Offshoot discussion of "what religion are you" thread

[Eruviel Greenleaf]

Looks like I'm headed straight for Hell then. Joy.

I just dropped by this thread because I was headed toward what looked like a minor 'spark skirmish' with Wayfarer on the other religion thread. Perhaps it will be interesting, neh?

[Earniel]

Looks like I'm headed straight for Hell then. Joy.

Wait for me, it looks I'm heading the same way.

I believe that anyone who does not know God and have a personal relationship with Jesus will spend the rest of eternity in Hell, which I believe is not so much a physical place, but more of a spiritual place; a place totally removed from God, and while some people say they don't care about 'being with God', they will when they find out how it feels to be away from forever, in eternal damnation.

I don't want to offend any one but this is one of the reasons why I have a thing against religion. The mere assumption that one who doesn't believe in a divine being can't be a good person makes my blood boil. It sets one person higher than another simply on a basis of what one believes. The inquisition held those believes, and we all know how 'good' they were. Did they go to heaven? If so I'm not sure, I want to go there too.

And I believe this assumption is in essence a very un-christian thing to believe. According to the Bible Jesus didn't look down on people who didn't believe nor did he in my memory threaten them with hell. But he pitied those that held on to the letter of the Word of God without looking at the meaning of it.

[Andúril]

RÃ*an:
My answers:
(1) - I already did explain why I thought your reply was irrational - the explanation was at the end of the sentence! Didn't you see it?. If I write a sentence, would you please consider the sentence as a whole (or at least quote it as a whole), since I wrote it as I did for a good reason.

Calling a misrepresentation is not an indication of irrational argumentation. You misrepresented my position (set up a straw man), and I called you on it. I admit, however, that my tone could have been less harsh.

The structure of your statement indicated that you thought my reply was irrational because:

• I used an "insulting" expression, and
• I failed to explain it.

I responded by saying that I didn't see anything insulting about it, and that the reason for its usage was obvious, but I did so by decontructing the argument into its premises and conclusions. I have since elaborated.

Additionally, what might be deemed an unexplained insult is not necessarily irrational, since, for instance in our case, the "insult" was essentially created by your subjective interpretation, and the lack of explication was an oversight of mine, for reasons already stipulated.

Therefore, either you will provide some other reason(s) to support your claim of irrationality, or you will drop it.

More:
(2) - I felt that it was insulting because I didn't feel that my statement was logically weak (and I still don't) and I feel that even if you thought so, there are more polite ways to indicate it. However, your manner of speaking is certainly up to you.

Two things:

• Your statement was "logically weak", or fallacious. Your post contained the following:

  What, you know that there's not a God?

  Firstly, this is a misrepresentation of my position, and secondly, I have no idea how you came to conclude that it was my position, since nothing in this thread indicates explicitly nor implicitly that "I know that there's not a God".
• I agree that I might have been less impolite. This has become difficult after having to explain my actual position to a legion of individuals who have made the same mistake as you have - a now tedious and frustrating task.

More:
(3) - It is not obvious to me (and I believe to many others, too). Would you please explain your reasoning.

I have already done so - in this post and before. Were you not aware that "straw man" is merely a term used in logical argumentation to indicate misrepresentation? Had your straw man progressed to a developed stage (which it had not), I might have found myself having to defend strong atheism. Luckily I nipped it in the bud.

[Coney]

Originally posted by Shadowfax
Coney:

In answer to your questions here are my answers, as a Christian, based on what I have found in the Bible:

1- What happens to non-Christians when they die?
I believe that anyone who does not know God and have a personal relationship with Jesus will spend the rest of eternity in Hell, which I believe is not so much a physical place, but more of a spiritual place; a place totally removed from God, and while some people say they don't care about 'being with God', they will when they find out how it feels to be away from forever, in eternal damnation.

2- Are we soul-less or are our souls cast into Limbo?
I believe that everyone has a soul that right now lives on earth in a body of flesh, and that when we die, all souls will get a new body, and will go either to Heaven or Hell; there is no "Limbo" or "Purgatory".

I hope this helps you Coney, and I would love to see you one day in Heaven (God says that we will be able to recognize each other in Heaven!). And if you have any more questions feel free to ask, and if other Christians want to elaborate on what I've said, feel free too, because I know there is much more to answering these questions.

A quick response to Rian first: Absolutely no rush Rian, I'm not planning on popping my clogs anytime soon

To Shadowfax: Thanks for the reply

Initial response:

Secondary response:

After a little composure: Blimey, that seems a bit harsh! Either spend your life in servitude to God or suffer eternally in the fiery pits of Hell Ach well, Hell it is then I don't really subscribe to the Christian religion..........I certainly don't respond well to the do-or-be-damned attitude of this (that is no way intended to be a personal attack btw).

I hope this helps you Coney, and I would love to see you one day in Heaven (God says that we will be able to recognize each other in Heaven!).

Yeah, there are a few folks I'd like to catch up with in heaven as well, I was planning on sneaking in for a while, I'll be the one with the singed clothes and soot covered halo

I don't want to offend any one but this is one of the reasons why I have a thing against religion. The mere assumption that one who doesn't believe in a divine being can't be a good person makes my blood boil.

I agree.

I also wonder that if your not a believer in God, and your doomed to eternal Hell anyway, what is the point of living a decent and honest life..........might as well go rob a bank and live it up while you can (j/k)

It certainly explains a lot why Christians were so hated in times past. "Love our God or burn in Hell" .......... "Uh huh, tell it to the lions".

EG + Eärniel.........I'll save you folks a warm seat beside the fire

[Elf Girl]

How did I manage to post by quoting myself without noticing it?

It was an accident, no, I was not trying to make any particular point.

[Finmandos12]

that seems a bit harsh! Either spend your life in servitude to God or suffer eternally in the fiery pits of Hell Ach well, Hell it is then I don't really subscribe to the Christian religion..........I certainly don't respond well to the do-or-be-damned attitude.

Time for an analogy. Say that you are walking down the street, and there is an open manhole in your path that you don't see. I say, "Watch out, there's a manhole in your path! Move out of the way or you will fall into the sewer!" You respond by saying, "That seems a bit harsh! Either move out of the way or fall into the sewer! I certainly don't respond well to the do-or-fall-into-the-sewer attitude."

When the Bible tell you that to go to heaven you must trust Jesus as your saviour, its not being mean. Its not saying that you are a bad person (no one, including Christians, is perfect). Its just warning you of something.

[Coney]

Interesting analogy Finmandos

But one can step either side, jump over or even walk backwards from "the sewer" and still not end up in the crud Christianity does not seem to give this option......it seems to me to be a choice of "come to me or wallow in the excrement".

When the Bible tell you that to go to heaven you must trust Jesus as your saviour, its not being mean.

Now that I can see the common sense in Believe in The Christ and Heaven will be your destination.......yep, that seems a perfectly reasonable thing (if Gods heaven is your desire). It's the "if you do not believe/respect/worship/wotever me" then you will descend into Hell bit I'm having trouble getting my head around. I couldn't even give respect (although I see no reason why He cannot exist) to a being that would give such a fate to any soul that does not pay him/her/it reverance?

[Finmandos12]

I couldn't even give respect (although I see no reason why He cannot exist) to a being that would give such a fate to any soul that does not pay him/her/it reverance?

God doesn't give anyone that fate. He warns them (in the Bible) of what could happen to them. God wants everyone to come to heaven, but they can't come in unless they have repented of their sin and trusted Jesus. Oh, and by the way, its "he".

[Erawyn]

God doesn't give anyone that fate. He warns them (in the Bible) of what could happen to them. God wants everyone to come to heaven, but they can't come in unless they have repented of their sin and trusted Jesus. Oh, and by the way, its "he".

*shudders* This is going to get people mad at me, but, if he wants everyone to go to Heaven and be happy, why should he care if they spend all their life thinking about him or not? What kind of God would be so insecure that they would have to punish someone who didn't spend their entire life kissing their ass?

Anyways I am a non religious Jew (well me mum is Jewish so therefore I am) I guess I'm agnostic, because I'm not ruling out the possibility that there is a "higher power" or something.

[Coney]

*shudders* This is going to get people mad at me, but, if he wants everyone to go to Heaven and be happy, why should he care if they spend all their life thinking about him or not? What kind of God would be so insecure that they would have to punish someone who didn't spend their entire life kissing their ass?

Just what I've been thinking for the last few hours.........although I couldn't have put it quite so eloquently

Free will seems to have a few conditions attached to it.

Why the heck should anyone respect a god who treats people with so much disdain?

*expects to be turned into a pillar of salt at any moment*

[Wayfarer]

I'd like to know where you get the Idea that punishment and ass kissing are somehow involved-but that's common enought that I won't bother.

Actually, what scripture makes clear is that anyone who wants to spend eternity in the joy-filled presence of God has the chance. Anyone who spends eternity in hell is there ultimately because they wish it.

The simple step is yours to take.

As for ass kissing and otehr behavioral issues-I had thought it was settled that no ammount of effort on your part could save you, and no amount of sin on your part could prevent you from being saved.

'nuff said.

[Coney]

Actually, what scripture makes clear is that anyone who wants to spend eternity in the joy-filled presence of God has the chance. Anyone who spends eternity in hell is there because they wish it.

So.....if you wish for neither ......where does the soul go?

[Wayfarer]

Since heaven is communion with God, and Hell is Seperation from God, that is an invalid choice. One cannot be neither Saved nor Not Saved. It is a logical impossibility.

"Nonsense does not stop being nonsense simply because you ascribe it to God."

[Finmandos12]

If you don't think that you get to heaven by trusting Christ, how do you think that you get to heaven? Being good? Hoping the good deeds outweigh the bad?

shudders* This is going to get people mad at me, but, if he wants everyone to go to Heaven and be happy, why should he care if they spend all their life thinking about him or not? What kind of God would be so insecure that they would have to punish someone who didn't spend their entire life kissing their ass?

Have you listened to a single thing I said?! Respond to my comments or don't respond at all.

[Coney]

Originally posted by Wayfarer
Since heaven is communion with God, and Hell is Seperation from God, that is an invalid choice. One cannot be neither Saved nor Not Saved. It is a logical impossibility.

"Nonsense does not stop being nonsense simply because you ascribe it to God."

Hmm, interesting.

Yet is the soul not immortal?........therefore, by definition, invulnerable? Would be a shame if there were only two choices...the penthouse or the boilerhouse.......so to speak

FTR I don't ascribe any religion as non-sense........it is after all a personal choice but I do (did) believe in examining (questioning) any form of religion until I decide the path for my(self) soul.

Another question: I have read that Hell is simply a time of redemption...........when the sins are "purged" from the soul then Heaven (and therefore God) will accept you......yet Hell is often described as "eternal".......any comments on this?

[Rían]

*is itching to get in on this conversation but is in the midst of packing one kid off for an overnight trip and cooking dinner for the remaining family members *

[Erawyn]

ave you listened to a single thing I said?! Respond to my comments or don't respond at all.

Ok, that's what I've gotten (not just from you) but from talking to various people about religion. I wasn't repsonding just to you, but more to the Christian idea that unless you are religious, you are basically a bad person in God's eyes and will not get into Heaven, which obviously, I uh disagree with.

*expects to be turned into a pillar of salt at any moment*

Yeah me too

[Coney]

As for ass kissing and otehr behavioral issues-I had thought it was settled that no ammount of effort on your part could save you, and no amount of sin on your part could prevent you from being saved.

By this do you mean that only Faith will "save" a soul?.........Should we accept Blind Faith?........Live a sinfull life and cry for confession at St Peter's feet?

Surely you statement simply means "Blessed if you do (believe) and damned if you don't"........Salvation for those who lived a life for God........Salvation also for those who (regardless of their sin) turned to God........and to buggery with those who denied God

[Wayfarer]

Yet is the soul not immortal?........therefore, by definition, invulnerable? Would be a shame if there were only two choices...the penthouse or the boilerhouse.......so to speak

And I ask you-WHY is it a shame? When everlasting joy and bliss is there for the having why wish for something less?

It seems coney, that you have insisted in proving my point. Some people insist on having something less than paradise-and get it. But it is an all or nothing proposition.

"It's wisdom to recognize necessity, when all other courses have been weighed, though as folly it may appear to those who cling to false hope."

Ok, that's what I've gotten (not just from you) but from talking to various people about religion. I wasn't repsonding just to you, but the idea that unless you are religious, you are basically a bad person in God's eyes and will not get into Heaven, which obviously, I uh disagree with.

And we agree with your dissagreement, to be sure. That's why it troubles us when you bring up ideas like that- because I for one spend a great deal of time correcting those kind of misconceptions among churchgoers.

In fact, I would say you are excused for getting that impression, because there are many americans who believe just what you stated. But they are not followers of christ, whatever label the give themselves.

Harsh words? Perhaps. But I often feel as Gandalf did:

"The wise speak only of what they know, Grima son of Galmod. A witless worm have you become. Therefore be silent, and keep your forked tongue behind your teeth. I have not passed through fire and death to bandy crooked words with a serving-man till the lightning falls."

[Coney]

And I ask you-WHY is it a shame? When everlasting joy and bliss is there for the having why wish for something less?

Variety Wafarer, variety. Everlasting joy and bliss may be fun for a little while.......but they are also accesable here on planet mud. I, personally could not envisage joy and bliss while under the rule, and worshipping, the Hebrew/Christian God....I've had a bellyfull of living under other peoples rule already (this doesn't mean that I seek an afterlife of rape, pillage and murder btw)

It seems coney, that you have insisted in proving my point. Some people insist on having something less than paradise-and get it.

It really depends on what your (personal) definition of paradise is.

Mine is certainly not spending eternity in reverance of some "being" that judges so harshly.

But it is an all or nothing proposition.

Now there is the bite.......all or nothing....black and white. Ach, how can anyone respect anything that thinks in such a small-minded way.