When an oath is not an oath! - Page 2

Falagar · 04-08-2003, 11:31 AM

Quote:

Yes, the first is what would happen if they decided to give up the oath without being released from it by the Valar

But could the Valar release them?

Artanis · 04-08-2003, 11:36 AM

Good question. I don't think the Valar could do it alone, they would IMO need permission from Ilúvatar through Manwë. Maedhros seemed to believe the Valar could not release them, and Maglor too.

Falagar · 04-08-2003, 11:42 AM

I'll just have to sum up some of my posts (I'm a little bit confused):
-If they had broken the oath, they would have done less evil than they didt (at least Maglor says so).

-But if they broke the oath, and followed the Valar back to Aman, they would start a war there, thus doing much evil (even though the Valar pardoned them?)...

-They didn't break the oath, killed some guards an ended up getting killed. Is that more evil than starting a war in Aman?

Artanis · 04-08-2003, 01:41 PM

I think we have a communication problem - either I'm totally unable to explain myself, or you're not capable of understanding what I'm saying - which one is nearest the truth you can decide

OK, I'm also confused now. I'll try to sum up the alternatives:

1. They hold to the oath, which means they'll have to make war on everyone who will not yield the Silmarils to them. This is the choice they actually made, so they attacked Eönwë, killed the guards and stole the jewels.
2. They submit to the Valar, go to Valinor and recieve pardon from Manwë and Varda, and from Ilúvatar through Manwë, and the Silmarils are given back to them. Then the oath would be made void, and Maedhros and Maglor could live in peace. This is what Maglor hoped for. But it seems like Maedhros didn't think it possible to receive pardon from Ilúvatar.
3. They submit to the Valar and go to Valinor, but do not receive pardon from Manwë/Varda/Ilúvatar, and the Silmarils stay in the keeping of the Valar. Then the oath would still be in work, and they would be forced to go to war in Valinor. This is what Maedhros feared would happen.
4. They break the oath, which means they accept the Silmarils to stay in the keeping of Eönwë, and later Manwë. But still they would not be released from the oath and must bear the consequences of breaking it. This is what Maglor names the lesser evil.

Phew - do this make sense?

Ruinel · 04-08-2003, 08:17 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Falagar
Ops, surra litt

Artanis · 04-09-2003, 01:55 AM

Norwegian.

Informal Norwegian, that is.

Falagar · 04-09-2003, 08:44 AM

I know, I shouldn't have done it...but I couldn't resist!

Ruinel · 04-09-2003, 09:56 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Falagar
I know, I shouldn't have done it...but I couldn't resist!

Sorry, you just took me by surprise.

04-08-2003, 11:36 AM	#22
Artanis Greatest Elven woman of Aman Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Having way too much fun with Fëanor's 7 Posts: 4,285	Good question. I don't think the Valar could do it alone, they would IMO need permission from Ilúvatar through Manwë. Maedhros seemed to believe the Valar could not release them, and Maglor too. __________________ --Life is hard, and then we die.

04-08-2003, 11:42 AM	#23
Falagar Death of Mooters and [Entmoot] Internal Affairs Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Oslo, Norway Posts: 2,870	I'll just have to sum up some of my posts (I'm a little bit confused): -If they had broken the oath, they would have done less evil than they didt (at least Maglor says so). -But if they broke the oath, and followed the Valar back to Aman, they would start a war there, thus doing much evil (even though the Valar pardoned them?)... -They didn't break the oath, killed some guards an ended up getting killed. Is that more evil than starting a war in Aman? __________________ Fëanor - Innocence incarnated Still, Aikanáro 'till the Last battle. Last edited by Falagar : 04-08-2003 at 11:44 AM.

04-08-2003, 01:41 PM	#24
Artanis Greatest Elven woman of Aman Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Having way too much fun with Fëanor's 7 Posts: 4,285	I think we have a communication problem - either I'm totally unable to explain myself, or you're not capable of understanding what I'm saying - which one is nearest the truth you can decide OK, I'm also confused now. I'll try to sum up the alternatives: 1. They hold to the oath, which means they'll have to make war on everyone who will not yield the Silmarils to them. This is the choice they actually made, so they attacked Eönwë, killed the guards and stole the jewels. 2. They submit to the Valar, go to Valinor and recieve pardon from Manwë and Varda, and from Ilúvatar through Manwë, and the Silmarils are given back to them. Then the oath would be made void, and Maedhros and Maglor could live in peace. This is what Maglor hoped for. But it seems like Maedhros didn't think it possible to receive pardon from Ilúvatar. 3. They submit to the Valar and go to Valinor, but do not receive pardon from Manwë/Varda/Ilúvatar, and the Silmarils stay in the keeping of the Valar. Then the oath would still be in work, and they would be forced to go to war in Valinor. This is what Maedhros feared would happen. 4. They break the oath, which means they accept the Silmarils to stay in the keeping of Eönwë, and later Manwë. But still they would not be released from the oath and must bear the consequences of breaking it. This is what Maglor names the lesser evil. Phew - do this make sense? __________________ --Life is hard, and then we die. Last edited by Artanis : 04-08-2003 at 01:42 PM.

04-09-2003, 01:55 AM	#26
Artanis Greatest Elven woman of Aman Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Having way too much fun with Fëanor's 7 Posts: 4,285	Norwegian. Informal Norwegian, that is. __________________ --Life is hard, and then we die. Last edited by Artanis : 04-09-2003 at 02:02 AM.

04-09-2003, 08:44 AM	#27
Falagar Death of Mooters and [Entmoot] Internal Affairs Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Oslo, Norway Posts: 2,870	I know, I shouldn't have done it...but I couldn't resist! __________________ Fëanor - Innocence incarnated Still, Aikanáro 'till the Last battle.

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