Are stupid outlandish names necessary in sci-fi/fantasy? - Page 2

Gwaimir Windgem · 03-13-2003, 11:43 PM

Completely agree with you. The 'outlandish' names are quite good, in my opinion. Though I also agree that sometimes authors get carried away.

Rána Eressëa · 03-18-2003, 09:27 PM

I like it when you base futuristic names on ancient names. Taking something that already exists and altering them, but have them keeping their roots. Or just any names for that matter. Take something that already exists (doesn't matter from what culture) and change it some - or a lot. Just keep its roots.

***IronParrot*** · 03-20-2003, 06:49 PM

But Tolkien succeeds in using outlandish names because he has a consistent model. Even before I understood anything about Elvish or whatnot, the first time I read LOTR, I noticed that the Orcs had certain rough-sounding aggressive names, and the Elves had more appealing names (many of which began with "El").

Tolkien's imitators, having not taken the time to actually construct a whole bunch of languages, aren't so successful when they just pick names out of a hat. Or a bag of Scrabble tiles. Or something.

Elvengirl · 03-20-2003, 08:30 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by IronParrot
But Tolkien succeeds in using outlandish names because he has a consistent model. Even before I understood anything about Elvish or whatnot, the first time I read LOTR, I noticed that the Orcs had certain rough-sounding aggressive names, and the Elves had more appealing names (many of which began with "El").

Tolkien's imitators, having not taken the time to actually construct a whole bunch of languages, aren't so successful when they just pick names out of a hat. Or a bag of Scrabble tiles. Or something.

Yeah, it's funny what some people come up with and a bit unnecessary.
Though I must admit I used to (well, still do

) get so confused with all of Tolkien's characters; so many names are so similar. But, you can see a difference in the names of different races. The Elven names are so beautiful

Gwaimir Windgem · 03-20-2003, 08:55 PM

Most people do use patterns for their names. I. E. A few Elvish names in DragonLance: Laurana, Gilthanas, Thanthalas, Solostran. See? They are similar in ways like Tolkien's name. Now if people named their character Iggle-boogie-bug, that would be ridiculous.

***IronParrot*** · 03-20-2003, 08:59 PM

I'm not quite catching the patterns and similarities you're referring to there, other than the dominating presence of A's and N's. Could you please explain how this is any less ridiculous than "Iggle-boogie-bug"?

Gwaimir Windgem · 03-20-2003, 09:01 PM

*shrugs* I don't know. They just sound good to me. They seem similar; in fact, I believe that they were actually developed from an invented language as well.

Gwaimir Windgem · 03-20-2003, 09:04 PM

Oops. I put Thanthalas; it should be Tanthalas. My bad.

Starr Polish · 03-22-2003, 03:31 AM

Someone on Amazon.com is trying to say that the Belgariad series is better than LOTR. Hmmph! I haven't read anything by David Edding, but I want to.

I have fallen victim to ridiculous fantasy names, but that was three years ago.

Gwaimir Windgem · 03-22-2003, 03:34 AM

How 'ridiculous' are we talking?

BTW, I would definitely recommend it. His Belgariad and Malloreon are awesome (haven't read the others yet).

Starr Polish · 03-22-2003, 03:57 AM

They weren't too bad. Some of the main characters names weren't really bad at all. Alani, Lela. But we did have Sir Giambale Clametio, and then Barmiona. Some of the names, of people, places, and things, were based on a primitive language I was developing at the time, based on what little latin I knew and made up letter combinations. Mind you, this was years before I got interested in Tolkien.

Other outlandish names, some good, some bad:

Haresce
Amaron
Cormoria
Ilunaj
Ilinam
Abesut
Nibasi
Malachianian (that's the worst, I think)
Darmisen
Gervase
Duke of Malrion, Luke DeDammerin
Tsuguae
Onimana
Syrinam
Cremalonary
Yvinneta
Invar Un

Don't steal 'em though! They are all mine.

Gwaimir Windgem · 03-22-2003, 04:00 AM

Don't worry, I like making up my own outlandish names.

ArwenEvenstar · 03-22-2003, 02:12 PM

Star those are eally awesome names, I have some, but I'm to lazy to post all them

Melko Belcha · 03-22-2003, 02:42 PM

I do really like the use of made up names in fantasy, but as many has said, some are way to far out there.

Gwaimir Windgem · 03-22-2003, 03:52 PM

I suppose I may as well post the ones I've come up with, as well.

Prepare to be Completely Bored! In cases where apply, I may include a primitive etymology.

Keyos (Kanrath/Nesai)
Entrioc (Kanrath/Nesai)
Seingath (Kanrath/Nesai)
Shanarien

(Elvish; shan "spell" ara "lady" ien (feminine name ending)
Elontar (Elvish; elon"soul" tar "bright") (this one has a fairish chance of not staying as is)
Dorelas (Elvish dorel "river" elas "bow)
Kalin (Dwarven)
Talin (Dwarven) (these two will almost certainly be kapoot, as I began a Dwarvish language)
Jankagar (Barbarian/Vikarzik)
Shindagra (Barbarian/Vikarzik)
Kensoth (Kanrath/Nesai)
Enstar (Kanrath/Nesai; possibly Centaurian)
Daraec (Gnomish [Gnomes may be excluded from my world] )
Fallos (Kanrath/Nesai)
Sharlen (Kanrath/Nesai; Half-Elf)
Rulgan (Kanrath/Nesai)
Eigath (Kanrath/Nesai)
Kwinetha (Kanrath/Nesai)
Arsun (Kanrath/Nesai)
Gulstan (Cthalgar)
Vanyadir (Elvish; originally 'elf-path-light'; but it came from my Elvish that was on the disk I lost

so I'm not quite sure about the specifics)
Estayen (Elvish; originally 'star-rider'; see above; I think esta "star" ayen "rider")
Tindorel (Elvish; orginally 'autumn-river', I think: see Vanyadir)
Teralon (Elvish; unsure on origin)
Ectaren (Elder Tongue; ectaren "consecrated")
Teran (Kanrath/Nesai)
Taldry (Gnomish; see Daraec)
Deran (Kanrath/Nesai)
Kuslen (Kanrath/Nesai)
Kinella (Kanrath/Nesai; Half-Elf)
Dalim (Dwarvish; see Talin and Kalin)
Ardast (Kanrath/Nesai)
Tigoth (Kanrath/Nesai)
Lentarec (Elder Tongue; from Elder Tongue notes on the disk, which have been lost)
Shanenessa (Elvish; shan "spell" anen "silver" essa "she of" suffix)
Originally Shanlanessa, with anen being replaced by anlan, an earlier word for silver.
Arulas (Elvish; arul Goodly or Supernatural Light ulas night; physical darkness)
Armine (unsure)
Tara (Elvish; tar "pure" ara "lady"; see Elontar)
Kadrilynn (Gnomish; see Daraec)
Ellac (Kanrath/Nesai? probably)
Saroth (Kanrath/Nesai? probably)
Bloodrain (Vampire)
Gorthogh (Demon)
Damin (Dwarvish; see Talin and Kalin)
Rugil (Kanrath/Nesai)
Trenett (Kanrath/Nesai)
Endon (Kanrath/Nesai)
Dalinor (Dwarvish; see Talin and Kalin)
Shan'lomen (Elvish; shan "spell" lomen (from previous Elvish, unsure if "word" or "golden")
Alganon (Kanrath/Nesai)
Teigost (Kanrath/Nesai)
Elton (Kanrath/Nesai)
Sagor (Kanrath/Nesai)

Deities, Powers, and Supernatural Beings:
Eltarn (Elder Tongue; eltarnost "He who blesseth"
Camras (unknown)
Lutas (unknown)
Kleptia (unknown)
Valrin (unknown)
Tarios (unknown
Galtir (unknown)
Sacrilla (unknown)
Lennia (unknown)
Delitia (unknown)
Ranwyl (unknown)
Arthil (unknown)
Karin (unknown)
Vilkroth (believed to be from Duorgothi, though unconfirmed)
Vuu'ora ("Lord of Blood" derived from Dark-Elven vuth "master" o'ora "blood", in the sense of drained or being drained)
Agrilzn (unknown)
Korzagazh (Dark Dwarven; "King of Hatred"; exact etymology unknown)
Seenai (presumed to be goblinic)
Sanroc (presumed to be goblinic)
Urgond (A barbarian tongue; "Chaotic")
Zakrazak (A barbarian tongue; "Warlord")
Tograku (A barbarian tongue; "Death-Doom")
Khulga (A barbarian tongue; "Life Master")
Zharha (Dark Elvish; zhar "spider" arha "queen)
Thu'iakh (Dark Elvish; thuu "master iakh "suffering")

There's a few more, but I don't feel like dragging up all of them.

Gwaimir Windgem · 03-23-2003, 01:06 AM

Told you you'd be completely bored.

Anyone else have any names they want to share?

If we get the forum, methinks we may need a topic for this.

Elvengirl · 03-23-2003, 07:58 PM

That's pretty cool.
Did you make those up?

Gwaimir Windgem · 03-23-2003, 08:09 PM

Yes indeed. Every one.

Also, another kinda name; my brother uses it for a screen-name, but he got it from my Dwarvish language.

Kazoron (Dwarvish; kazo "strong" oron "father")

Elvellyn · 03-23-2003, 11:42 PM

Thats ALOT of names, Gwaimir.

Gwaimir Windgem · 03-23-2003, 11:55 PM

Yep, that's what happens when you plan a half dozen or so books, and don't write any, as well as doing some world building.

There's also one, not really a name, but a handle my brother goes by, derived from my (very rudimentary) Dwarven language:

Kazoron (Dwarvish; kazo "strong" oron "father")

Also another one I think I forgot:

Shelant (Kanrath/Nesai)

EDIT: Also in my early days, I gave surnames to most characters, a practice which has been discontinued; but Estayen was originally a surname for Vanyadir (both of which were religious names), and many of the Kanrathi/Nesai names were surnames.

03-13-2003, 11:43 PM	#21
Gwaimir Windgem Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Thomas Aquinas College, Santa Paula, CA Posts: 10,820	Completely agree with you. The 'outlandish' names are quite good, in my opinion. Though I also agree that sometimes authors get carried away. __________________ Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle

03-20-2003, 06:49 PM	#23
*IronParrot* Fowl Administrator Join Date: Dec 1999 Location: Calgary or Edmonton, Canada Posts: 53,420	But Tolkien succeeds in using outlandish names because he has a consistent model. Even before I understood anything about Elvish or whatnot, the first time I read LOTR, I noticed that the Orcs had certain rough-sounding aggressive names, and the Elves had more appealing names (many of which began with "El"). Tolkien's imitators, having not taken the time to actually construct a whole bunch of languages, aren't so successful when they just pick names out of a hat. Or a bag of Scrabble tiles. Or something. __________________ All of IronParrot's posts are guaranteed to be 100% intelligent and/or sarcastic, comprising no genetically modified content and tested on no cute furry little animals unless the SPCA is looking elsewhere. If you observe a failure to uphold this warranty, please contact a forum administrator immediately to receive a full refund on your Entmoot registration. Blog: Nick's Café Canadien

03-20-2003, 08:55 PM	#25
Gwaimir Windgem Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Thomas Aquinas College, Santa Paula, CA Posts: 10,820	Most people do use patterns for their names. I. E. A few Elvish names in DragonLance: Laurana, Gilthanas, Thanthalas, Solostran. See? They are similar in ways like Tolkien's name. Now if people named their character Iggle-boogie-bug, that would be ridiculous. __________________ Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle

03-20-2003, 08:59 PM	#26
*IronParrot* Fowl Administrator Join Date: Dec 1999 Location: Calgary or Edmonton, Canada Posts: 53,420	I'm not quite catching the patterns and similarities you're referring to there, other than the dominating presence of A's and N's. Could you please explain how this is any less ridiculous than "Iggle-boogie-bug"? __________________ All of IronParrot's posts are guaranteed to be 100% intelligent and/or sarcastic, comprising no genetically modified content and tested on no cute furry little animals unless the SPCA is looking elsewhere. If you observe a failure to uphold this warranty, please contact a forum administrator immediately to receive a full refund on your Entmoot registration. Blog: Nick's Café Canadien

03-20-2003, 09:01 PM	#27
Gwaimir Windgem Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Thomas Aquinas College, Santa Paula, CA Posts: 10,820	shrugs I don't know. They just sound good to me. They seem similar; in fact, I believe that they were actually developed from an invented language as well. __________________ Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle

03-18-2003, 09:27 PM	#22
Rána Eressëa The Rogue Elf Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 1,722	I like it when you base futuristic names on ancient names. Taking something that already exists and altering them, but have them keeping their roots. Or just any names for that matter. Take something that already exists (doesn't matter from what culture) and change it some - or a lot. Just keep its roots.

03-20-2003, 09:04 PM	#28
Gwaimir Windgem Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Thomas Aquinas College, Santa Paula, CA Posts: 10,820	Oops. I put Thanthalas; it should be Tanthalas. My bad. __________________ Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle

03-22-2003, 03:31 AM	#29
Starr Polish Elf Lord Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Slow down and I sail on the river, slow down and I walk to the hill Posts: 2,389	Someone on Amazon.com is trying to say that the Belgariad series is better than LOTR. Hmmph! I haven't read anything by David Edding, but I want to. I have fallen victim to ridiculous fantasy names, but that was three years ago. __________________ “The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts.” –Bertrand Russell

03-22-2003, 03:34 AM	#30
Gwaimir Windgem Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Thomas Aquinas College, Santa Paula, CA Posts: 10,820	How 'ridiculous' are we talking? BTW, I would definitely recommend it. His Belgariad and Malloreon are awesome (haven't read the others yet). __________________ Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle

03-22-2003, 03:57 AM	#31
Starr Polish Elf Lord Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Slow down and I sail on the river, slow down and I walk to the hill Posts: 2,389	They weren't too bad. Some of the main characters names weren't really bad at all. Alani, Lela. But we did have Sir Giambale Clametio, and then Barmiona. Some of the names, of people, places, and things, were based on a primitive language I was developing at the time, based on what little latin I knew and made up letter combinations. Mind you, this was years before I got interested in Tolkien. Other outlandish names, some good, some bad: Haresce Amaron Cormoria Ilunaj Ilinam Abesut Nibasi Malachianian (that's the worst, I think) Darmisen Gervase Duke of Malrion, Luke DeDammerin Tsuguae Onimana Syrinam Cremalonary Yvinneta Invar Un Don't steal 'em though! They are all mine. __________________ “The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts.” –Bertrand Russell

03-22-2003, 04:00 AM	#32
Gwaimir Windgem Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Thomas Aquinas College, Santa Paula, CA Posts: 10,820	Don't worry, I like making up my own outlandish names. __________________ Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle

03-22-2003, 02:12 PM	#33
ArwenEvenstar Elf Lord Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: and why do YOU want to know? Posts: 685	Star those are eally awesome names, I have some, but I'm to lazy to post all them __________________ The only thing active about me is my imagination!

03-22-2003, 02:42 PM	#34
Melko Belcha Elven Warrior Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Behind the Walls of Night Posts: 286	I do really like the use of made up names in fantasy, but as many has said, some are way to far out there. __________________ "....rapturous words from which ultimatley sprang the whole of my mythology" - JRR Tolkien Hail Earendel brightest of angels, over middle-earth sent unto men Crist by Cynewulf (lines 104-5)

03-22-2003, 03:52 PM	#35
Gwaimir Windgem Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Thomas Aquinas College, Santa Paula, CA Posts: 10,820	I suppose I may as well post the ones I've come up with, as well. Prepare to be Completely Bored! In cases where apply, I may include a primitive etymology. Keyos (Kanrath/Nesai) Entrioc (Kanrath/Nesai) Seingath (Kanrath/Nesai) Shanarien (Elvish; shan "spell" ara "lady" ien (feminine name ending) Elontar (Elvish; elon"soul" tar "bright") (this one has a fairish chance of not staying as is) Dorelas (Elvish dorel "river" elas "bow) Kalin (Dwarven) Talin (Dwarven) (these two will almost certainly be kapoot, as I began a Dwarvish language) Jankagar (Barbarian/Vikarzik) Shindagra (Barbarian/Vikarzik) Kensoth (Kanrath/Nesai) Enstar (Kanrath/Nesai; possibly Centaurian) Daraec (Gnomish [Gnomes may be excluded from my world] ) Fallos (Kanrath/Nesai) Sharlen (Kanrath/Nesai; Half-Elf) Rulgan (Kanrath/Nesai) Eigath (Kanrath/Nesai) Kwinetha (Kanrath/Nesai) Arsun (Kanrath/Nesai) Gulstan (Cthalgar) Vanyadir (Elvish; originally 'elf-path-light'; but it came from my Elvish that was on the disk I lost so I'm not quite sure about the specifics) Estayen (Elvish; originally 'star-rider'; see above; I think esta "star" ayen "rider") Tindorel (Elvish; orginally 'autumn-river', I think: see Vanyadir) Teralon (Elvish; unsure on origin) Ectaren (Elder Tongue; ectaren "consecrated") Teran (Kanrath/Nesai) Taldry (Gnomish; see Daraec) Deran (Kanrath/Nesai) Kuslen (Kanrath/Nesai) Kinella (Kanrath/Nesai; Half-Elf) Dalim (Dwarvish; see Talin and Kalin) Ardast (Kanrath/Nesai) Tigoth (Kanrath/Nesai) Lentarec (Elder Tongue; from Elder Tongue notes on the disk, which have been lost) Shanenessa (Elvish; shan "spell" anen "silver" essa "she of" suffix) Originally Shanlanessa, with anen being replaced by anlan, an earlier word for silver. Arulas (Elvish; arul Goodly or Supernatural Light ulas night; physical darkness) Armine (unsure) Tara (Elvish; tar "pure" ara "lady"; see Elontar) Kadrilynn (Gnomish; see Daraec) Ellac (Kanrath/Nesai? probably) Saroth (Kanrath/Nesai? probably) Bloodrain (Vampire) Gorthogh (Demon) Damin (Dwarvish; see Talin and Kalin) Rugil (Kanrath/Nesai) Trenett (Kanrath/Nesai) Endon (Kanrath/Nesai) Dalinor (Dwarvish; see Talin and Kalin) Shan'lomen (Elvish; shan "spell" lomen (from previous Elvish, unsure if "word" or "golden") Alganon (Kanrath/Nesai) Teigost (Kanrath/Nesai) Elton (Kanrath/Nesai) Sagor (Kanrath/Nesai) Deities, Powers, and Supernatural Beings: Eltarn (Elder Tongue; eltarnost "He who blesseth" Camras (unknown) Lutas (unknown) Kleptia (unknown) Valrin (unknown) Tarios (unknown Galtir (unknown) Sacrilla (unknown) Lennia (unknown) Delitia (unknown) Ranwyl (unknown) Arthil (unknown) Karin (unknown) Vilkroth (believed to be from Duorgothi, though unconfirmed) Vuu'ora ("Lord of Blood" derived from Dark-Elven vuth "master" o'ora "blood", in the sense of drained or being drained) Agrilzn (unknown) Korzagazh (Dark Dwarven; "King of Hatred"; exact etymology unknown) Seenai (presumed to be goblinic) Sanroc (presumed to be goblinic) Urgond (A barbarian tongue; "Chaotic") Zakrazak (A barbarian tongue; "Warlord") Tograku (A barbarian tongue; "Death-Doom") Khulga (A barbarian tongue; "Life Master") Zharha (Dark Elvish; zhar "spider" arha "queen) Thu'iakh (Dark Elvish; thuu "master iakh "suffering") There's a few more, but I don't feel like dragging up all of them. __________________ Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle Last edited by Gwaimir Windgem : 03-23-2003 at 01:08 AM.

03-23-2003, 01:06 AM	#36
Gwaimir Windgem Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Thomas Aquinas College, Santa Paula, CA Posts: 10,820	Told you you'd be completely bored. Anyone else have any names they want to share? If we get the forum, methinks we may need a topic for this. __________________ Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle

03-23-2003, 07:58 PM	#37
Elvengirl Mirthful Maiden Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Rivendell Posts: 1,252	That's pretty cool. Did you make those up? __________________ The Elves represent, as it were, the artistic, aesthetic, and purely scientific aspects of the Humane nature raised to a higher level than is actually seen in Men.~ J.R.R. Tolkien Wanna play? www.thievesguild.com

03-23-2003, 08:09 PM	#38
Gwaimir Windgem Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Thomas Aquinas College, Santa Paula, CA Posts: 10,820	Yes indeed. Every one. Also, another kinda name; my brother uses it for a screen-name, but he got it from my Dwarvish language. Kazoron (Dwarvish; kazo "strong" oron "father") __________________ Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle

03-23-2003, 11:42 PM	#39
Elvellyn The Redneck Elf Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: In a house Posts: 539	Thats ALOT of names, Gwaimir. __________________ Oliphants make great pets.

03-23-2003, 11:55 PM	#40
Gwaimir Windgem Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Thomas Aquinas College, Santa Paula, CA Posts: 10,820	Yep, that's what happens when you plan a half dozen or so books, and don't write any, as well as doing some world building. There's also one, not really a name, but a handle my brother goes by, derived from my (very rudimentary) Dwarven language: Kazoron (Dwarvish; kazo "strong" oron "father") Also another one I think I forgot: Shelant (Kanrath/Nesai) EDIT: Also in my early days, I gave surnames to most characters, a practice which has been discontinued; but Estayen was originally a surname for Vanyadir (both of which were religious names), and many of the Kanrathi/Nesai names were surnames. __________________ Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle Last edited by Gwaimir Windgem : 03-23-2003 at 11:57 PM.

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