Greatest of the Edain

[Sween]

My two favorites are Beren and Tour. Allthough Hurin was a great warrior and was held captive for so long he was only kept alive by the wills of morgoth rather than his own will.

Beren is in IMHO the migest because he took upon a task that would of been deemed impossiable and in all truth probaboly was.

He showed real bravery in all his life.

Hurin also showed real Bravery in the way he let Turgon return back to the hidden kingdom and in all truth sacrificed all his men and his own life. But didnt all the men under his command also take upon this fate?

Tour i also deem great because of the part in which he played in downfall in morgoth even though it is clear it was his destiny.

By my vote goes to Beren

[Falagar]

My two favorites are Beren and Tour. Allthough Hurin was a great warrior and was held captive for so long he was only kept alive by the wills of morgoth rather than his own will.

Yes, but the point isn't that he managed to stay alive, but that he actually defied Morgoth, the mightiest (at least in the beginning) being in Arda, face to face! Only one others of the Children of Ilúvatar did that: Fëanor (yes, I'm aware of that Fingolfin fought him).

[Sween]

Originally posted by Falagar
Yes, but the point isn't that he managed to stay alive, but that he actually defied Morgoth, the mightiest (at least in the beginning) being in Arda, face to face! Only one others of the Children of Ilúvatar did that: Fëanor (yes, I'm aware of that Fingolfin fought him).

How many got the chance?

[Falagar]

Ehhh....well...It's not like he was unavailable. They could just go to Angband, knock on the door, asking the great dog lying in their way to go and fetch Morgoth, and then say: "I defy you!" up in his face. It's not that hard

[Arien the Maia]

Originally posted by Falagar
Ehhh....well...It's not like he was unavailable. They could just go to Angband, knock on the door, asking the great dog lying in their way to go and fetch Morgoth, and then say: "I defy you!" up in his face. It's not that hard

LOL that's true I think that Morgoth is all too willing to fight anybody who wants to fight him...

[Maedhros]

Well, you said that Beren and all of his companions were afraid, so you brought it into the thread. My take on this comparison is that yes, Beren and his companions were afraid because they knew their fate was to be mercilessly tortured and killed.

It was actually the author that said that.

Húrin however did not face any physical torture or death.

Certainly that Húrin didn't die but he did face torture.
From the Lays of Beleriand: The Second Version of the Children of Húrin

Said the dread Lord of Hell: 'Dauntless Húrin,
stout steel-handed, stands before me
yet quick a captive, as a coward might be!
Then knows he my name, or needs be told
what hope he has in the halls of iron?
The bale most bitter, Balrogs' torment! '

Hmmm, the balrogs torment sounds to me like torture. I would say that to me, the fact that Húrin was kept alive by Morgoth was a worse punishment that being killed. The fact that Tolkien tells that Húrin might of soul unmatched in mankind says something about him.

Allthough Hurin was a great warrior and was held captive for so long he was only kept alive by the wills of morgoth rather than his own will.

A worse punishment I cannot imagine. Húrin didn't break, but I wonder how Beren would have managed.

Beren is in IMHO the migest because he took upon a task that would of been deemed impossiable and in all truth probaboly was.

And he had help of Finrod, Lúthien and Huan. While Húrin had no such help.

He showed real bravery in all his life.

Like when Sauron took away their disguises and they were afraid? Was that real bravery too?

[Sister Golden Hair]

Please! I don't know that you can compare it. Are you saying that what happened to Beren and Finrod did not take bravery? The horror that they suffered was different and I think much more violent. Don't demeen that quest. It was great if not greater, and the suffering was immense.

[Dúnedain]

Ok, when I first read this thread yesterday it seemed like an "Opinion Thread", but now it has turned into a flaming war. I mean, are people not entitled to their opinions on this Maedhros? I like your persistance and the proof you've provided for your case, but let's not turn this into an arguement, we can all keep it civil, well except SGH hehe j/k!!

I would chime in with an opinion of my own here, however I haven't finished reading on all of these characters brought up yet, so I won't comment until I do so, but out of those I have read, I think each carries might/power/greatness/etc... in differing characteristics and in their own way...

[Maedhros]

The horror that they suffered was different and I think much more violent. Don't demeen that quest. It was great if not greater, and the suffering was immense.

Much more violent? Somehow I don't think that Sauron can pose more fear than his master Morgoth.
If I recall correctly, Beren was sitting waiting to die.
From the Published Silmarillion: Of Beren and Lúthien

In the pits of Sauron Beren and Felagund lay, and all their companions were now dead; but Sauron purposed to keep Felagund to the last, for he perceived that he was a Noldo of great might and wisdom, and he deemed that in him lay the secret of their errand. But when the wolf came for Beren, Felagund put forth all his power, and burst his bonds; and he wrestled with the werewolf, and slew it with his hands and teeth; yet he himself was wounded to the death.

Beren had Finrod to save him, cool. Too bad that Húrin didn't have an elf lord in there too. Wait, he did had one, but he chose to put his life in order to save Turgon.
Another thing, Beren's quest became because of her love for Lúthien, a noble cause, but a selfish one, while Húrin saved Turgon so that the hope of the Eldar could still live on.

[Maedhros]

but now it has turned into a flaming war. I mean, are people not entitled to their opinions on this Maedhros? I like your persistance and the proof you've provided for your case, but let's not turn this into an arguement, we can all keep it civil,

I resent the flaming thing. I have not ridiculed or insulted anyone. I think that we have engaged in a very polite and interesting discussion regarding Beren, Húrin and other characters of the Silmarillion.
P.S. I'm not in the business of changing people opinions, I'm in the business of discussing the Silmarillion.

[Dúnedain]

Originally posted by Maedhros
I resent the flaming thing. I have not ridiculed or insulted anyone. I think that we have engaged in a very polite and interesting discussion regarding Beren, Húrin and other characters of the Silmarillion.
P.S. I'm not in the business of changing people opinions, I'm in the business of discussing the Silmarillion.

Not saying only you are flaming, it was a general statement for the thread that's all

[Keith K]

After reading all of the above arguments and adding them to my own opinions, I can state that I am firmly in the Hurin camp. He was the greatest of the Edain!

[Sween]

Originally posted by Maedhros
It was actually the author that said that.

Like when Sauron took away their disguises and they were afraid? Was that real bravery too?

yes they never revelved to sauron whom they were or what were their purposes. And after he was rescued and made safe he begged luthien to go back and he would still of gone on even after all that to an even deadlier peril....alone if needs be.

Depends how you define greatness was frodo as great as say Gandalf or aragorn? Did he have as much inate power as Gandalf hell no but did he face toil and still go on yes. Does this make him great yes.

Beren has one thing over Hurin He cut a similil from the crown of morgoth achived the unthinkiable if you match greatness to the overall achivement downfall of morgoth then he easily wins.

[Maedhros]

Beren has one thing over Húrin. He cut a silmaril from the crown of morgoth; achived the unthinkiable if you match greatness to the overall achivement downfall of morgoth then he easily wins.

Are you sure?
Question # 1: Why did Beren volunteer for the quest of the Silmaril?
Answer: Because he wanted to wed Lúthien, nor for the sake of ME, but to gain something himself.
Question # 2: Why did Húrin and Huor volunteer their lives to safe Turgon?
Answer # 2: From the Published Silmarillion: Of the Fifth Battle: Nirnaeth Arnoediad

The field was lost; but still Húrin and Huor and the remnant of the house of Hador stood firm with Turgon of Gondolin, and the hosts of Morgoth could not yet win the Pass of Sirion. Then Húrin spoke to Turgon, saying: 'Go now, lord, while time is! For in you lives the last hope of the Eldar, and while Gondolin stands Morgoth shall still know fear in his heart.'

Because he would sacrifice himself for the good of ME. His reasons were unselfish.
Overall downfall of Morgoth you say? If someone of Turgon party like Maeglin would have been captured by Morgoth, they could have found the location of Gondolin sooner and Tuor would have no way of going there later.
I ask you all, the deeds or the reasons behind them.
Húrin could have betrayed the Eldar, he had no hope of escaping Angband, yet he resisted, he didn't gave up and he stood firmly against him and his daunting eyes.
From Morgoth's Ring: Myths Transformed

So that they come at last to Utumno itself and find that 'the Morgoth' has no longer for the moment sufficient 'force' (in any sense) to shield himself from direct personal contact. Manwë at last faces Melkor again, as he has not done since he entered Arda. Both are amazed: Manwë to perceive the decrease in Melkor as a person, Melkor to perceive this also from his own point of view: he has now less personal force than Manwë, and can no longer daunt him with his gaze.

Granted that Melkor had continually lost power, but if his gaze at one time could have daunted Manwë, imagine what it could have done to a mere mortal? But Húrin too, remain undaunted by it.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Dúnedain
Not saying only you are flaming, it was a general statement for the thread that's all

I haven't seen what I would qualify as flaming in this thread. I think we had a sharp disagreement on the greatness of Beren and Hurin. That is what debating is about, and Maedhros and I spoke off the board about our disagreement. I think if we all had the same opinion, then we would have nothing to disagree on and therefore nothing to talk about, but there has been no flaming that I can see.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Húrin saved Turgon so that the hope of the Eldar could still live on.

True. What a shame that Hurin inadvertently caused Gondolin to be revealed to Morgoth after all that.

[Sween]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
True. What a shame that Hurin inadvertently caused Gondolin to be revealed to Morgoth after all that.

Hurin initonally mocked Morgoth a valient if quite pointless act (sealed the doom of his children) but in the end he broken and in many ways aided the enemy. A very unfortinate end to a great man.

It would be nice to ask the elves whom they valued the most Hurin or Beren i would imigin they would say Beren.

For all Hurins valour what did he achive (personally speaking)?

[Falagar]

I would say that seeing his family being destroyed through Morgoth's eyes on top of Morgoth's own fortress was worse than anything Sauron could do...

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Falagar
I would say that seeing his family being destroyed through Morgoth's eyes on top of Morgoth's own fortress was worse than anything Sauron could do...

Well, I think we need to see the difference in that. The pain and torment suffered by Beren and his companions was more physical, but more brief. Hurin's Torment was long and emotional. Both were bad though.

[Falagar]

And one more thing, while I'm at it:
Beren made the downfall of Doriath as much as Húrin made the downfall of Gondolin!