The Idea of Slash

[Yazad]

Originally posted by Finmandos12
You're the one adhering to what one's own mind wants to "hear". Tolkien was a strong Christian, naturally he would not hide a homosexual subcurrent in his book. The reason it seems like Sam is gay in some parts of the book is the national mind nowadays. People are obsessed with sex and try to put it into everything.

Ummmmmm, I'm not exactly sure what being a strong Christian has to do (necessarily) with homosexuality. I do understand that being a fundamentalist might have to do with it. Tolkien was not, IMO, a fundamentalist.

Further, strong Christians also have a lot of feelings about murder as well, but that didn't keep Professor Tolkien from including it in his story.

Again, I'm not saying that Frodo and Sam were (necessarily) gay, I'm just saying that it's not outrageous for someone to interpret it that way.

Lastly, interpretation of art has very little to do, IMO, with what the author thought. If there is only one interpretation a person can get from a piece of creative work then that work is not art, it is propaganda. So whether or not Tolkien wrote in a homosexual subtext to the Lord of the Rings, does not mean that said subtext isn't there.

All that said, I didn't mean to imply that there's some massive underlying homosexual conspiracy in the story or anything. I just meant that I think to flatly deny any possibility of it is being rather fascistic with interpretation.

When reading "The Inklings" by Humphrey Carpeter, you definitely get the feeling that the sort of male love that Tolkien, Lewis and friends had is something that we really don't quite have in our modern society, at least it's something that I haven't much witnessed, or noticed.

Yazad

[LuthienTinuviel]

ahhh HERE IT IS!

i dug thru the acrchives of almost every page me and my sister have looked at in the past 12 months, and i found it, a good example of slash.

personally, it's not for me, but in some of these stories, i liked the plot of like three of them, and simply skiped over the useless smut. most of them are REALLY REALLY odd though. tread carefully.

PG-13 and NC-17 rated site, if it gets deleted, then pm me if you REALLY want it:

ahh, against my better judgement, just pm me.

[Firhithiel Greenleaf]

Originally posted by Yazad
I often get ticked at everyone's use of the word "gay" in this forum (entmoot) to indicate "bad" or "lame" or "stupid". It really ticks me off. I'd think that a group of folks literate enough to be interested in Tolkien's works would be a little more respectful and tolerant.

All that said: What's slash fiction???

Yazad

I do too...it seems that *everyone* in this world uses the word "gay" as meaning "stupid" or "dumb", or when a person (usually a boy) does something weird or "girly". My cousin gets called gay a lot by his brothers because he likes some of the stuff I do. ((I'm a girl, obviously)). And slash fiction is fanfiction that's slash; slash means m/m or f/f relationships. And someone said that I need to defend my topic...I don't really mind if this gets bumped, I was just noticing that Frodo and Sam do have a very good relationship.

I was not saying they should go get rowdy or something...because I don't really want them to; I just think they should make their relationship a bit... different That's all. Because obviously they love each other a whole lot, and if they admitted that it went a *little* over the "friendship" line, it would be easier for everyone.

--F. G.--

[Elfhelm]

But it's only over the "friendship line" of us, not necessarily of them. Or am I wasting time trying to explain that our American values are not universal?

[Finmandos12]

Ummmmmm, I'm not exactly sure what being a strong Christian has to do (necessarily) with homosexuality. I do understand that being a fundamentalist might have to do with it. Tolkien was not, IMO, a fundamentalist.

In the Bible, it says homosexuality is wrong. Since Tolkien was a Christian, he would not have one of the good guys be gay.

I just meant that I think to flatly deny any possibility of it is being rather fascistic with interpretation.

Really? How is it possible to be "An advocate or adherent of facism" with interpretation?

[Wayfarer]

I often wonder why people look so frantically for erotic and sexual overtones where the don't exist and yet manage to ignore the achingly beautiful romance that tolkien actually wrote about. Get a copy of the lays, people. Beren and Luthien's story does to this kind of smut what the LOTR did to novels as a whole-completely and utterly demolishes it.

Originally posted by Yazad
When reading "The Inklings" by Humphrey Carpeter, you definitely get the feeling that the sort of male love that Tolkien, Lewis and friends had is something that we really don't quite have in our modern society, at least it's something that I haven't much witnessed, or noticed.

You might be interested in reading 'the four loves', by CS lewis. In it, he gives what is perhaps the best exposition of 'love' in the past century. And I would say that he paints a very vivid picture of what is missing from our society in modern times.

[Elfhelm]

fuggetaboutit

[Dúnedain]

Originally posted by Finmandos12
Tolkien was a strong Christian, naturally he would not hide a homosexual subcurrent in his book.

Catholic priests are strong christians too, but we all see what is going on with that...

I am Catholic so I am allowed to make fun of them


On the topic of this, I see your points, and I think the point is taken, however I don't think there are gender based relationships between the same genders within Tolkien's writing. With that I mean the way Tolkien has created his world, the world is without the bias and standards that in our world make such a basis for things of this nature. I think with the overall feelings towards homosexual or heterosexual relationships in our culture, that when we read lines put forth, such as those at question we are geared to assume certain qualities of the characters and "how they are". However, in Tolkien's world the characters interact without second guessing what they are saying or meaning, because the feelings they grow or have for one another are true to what they are and can freely discern on a level playing field without the fear of having to "watch how they act" out of fear of how they are portrayed.

So, with that being said, I think it is a result of our own culture for such things to be read into so deeply. Could those undercurrents be there, yes, of course they could, however I don't think they are for the reasonings I put forth above...

[Yazad]

Originally posted by Finmandos12
In the Bible, it says homosexuality is wrong. Since Tolkien was a Christian, he would not have one of the good guys be gay.

Wow! shudders I don't think I'd like to continue that discussion, at least not here.

Originally posted by Finmandos12
Really? How is it possible to be "An advocate or adherent of facism" with interpretation?

Meaning that you're limiting the scope of what you will allow to be interpreted into the books. You're saying (not you necessarily, but 'one') that even though there is evidence that this *could* be the case, it is not. PERIOD. I think that's kinda fascistic in interpretation, especially of a piece of art. Just my opinion, though, I guess, kinda.

Originally posted by Wayfarer
I often wonder why people look so frantically for erotic and sexual overtones where the don't exist

I don't really think that we (I) are really frantically looking for any such overtones. Personally I like my sexless Tolkien. I don't think that every story has to have sex or even romance involved in it. Some stories, sure, but not all. Just like not all stories need to have violence in them.

Anyway, sex isn't the point here (as in the act of sex) or eroticism. Gah, I think I'm gonna have to capitulate as well.

Originally posted by Wayfarer
You might be interested in reading 'the four loves', by CS lewis. In it, he gives what is perhaps the best exposition of 'love' in the past century. And I would say that he paints a very vivid picture of what is missing from our society in modern times.

I am very interested in it, and will try to do so soon. It was discussed at significant length in "The Inklings", but I hadn't gotten around to it yet. I will try to soon!

Yazad

[Dúnedain]

Originally posted by Finmandos12
In the Bible, it says homosexuality is wrong. Since Tolkien was a Christian, he would not have one of the good guys be gay.

That is interpretive....

[Dúnedain]

Originally posted by Yazad
All that said, I didn't mean to imply that there's some massive underlying homosexual conspiracy in the story or anything.

LIES!! You did too!!












lol j/k

[Elfhelm]

Let's try a different word than fascistic. I don't think it's a very exact term, and people get easily offended by it.

I'd hate to see the thread get diverted.

Affection is not sex. I think that's a very important distinction. And the affection in Tolkien runs very deep. Can we stay with that, and the idea of "love" as C.S.Lewis and other Inklings saw it?

As far as creating non-characteristic scenes for the characters, stick to Kirk/Spock and leave Samwise out of it, that's my opinion.

[Starr Polish]

I, as a Christian and a person in general, do not like Tolkien slash, because to me it is completely out of character. I don't go around reviewing slash writers and insulting them, because it is almost always clearly labled "slash", so I simply avoid it.

I will admit I have read a story with what was called "implied slash" that was well-written, and the implications were very subtle.

I can see why people would think there are homosexual subtexts in this novel, but personally I don't see them that way. The love between Frodo and Sam is so deep and true that there is no way it could be romantic love. It's a type of love that I don't think can be explained, and I highly doubt it's seen every hundred years in human beings. It reaches far beyond friendship, romantic or even brotherly love into what you could call "true love." "True love" can be (and is, according to me, in this case) platonic.

I agree that today's society is obsessed with sex, and tries to find it in everything and anything. Even the movies have been "sexed up" a bit (Arwen/Aragorn), though hardly explicitly.

[Firhithiel Greenleaf]

Originally posted by Elfhelm
I'd hate to see the thread get diverted.

Affection is not sex. I think that's a very important distinction. And the affection in Tolkien runs very deep. Can we stay with that, and the idea of "love" as C.S.Lewis and other Inklings saw it?

Exactly. . .to tell the truth, I'm starting to regret posting this. Is there no one who enjoys this kind of relationship? No smut, no sex, not even any kissing, just looking in someone's eyes and not being afraid of anything and loving that person. . . maybe Tolkien already describes that. In fact, I think he does. What I'm trying to say is that. . . um, what am I trying to get to? How about I rephrase it, yes, that's what I'll do. What I'm trying to say is Frodo and Sam do love each other. Obviously; how can you (Sam) be so loyal to someone (Frodo) without loving that person? And Frodo would have to love Sam, after his loyalty and all he's done for him. . . .

But I don't want any stuff going on between them, I just don't think it's right. Oh yeah, I was trying to say that I suppose their relationship is the way you think about it, in a way. I mean, the basic point is, They Love Each Other, but what my idea of great "slash" is, it's the way you think about their love. . . maybe Tolkien wrote the story without more explanation on their "relationship" ((no offence meant to Mr. Tolkien )) so that people could re-imagine this kind of thing?

I mean, isn't that what good authors do?? They explain things, but they leave some things blank so that their readers can imagine these things.

This being done, I think I'll go now. . .before I bore you all. ((If I haven't already.)) If I've confused anyone/everyone, and no doubt I have, make no hesitation to reply! I'll try to recap. But for now, gotta run.

--F. G.--

[crickhollow]

Originally posted by Firhithiel Greenleaf
I was not saying they should go get rowdy or something...because I don't really want them to; I just think they should make their relationship a bit... different That's all. Because obviously they love each other a whole lot, and if they admitted that it went a *little* over the "friendship" line, it would be easier for everyone.

--F. G.--

Please do us a favor and read Beowulf. maybe then you will get a sense of the warrior-brother bond between men that Tolkien uses in his epic--remember he based a lot of it on Old English/Anglo-Saxon culture.

Slash fic--ugh

[Huan]

As another straight intruder into this thread and one who's new to internet-speak, if that's what it is, is "slash" something people are saying now? My philologist side wants to know what y'all mean by "slash."

[Artanis]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
Indeed. I have seen tons of it at the Henneth Annun-Stories by Author site. I believe I have seen your fanfic there Artanis.

OMG, I'm sooo slow. Now I understand what you were saying. Stop mixing threads like this SGH, it's too complicated for me.

[Starr Polish]

Originally posted by Huan
As another straight intruder into this thread and one who's new to internet-speak, if that's what it is, is "slash" something people are saying now? My philologist side wants to know what y'all mean by "slash."

"Slash" is a term for sexual relationships between a man and a man or a woman and a woman. It's popular in fan fiction, which is writing a story with already created characters and places to fill in gaps, expand things or create "what if" situations. It is called slash because the relationships are usually shown in summaries by putting a slash between two characters names.

I know waay too much about fanfiction.

[cassiopeia]

First of all, I'd like to say that I don't think there is any homosexual relationships in the Lord of the Rings. Frodo and Sam love each other, but are not in love with each other. Having said that, I do read slash fiction, but I know to separate them from Tolkien's works. Most of it is pretty bad, but some slash is very good and actually has a plot. Concering RPS (slash involving real people, like Viggo/Orlando), I don't really like that very much. Some of these people are married and obviously straight! If anyone wants a really good Aragorn/Legolas fic can PM me. You should probably be over 18.

[Tawfret Melee]

I guess I'm another straight intruder, but this thread is so peaceful and under control (compared to any other topic like this I've seen eslewhere) that I thought I might be safe to comment.

I remember reading through the Two Towers for the first time, and raising my eyebrow at a few parts thinking, "Nobody told me that there was slash in this!" It was the first thing that came to my mind, although I wasn't looking for it or anything. It's just social conditioning in my opinion.

At first I was kind of shocked, but then I took it in stride, reminded myself that I really was enjoying the story, and eventually viewed the Frodo/Sam relationship in the way most people do in this thread: pure, platonic affection.

Just for the record though, the storyline is so strong and beautiful that I was perfectly happy to see the 'love thing' go either way, because I could only imagine Tolkein handling it artistically, just like the rest of the books.

So, I don't mind the slash interpretation that you see so often in fanfics and such. I feel that the characters are well-written enough to allow fanfic authors room to explore that side of their personalities. And after all, why not? Lots of people want to read it.

On the other hand, though, it's a bit amusing when I find it absolutely nessecary to write a non-slash disclaimer in the discription of a parody I wrote called 'The TRUTH About Frodo.' I mean, slash is the first thing you'd think of when you read that title, right?