Question about Arwen & Glorfindel....

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Falagar
Which chapter of PoME is it in?

It is in Chapter 13, Last Writings, Of Glorfindel, Cirdan, and other matters.

[Falagar]

*should have guessed*
Thanks!

[Dúnedain]

I could have sworn I read somewhere else that Tolkien said that the Glorfindel's were different Elves and not the same, I will see if I can find it....

[Dúnedain]

Here it is, it is from the Encylopedia of Arda, and they put together a good point, so I guess it is a debate like the Balrog one

The Problem of the Two Glorfindels

With the possible exception of Tom Bombadil's identity (and - of course - the wingedness or otherwise of Balrogs), there is no more hotly debated topic than the ultimate fate of Glorfindel. Were Glorfindel of Gondolin and Glorfindel of Rivendell the same person?

The only real resource we have to answer this question is in The Peoples of Middle-earth (The History of Middle-earth Vol. 12): XIII Last Writings, Glorfindel. Christopher Tolkien dates the notes he gives here at 1972, the year before his father's death.

These notes clear up one question immediately: at the time of the writing of The Lord of the Rings, Glorfindel of Rivendell was not conceived as the same character as Glorfindel of Gondolin. Tolkien says, 'Its use [i.e. the name 'Glorfindel'] in The Lord of the Rings is one of the cases of the somewhat random use of the names found in the older legends ... which escaped reconsideration in the final published form...'.

Tolkien was far from happy with this state of affairs, however, and it seems that he intended to reconcile the problem by uniting the two strands of the story. In summary, the notes tell us that Glorfindel's spirit returned to the Halls of Waiting, but was after a time re-embodied by the Valar. He then returned to Middle-earth (either in the mid-Second Age, or as a companion of the Istari in the Third). For the full story of his return, refer to The Peoples of Middle-earth.

The question of Glorfindel's identity, then, brings us to a much wider, and highly relevant, question. Can we accept a writer's personal notes, whether written in preparation for a published work, or simply for personal satisfaction, as part of that writer's 'canon'?

The importance of this question is highlighted by the essay entitled The Problem of Ros in the same volume of The History of Middle-earth. This is an extensive disposition on the origins and meaning of the syllable ros in names such as Elros. The details need not concern us here: what is relevant is the fact that, after its composition, Tolkien noticed a detail in the published Lord of the Rings that essentially negated the discussion. He dismissed the body of The Problem of Ros with four words; 'most of this fails'.

But what if he had not noticed this inconvenient fact (that Cair Andros had already been interpreted, and disagreed with his conclusions)? What if he had noticed, but had failed to record the fact? Would The Problem of Ros now be considered part of the 'Tolkienian' canon in the way that many regard the notes on Glorfindel? Questions like this show that we cannot simply take such notes on immediate face value.

Despite this, the Glorfindel notes lead many to see his re-embodiment and return to Middle-earth as 'fact' (and not a few have e-mailed us to remind us of this!) The purpose of this rather lengthy aside, though, is to show that we cannot view these 'events' in such concrete terms. This is the reason that the 'two Glorfindels' have separate entries on this site. This is not because we do not believe that Tolkien saw them as different embodiments of the same character (as we have seen, there are strong indications that he did), but simply because there is no definitive, published, proof of this.

[Dúnedain]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
Glorfindel is a Noldorin Elf, but there is some question as to which house he belonged. In LotRs, Tolkien says that Glorfindel has golden hair, and of the three royal lines of the Noldor, the only ones to have the golden hair of the Vanyar were of the house of Finarfin, but since Glorfindel lived in Gondolin in the FA, then it would seem that he may have been of the house of Fingolfin. But nomatter what house he was from, he was a Noldo.

Yup

"The Noldor were normally dark-haired, but the golden hair of the Vanyar was introduced through Indis, a Vanyarin Elf-maiden; hence the descendants of her sons Fingolfin and Finarfin sometimes had golden hair, suggesting that Glorfindel may have come from this noble line."

[Wayfarer]

Glorfindel couldn't have been having an affair with arwen. The reason is simple: elves don't have affairs.

Remember, elves marry once and that is for life You can count on one finger the number of elves who ever remarried, and that turned out quite badly. In that case, it is ridiculous to suppose that elves would ever have sexual relations outside of marriage.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Wayfarer
Glorfindel couldn't have been having an affair with arwen. The reason is simple: elves don't have affairs.

Remember, elves marry once and that is for life You can count on one finger the number of elves who ever remarried, and that turned out quite badly. In that case, it is ridiculous to suppose that elves would ever have sexual relations outside of marriage.

Very true. I believe the only case we know of as far as remarriage is Finwe, and that was after his first wife died and refused to return to life. Elves fell in love with their mates usually in childhood and married later sealing their marriage with a physical union. It is said in "Laws and Customs" that it was also rare for Elves to lust after another that had been spoken for.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Dúnedain
Here it is, it is from the Encylopedia of Arda, and they put together a good point, so I guess it is a debate like the Balrog one

Not entirely. Tolkien doesn't really give any clue as to the Balrog wing question, but the HoMe, the PoMe sets it straight about Glorfindel. It is an essay that he wrote and CT published. Nomatterwhat the E of A says: if the Master says they were the same, then, they were the same.

[Dúnedain]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
Not entirely. Tolkien doesn't really give any clue as to the Balrog wing question

That's debatable

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Dúnedain
That's debatable

Not here it's not. I got the big stick.

[Elf Girl]

*glare* Let's not go into that here.

*coughnowingscough*

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Elf Girl
*glare* Let's not go into that here.

*coughnowingscough*

SMACK!

[Elf Girl]

SMACK SMACK!!

[Lalaith]

I think it may be that elves do not have affairs, but they are not always good wives or husbands. Think of Galadriel who left Celeborn in middle-earth when she went to Valinor. And they had fights before that.

[BeardofPants]

Bah. We all know that balrogs had wings of shadow. And dammit, I'm going to have to revise my previous theories on Glorfindel. *sigh*

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by BeardofPants
I'm going to have to revise my previous theories on Glorfindel. *sigh*

Why, did you think that there were two of him too?

[Dúnedain]

Originally posted by Elf Girl
*glare* Let's not go into that here.

*coughnowingscough*

Don't worry I wasn't gonna go into that here.

*coughwingscough*

[Elf Girl]

SMACK!

[BeardofPants]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
Why, did you think that there were two of him too?

Well, I WAS a big fan of the "recycled name" theory, until you burst my bubble. Meanie.

[Dúnedain]

Originally posted by Elf Girl
SMACK!

Ooooooh, thank you, may I please have another