Túrin and Nienor

[Wayfarer]

Is this character from Alabama or Kentucky, do you think? ]: )

Lalaith, you don't have any siblings of your own do you? Please say no.

Their relationship was the result of Glaurungs (and ultimately Morgoths) depraved nature. He certainly found it entertaining. I don't. There was no real romance involved.

[Lalaith]

for this incestuous relationship, again, they were not in their right minds until they were released from the spell of the dragon, which is what lead to their deaths. Think about it. If they were truly in love with one another, then why would they feel the need to kill themselves once they realized they were brother and sister?

Okay, maybe you're right. I think they felt love like you feel for you beloved brother/sister and then they felt this strange thing they called love.
But I think in some way their minds were independent and they loved each other really from the heart.
And I think that they killed each other, when they knew that they were brother and sister, because in normal social circumstances it is impossible that brother and sister feel more for each other. The thought of sleeping with the brother must be very strange and it was again impossible to do that with your brother and have even children with him/her.
I guess, they wanted to be together, because they loved each other, but they knew as brother and sister this could not work and for that reason they killed themselves.

[Lalaith]

Lalaith, you don't have any siblings of your own do you? Please say no.

I have to disapoint you, I have siblings. Okay, actually I only have one sister, but I know lot's of boys who are like brothers to me and I kind of love them, but more than that will never be.

And this discussion goes deeper than I thought. Is there nobody out there who likes the story of the two of them? (Actually I talked to a few people who found it sweet, but not here).

[Sister Golden Hair]

Let us make a compromise of sorts. Let's say that while they were under the spell of the dragon, they were truly in love, but once the spell was broken, they were truly devistated and revolted by what they had done and with who. Does that sound reasonable?

[congressmn]

I think i like the story lalaith. and i know what u mean.

[congressmn]

yes very sister golden hair.
absolutely i agree with u.
quite a superb solution

[Sister Golden Hair]

And this discussion goes deeper than I thought. Is there nobody out there who likes the story of the two of them? (Actually I talked to a few people who found it sweet, but not here).

I love the story. I just don't find it to be romantic. It is tragic and sad.

[Lalaith]

Let us make a compromise of sorts. Let's say that while they were under the spell of the dragon, they were truly in love, but once the spell was broken, they were truly devistated and revolted by what they had done and with who. Does that sound reasonable?

I was just thinking: Will there never be a solution between us, but now this comprimise.
Okay, that sounds good for me and ... I think each has to decide for her/himself if he finds the love story romantic or cute or disgusting or whatever.
So, I have to ask you, Sister Golden Hair, which ARDA story do you think is really romantic (say Faramir and Eowyn and we'll have a real comprimise).

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Lalaith
I was just thinking: Will there never be a solution between us, but now this comprimise.
Okay, that sounds good for me and ... I think each has to decide for her/himself if he finds the love story romantic or cute or disgusting or whatever.
So, I have to ask you, Sister Golden Hair, which ARDA story do you think is really romantic (say Faramir and Eowyn and we'll have a real comprimise).

Darn! Now there we will just agree to disagree. I think the most romantic story of all is Beren and Luthien.

[Wayfarer]

Definitely.

[Lalaith]

. I think the most romantic story of all is Beren and Luthien

God, I forgot about Beren and Luthien. My mistake, but maybe it is because I've read LotR more often than the Silmarillion (and the unfinished tales), so I I know the story of Faramir and Eowyn better than the one of Beren and Luthien. But you're right, this story is really romantic, too.
And I'm more concerned about Faramir and Eowyn, because I wrote a peom about the two of them (just for fun, during school lessons).
But still, Beren and Luthien rock!

[Sister Golden Hair]

Another romantic but sad love story is the love between Andreth and Aegnor, especially since it was the only love involving a male Elf and a Human female.

[Lalaith]

Another romantic but sad love story is the love between Andreth and Aegnor, especially since it was the only love involving a male Elf and a Human female.

Unfortunately I have to tell that I have no idea what this story is about. The names sound familiar to me, but I can't remember the story. Where is it written? Can you tell me a little bit of it, please.
And .... Sister Golden Hair .... it sounds like you know Tolkiens world quite good. That's cool. I wanna reach that too, by reading his books again and again
Quite cool now we found a common baseline.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Lalaith
Unfortunately I have to tell that I have no idea what this story is about. The names sound familiar to me, but I can't remember the story. Where is it written? Can you tell me a little bit of it, please.
And .... Sister Golden Hair .... it sounds like you know Tolkiens world quite good. That's cool. I wanna reach that too, by reading his books again and again
Quite cool now we found a common baseline.

Thank you Lalaith. I know a little about Tolkien's world after reading it for some thrty years. Not as much as many others know.

The story of Aegnor and Andreth is in volume 10, Morgoth's Ring, Athrabeth Finrod Ah Andreth, The Histories of Middle-earth Series.

Andreth was a wise woman that fell in love with Aegnor, Finrod and Galadriel's youngest brother. Aegnor loved Andreth also, but turned away because of a few things really. He would not forsake the war and his kin for her, and he knew that any marriage with a mortal would only be for some high purpose of doom and would be bitter to the end. Also, he could not bear to see her get old and die. The strange thing is that he died before her, but he refused to return to life because he could not bear to live in the world without her once she died. Also in his life, he would never take a bride of his own kin, because he loved her so much. It is a great story.

There is a thread in the Middle-earth forum "Athrabeth Finrod Ah Andreth" with a large quote done by Nolendil out of this story, that you may want to go read. It will give you some idea of what is going on in this sad relationship. This story is actually a lengthy debate that takes place between Finrod Felagund and Andreth.

If you notice my sig. it is from that story.

[Dúnedain]

I assume I was right about this story, judging by the posts from everyone then

[Sister Golden Hair]

Lalaith, I have found that part of the story that Nolendil posted. I am adding a little more to it because it is at the end of the story. I also have to do it in two post to get it all in.

'I have not asked for comfort,' said Andreth. 'For what do I need it?'

'For the doom of Men that has touched thee as a woman,' said Finrod. 'Dost thou think that I do not know? Is he not my brother dearly loved? Aegnor: Aikanár, the Sharp-Flame, swift and eager. And not long are the years since you first met, and your hands touched in this darkness. Yet then thou wert a maiden, brave and eager, in the morning upon the high hills of Dorthonion.'

'Say on!' said Andreth. 'Say: who art now but a wise-woman, alone, and age that shall not touch him has already set winter's grey in thy hair! But say not thou to me, for so he once did!'

'Alas!' said Finrod. 'That is the bitterness, beloved adaneth, woman of Men, is it not? that has run through all your words. If I could speak any comfort, you would deem it lordly from one on my side of the sundering doom. But what can I say, save to remind you of the Hope that you yourself have revealed?'

'I did not say that it was ever my hope,' answered Andreth. 'And even were it so, I would still cry: why should this hurt come here and now? Why should we love you, and why should ye love us (if ye do), and yet set the gulf between?'

'Because we were so made, close kin,' said Finrod. 'But we did not make ourselves, and therefore we, the Eldar, did not set the gulf. Nay, adaneth, we are not lordly in this, but pitiful [i.e., filled with pity, compassionate]. That word will displease thee. Yet pity is of two kinds one is of kinship recognized, and is near to love; the other is of difference of fortune perceived, and is near to pride. I speak of the former.'

'Speak of neither to me!' said Andreth. 'I desire neither. I was young and I looked on his flame, and now I am old and lost. He was young and his flame leaped towards me, but he turned away, and he is young still. Do candles pity moths?'

'Or moths candles, when the wind blows them out?' said Finrod. 'Adaneth, I tell thee, Aikanár the Sharp-Flame loved thee. For thy sake now he will never take the hand of any bride of his own kindred, but live alone to the end, remembering the morning in the hills of Dorthonion. But too soon in the Northwind his flame will go out! Foresight is given to the Eldar in many things not far off, though seldom of joy, and I say to thee thou shalt live long in the order of your kind, and he will go forth before thee and he will not wish to return.'

Then Andreth stood up and stretched her hands to the fire. 'Then why did he turn away? Why leave me while I had still a few good years to spend?'

'Alas!' said Finrod. 'I fear the truth will not satisfy thee. The Eldar have one kind, and ye another; and each judges the other by themselves -- until they learn, as do few. This is time of war, Andreth, and in such days the Elves do not wed or bear child; but prepare for death -- or for flight. Aegnor has no trust (nor have I) in this siege of Angband that it will last long; and then what will become of this land? If his heart rules, he would have wished to take thee and flee far away, east or south, forsaking his kin, and thine. Love and loyalty hold him to his. What of thee to thine? Thou hast said thyself that there is no escape by flight within the bounds of the world.'

'For one year, one day, of the flame I would have given all: kin, youth, and hope itself: adaneth I am,' said Andreth.

'That he knew,' said Finrod; 'and he withdrew and did not grasp what lay to his hand: elda he is. For such barters are paid for in anguish that cannot be guessed, until it comes, and in ignorance rather than in courage the Eldar judge that they are made.

'Nay, adaneth, if any marriage can be between our kindred and thine, then it shall be for some high purpose of Doom. Brief it will be and hard at the end. Yea, the least cruel fate that could befall would that death should soon end it.'

'But the end is always cruel -- for Men,' said Andreth. 'I would not have troubled him, when my short youth was spent. I would not have hobbled as a hag after his bright feet, when I could no longer run beside him!'

'Maybe not,' said Finrod. 'So you feel now. But do you think of him? He would not have run before thee. He would have stayed at thy side and upheld thee. Then pity thou woudst have had in every hour, pity inescapable. He would not have thee so shamed.

[Sister Golden Hair]

'Andreth adaneth, the life and love of the Eldar dwells much in memory; and we (if not ye) would rather have a memory that is fair but unfinished than one that goes on to a grievous end. Now he will ever remember thee in the sun of morning, and that last evening by the water of Aeluin in which he saw thy face mirrored with a star caught in thy hair -- ever, until the North-wind brings the night of his flame. Yea, and after that, sitting in the House of Mandos in the Halls of Awaiting until the end of Arda.'

'And what shall I remember?' said she. 'And when I go to what halls shall I come? To a darkness in which even the memory of the Sharp Flame shall be quenched? Even the memory of rejection. That at least.'

Finrod sighed and stood up. 'The Eldar have no healing words for such thoughts, adaneth,' he said. 'But would you wish that Elves and Men had never met? Is the light of the flame, which otherwise you would never have seen, of no worth even now? You believe yourself scorned? Put away at least that thought, which comes out of the Darkness, and then our speech together will not have been wholly in vain. Farewell!'

Darkness fell in the room. He took her hand in the light of the fire. "Wither go you?" she said.

"North away." he said: "to the swords, and the siege, and the walls of defence - that yet for a while in Beleriand rivers may run clean, leaves spring, and birds build their nests ere Night comes."

"Will he be there, bright and tall, and the wind in his hair? Tell him. Tell him not to be reckless. Not to seek danger beyond need."

I will tell him," said Finrod. "But I might as well tell thee not to weep. He is a warrior Andreth, and a spirit of wrath. In every stroke that he deals he sees the enemy who long ago did thee this hurt."

But you are not for Arda. Whither you go may you find light. Await us there, my brother - and me."

[Lalaith]

Thank you, sister golden hair.
I'll read it as soon as I have enough time to read it carefully (as english is not my first language it will take me some time).
I plan to read the 12 late published books - the History of Middle-earth series and actually I've already read The Book of Lost tales I and II. But unfortunately I think that they are not available in german so I have to read them in english. That will be tough.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Lalaith
Thank you, sister golden hair.
I'll read it as soon as I have enough time to read it carefully (as english is not my first language it will take me some time).
I plan to read the 12 late published books - the History of Middle-earth series and actually I've already read The Book of Lost tales I and II. But unfortunately I think that they are not available in german so I have to read them in english. That will be tough.

Seems to me that you do very well with English. I guarentee you that your abilities with English are far better than my abillity to read or speak German. I hated taking foriegn language in school. I had four years of French, and flunked out.

[Inderjit Sanghera]

Turin and Finduilas and Aegnor and Andreth were beautiful, yet tragic love stories as well.