayal of Luthien, and their cowardly attack on Beren and Luthien later on. These actions can not be explained by the oath. And regarding Eöl, when did it become honourable not to slay a person who doesn't intend ill, and there is no necessity at all? In the published Silmarillion, Curufin says: "By the laws of the Eldar I may not slay you at this time." It is clearly the law that restrains him, not his feeling of honour.

[Falagar]

My resentment of both Curufin and Celegorm is mainly because of their betrayal of Luthien, and their cowardly attack on Beren and Luthien later on. These actions can not be explained by the oath. And regarding Eöl, when did it become honourable not to slay a person who doesn't intend ill, and there is no necessity at all? In the published Silmarillion, Curufin says: "By the laws of the Eldar I may not slay you at this time." It is clearly the law that restrains him, not his feeling of honour.

Ëol had hijacked one of the Noldor princesseses, and weds her partly against her will. As one remember Aredhel was a good friend of the sons of Fëanáro, thus it's not very weird that Curufin wanted to slay him.He could forsee that Ëol was going to do something bad...

[Artanis]

Originally posted by Falagar
Ëol had hijacked one of the Noldor princesseses, and weds her partly against her will. As one remember Aredhel was a good friend of the sons of Fëanáro, thus it's not very weird that Curufin wanted to slay him.

That's my point. Curufin wanted to slay Eöl, but was held back by the law only, and not by the fact that Eöl on this occasion had no ill intentions in mind. That's not very honourable imo.

This is Tolkien's words on the matter, from HoME 11, Maeglin:

'Because the Eldar (which included the Sindar) were forbidden to slay one another in revenge for any grievance however great. Also at this time Eol had ridden towards Aglon with no ill intent, and it was not unjust that he should seek news of Aredel and Maeglin.'

[Inderjit Sanghera]

That's my point. Curufin wanted to slay Eöl, but was held back by the law only, and not by the fact that Eöl on this occasion had no ill intentions in mind. That's not very honourable imo.

But before your quote it is said:

Curufin could've slain Eol (as he greatly wished) and no one beyond the few men with him at his camp (who would never had betrayed him) would have ever heard it-or much mourned it

So he could've slain and got away with it him either way. Wrong or not. YET, he did not, which is in itself a sign of some honour.

My resentment of both Curufin and Celegorm is mainly because of their betrayal of Luthien, and their cowardly attack on Beren and Luthien later on. These actions can not be explained by the oath

Are you sure? Let's look at Finrod's words to Beren on Celegorm and Curufin:

And now Celegorm and Curufin are dwelling in my halls, and though I Finarfin's son they have won a strong power in the realm, and lead many of their own people. They have shown friendship to me in every need....

The Published Silmarillion; Beren and Luthien

So Celegorm and Curufin couldn’t have been that contemptuous or arrogant in Nargothrond or even before the Bragollach and in Aman to win the friendship of the Finarfians and Sindar of Nargothrond who would've had some misgivings of the Feanorians for the Kinslaying and to be a friend to Felagund in every need.

Also note the words 'But the curse of Mandos came upon the brothers', implying that the oath and curse were at work and took over all reasoning. IMO, each son of Feanor had a 'fall' in which the oath overtook their minds. Celegorm and Curufin in Nargothrond, Caranthir prior to the Second Kinslaying, Amrod prior to the Third and Maedhros and Maglor after the war of Wrath. (Amras was dead, as he was burned in his ship at Losgar upon arrival at Beleriand)

[Sister Golden Hair]

Yes, but the Silmarillion also says that:

For the war had gone ill with the sons of Fëanor, and well nigh all the east marches were taken by assault The Pass of Aglon was forced, though with great cost to the hosts of Morgoth; and Celegorm and Curufin being defeated fled south and west by the marches of Doriath, and coming at last to Nargothrond sought harbour with Finrod Felagund. Thus it came to pass that their people swelled the strength of Nargothrond; but it would have been better, as was after seen, if they had remained in the east among their own kin.

[Artanis]

Originally posted by Inderjit Sanghera So he could've slain and got away with it him either way. Wrong or not. YET, he did not, which is in itself a sign of some honour. [/B]

Well, I seem to disagree with you on what could be called honourable. I think Curufin did what was right to do, but for the wrong reason.

So Celegorm and Curufin couldn’t have been that contemptuous or arrogant in Nargothrond or even before the Bragollach and in Aman to win the friendship of the Finarfians and Sindar of Nargothrond who would've had some misgivings of the Feanorians for the Kinslaying and to be a friend to Felagund in every need.

I don't deny anything you say here. Celegorm and Curufin may have been a friend of Finrod of old, and behaved well enough on the earlier part of their sojourn in Nargothrond. But as I said, the reason I can't bring myself to like any of them is their behaviour towards Luthien and Beren. I fail to see how their imprisoning of Luthien have anything to do with the oath. They would be bound and cursed by the oath, yes, and perhaps obsessed by it, but how could the betrayal of Luthien help them to win back the Silmarils?

[Falagar]

Then Curufin looked darkly upon Eöl. 'Do not flaunt the title of your wife before me,' he said. 'For those who steal the daughters of the Noldor and wed them without gift or leave do not gain kinship with their kin. I have given you leave to go. Take it, and be gone. By the laws of the Eldar I may not slay you at this time. And this council I add: return now to your dwelling in the darkness of Nan Elmoth; for my heart warns me that if you now pursue those who love you no more, never will you return thiter.'

He even gave Eöl a warning, which shows that he had a gift of forsight; and, at least for a while, a certain amount of wisdom.

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Falagar
Ëol had hijacked one of the Noldor princesseses, and weds her partly against her will.

I think I need to read this part again. I'm not sure how she could be wedded "partly" against her will.

Artanis: you are a wise woman! Everytime I come here to this thread and read your responses I think, that's what I'm thinking also.

And I agree with Artanis. In The Sil...

...and Lúthien was betrayed; for they (Celegorm and Curufin) held her fast... and she was not permitted to speak with any save the brothers, Celegorm and Curufin. For now, believing that Beren and Felagund were prisoners beyond hope of aid, they purposed to let the King perish, and to keep Lúthien, and force Thingol to give her hand to Celegorm. Thus they would advance their power, and become the mightiest of the princes of Noldor.... Orodreth had no power to withstand them, for they swayed the hearts of the people of Nargothrond....

They're both scum, until I read otherwise.

[Falagar]

I think I need to read this part again. I'm not sure how she could be wedded "partly" against her will.

from The Silmarillion
It is not said that Aredhel was wholly unwilling, (...)