Women in The Silmarillion

Correct me if I'm wrong, but want to answer someone's (don't remember who) questions as to when in the movies Arwen is going to appear. Early in Fellowship, she is taking Glorfindel's place in Flight to the Ford. This really annoys me because Glorfindel is one of my favorite minor characters.
She is also going to be the one that leads the Dunedain (sp?) of the north rather than Halbarad and the sons of Elrond. Again annoyance because I like Elladan and Elrohir.

I'm am glad that they are going to have Eomer though, originally Eowyn and Eomer were going to be merged into one character.

Arrrrgh!

Is there to actually be all that much hack&slash action for Arwen? Or is she just dressed that way? And will she fight to an Aerosmith soundtrack?

Glad to hear Eowyn and Eomer aren't being fused. It could have gotten very confusing for him/her on the field of Pellanor.

And on the off-topic of Popular Feminism, it is, in my humble opinion, an outlook twisted by insecurity and pride and a need for personal vindication and made possible by prosperity.

It is not so long ago in this corner of the world, and is still the case in many places, that the roles of men and women through life are very different as a matter of necessity. Things were not always so easy, and may not always be so, or may become easier still. But we have enough cash flow and opportunity that women need not depend on men, nor men on women. Popular Feminism hung its hat on the legitimate complaints and inequalities suffered by women in a civilization rising through the Industrial Age. But it also hung a cloak that covered an agenda that was anti-masculinity and anti-patriarchy. Not satisfied with freedom and equality, there is a goal of domination as well.

And that's my job! :rollin:

"anti-masculinity"... ? hehe...

anyways...

The "Andrea Dworkin" brand of feminism is quite vindictive, I agree.
But feminism does have many brands. And "Popular Feminism" isn't just the "Dworkin" kind, although only the loudest and most shocking brand attracts the attention of the people who want (or can't help but) to see the one tree hiding the forest.

As for anti-patriarchy... I see no wrong about that, as long as it ain't replaced by the also one-sided "matriarchy".

But as for the movie, I don't think Political Correctness would be much involved in the decision to put more power into female characters: it's probably more a question of dollar$, of capturing more audience; and also a nice way to reduce the number of important characters by merging them...

I can't really quibble with your stipulations and clarifications.

Except for that "patriarchy" crack!

I need only point at the legions of swooning female voters ready to make Al Gore Leader of the Free World because he kissed Tipper so passionately. That's why trial lawyers want all-female juries if they can get them!

And with that, I rest the case for patriarchy as, imperfect, but superior to matriarchy or personarchy or anarchy. Or any other Arky. Especially the ones in the White House today! :lol:

Well... Your post does speak for itself.
It even speaks for me.

What a nice view of women you have.

I bet many Democrats would like you to go into politics: they would have greater chances of winning.

Maybe all those legions of swooning women voters are ready to make Al Gore the Leader of the Free World because of how Tipper kissed him so passionately. Which makes just as much sense.......

Should women not be allowed to vote then....especially if the only thing that they base their vote on is how a candidate looks or how sexy they are?

Right!

Like the good ol' days: women couldn't vote, staying at home raising our children and cooking our food, while the slaves in the cotton field were raising money for us.

Ahhh! La joie de vivre!

(And now the Hobbit hobble to his chair, takes out a 78" vynil record of the famous singing duet Charlton Heston and Ronald Reagan and puts it on the turntable, and plans listening to it while reading old newsletters of the PTL Club...)

(The little hobbit sighed and realized that this arrogant young generation would have to learn, one way or another, just like every arrogant young generation before it. He hoped this generation was not determined to choose the hard way.)

I notice a pattern with the Left. They usually cannot debate an issue on its merits, they must resort to ad hominem arguments. Which, of course, are not arguments at all. Lighten up! I'm (half) joking!

The For-What-It's-Worth Department

***I actually was acquainted with 78 rpm vinyl recordings! I got my first radio job back when you spun 45's on felt turntables.

***Charleton Heston was with Dr. King back when that meant something. Liberals loved him, but that was before they wanted to take his guns.

***Ronald Reagan was a union leader and a supporter of Roosevelt. Liberals loved him, but that was before they wanted him to become a Communist.

***The vast majority of Southerners did not own slaves. They lived then as we still do, by the sweat of the brow, toiling under the burden of Yankee taxation and regulation.



I hope no one seriously thinks that I believe women should not vote!

But I think that a lot of the Old Time Right Wingers, the ones who fought extending the Vote to women, if they could, would sit bolt upright in their dusty graves, point a bony finger, laugh mockingly and say, "We told you so!"

I think the demographics of the election and the reelection of Bill Clinton, and the nature of the support for Al Gore, prove my point. The big to-do over The Kiss is simply an eloquent expression of the Nature of things. There are a lot of empty headed, astrology believing, Oprahfied women out there who have no business casting a vote to determine the destiny of Humanity. But I don't think all men should vote either.

But Equality demands otherwise, so I guess the dissolution from Republic to Democracy to Bureaucracy to Tyranny is inevitable. Perhaps the American Experiment is doomed to fail and we must all submit to what has always proven inevitable. I guess living under Royalty is the best way after all.

Our society, like every prosperous society before it, becomes lost, mincing words and developing arguments and forgetting the lessons bought by the lives of uncounted generations past.

In some mound or cave far away, lies the dust of another Ancient Right Winger whose wraith moans low, "I told you not to give them shoes..."

(And with that, the little hobbit blew a ring of politically incorrect smoke and called for the Mrs to fetch him a glass of wine. She called back for the ninnyhammer to get his own, and to fetch her one, too. Grumbling, he heaved his old bones out of the chair, turned off the Victrola, and headed for the kitchen. On the way, he wondered if anyone remembered still that he wanted to know if Arwen was going to be engaged in any serious Xena-like activity or not.)

She's going to be an archer if that answers your question. Which probably means nothing real Xena-like, just some pin-cushion orcs.

"Ronald Reagan... Liberals loved him, but that was before they wanted him to become a Communist"

So, for you in general Liberals=Communists...
You're quite frightening you know...
'

"[The Left] usually cannot debate an issue on its merits, they must resort to ad hominem arguments."

"Oprahfied women", "astrology believing", "swooning female voters [voting for Gore over a kiss]", etc...
You call those reasonable arguments?

I "play" your "game", that's all. Blame yourself.


"There are a lot of empty headed, astrology believing, Oprahfied women out there who have no business casting a vote to determine the destiny of Humanity. But I don't think all men should vote either"

-How about empty headed, god-believing men?
-The destiny of Humanity? Wow. I thought that Americans thinking they were the center of the world was a myth...
-Hmmm... geniocraty?


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J.Untel

I created a thread in GM to continue this discussion, please post your comments there to keep this thread pure. Thank you.

"I read in some press release or other that the reason Arwen had to be updated for the upcoming movies is because Tolkien's portrayal of women in LOTR is "unenlightened" in general and anti-feminist in particular. Perhaps -- "


There's Political Correctness in The Lord of the Rings film now!

I am really getting tired of political correctness ruining everything these days.

Women aren't as physicaly strong as men why can't some women just accept it. I've had enough of it.

It is only recently that women can be equal in society because mental ability has become more important than physical ability. But in the past ( medieval e.t.c ) physical streangth was how power was gained that is why women weren't equal to men. Tolkien's world is set in a similar regime and now 21st century beliefs is going to interrupt that great concept and it has no place there.


I am not a sexist I am just a realist.

In other words: Buffy the Vampire Slayer just wouldn't happen.

Excuse me Darth, but was your Ringwraith astride a cow just now?

Speaking of political correctness, will they allow the characters to smoke? I mean it does have bearing to the plot... Merry and Pippin discover Hornblower tobacco at Isengard, and Aragorn wonders if Saruman's henchmen are up to something in the Shire. And King Theoden's astonishment at Hobbits that "spout smoke from their mouths" and his curiosity about "Tobold the Old and his herb-lore", which makes him very friendly to Merry.

Yes, there'll be as much smoking in the movie as is possible or necessary to best follow the books, reportedly pictures of Baggins ancestors (painted ofcourse) on the walls of Bag-End even have them smoking. Some think there aught to be a disclaimer at the beginning about it, or in the credits, or PJ himself should say something about it. Michael Martinez has noted Peter Jackson doesn't really try to be politically correct, he just goes with what he thinks will work (although he said that in context with why Orcs will not be swart).

Err, what does "swart" mean anyway? I never thought of asking before.

It means you have dark skin, if you're swart or swarthy.

muahahha

So.... "swart" could mean anything from Indian, African, Polynesian, Southeast Asian, Mexican, Hawaiian, Aborigine....

Or did Tolkien have a more specific shade in mind? But never mind.

Actually most Orcs were sallow (a sickly green-greyish yellow). Some were swarthy, some weren't.

As far as I know he only said Orcs were in fact degrading and corrupt versions of the Mongol-types.