Peter Jackson has improved Tolkien - Page 2

Black Breathalizer · 09-23-2002, 09:01 PM

This wasn't meant to be a Jackson versus Tolkien thread. I love Tolkien. The Lord of the Rings has always been my all-time favorite novel. All I meant to say is that in some small - but important - ways, Jackson gave audiences a deeper understanding (sorry, I disagree with you, Markedel) of Tolkien's wonderous world and its inhabitants.

I disagree with Khandrane that it was better to have Boromir less "likeable." I don't think Jackson changed Boromir's character, but he certainly fleshed out aspects of his personality that the audience related to more than readers of the novel did. By showing Boromir's "likeability", the audience understood that Boromir was basically a good, decent, and honorable guy but was seduced by the power of the ring. It made his guilt and ultimate redemption much more powerful and dramatic.

cassiopeia · 09-23-2002, 10:00 PM

I don't really think that PJ has improved on the works of the good professor. But, PJ's interpretation has made me like Boromir more, so next time I read the book I will perhaps think of him better. I also have a better idea of what Rivendell and Lorien looks like (I couldn't really visualise them).

I really think that PJ has done a great job. I only disagree with a few things, such as some corny dialogue, bad special effects and casting. I really love how he put in some extra features for book fans; like Fatty Bolger and the stone trolls (I only saw the trolls a few days ago when I watched it for about the 20th time).

Cirdan · 09-23-2002, 10:22 PM

At this point I think that it should be said that it would be difficult to find someone who would do a better job of bringing the story to the screen. While there were many details left out and others altered, it is the nature of movie directors to mettle with the screenplay. Most books are, by nature, richer in detail and more natural in pace than movies. I think that a decent effort was made to capture the spirit of the book. What is lacking in the movie is the backdrop of the adventure which, in the book, gives the story its magical quality. I'm currently reading it again and am in the house of Tom Bombadil. Readers only may enter.

BeardofPants · 09-23-2002, 11:59 PM

I should cut PJ some slack; he is, afterall, a kiwi.

basketball!

tharkun27 · 09-24-2002, 02:12 AM

Bropous pretty much sums up my opinion. But to me it's like apples and oranges. You could never really compare a painting and a song, or a sculpture and a play. These are different artistic mediums-each with their own limitations and moments to shine. Nobody can tug on your heart strings or create perfect dialogue like JRRT. But, the job that PJ did bringing these literary images into visual existence is amazing. Gandalf rebuking Bilbo in BagEnd, the fireworks, Galadriel being tempted by the ring, Bilbo asking Frodo to hold the ring one more time, Gandalf and the Balrog in Moria-"you cannot pass", and many more. I think we can all agree that the mental images we had before the movie was released, were depicted in an accurate manner. How could the writers ever hope to match JRRT's dialogue in 3 hours. They didn't. They just tried to make the best movie they could- especially taking into consideration the next two movies. Remember, they shot the whole thing at once, and had ALOT of story lines to establish in the first movie. Still didn't dig Liv though.

bropous · 09-24-2002, 11:57 AM

Welcome to the Moot, Tharkun27.

As for whether the film actually visualized my mental image of Tolkien's world, it really didn't. I guess I grew up with the images from the Brothers Hildebrandt in mind and not the art of Alan Lee. Ted Nasmith also did some great artwork, and I guess my mental picture would have been a blend of Brothers Hildebrandt and Nasmith, with a little bit of Roger Dean, Frank Frazetta and others tossed in. As it was, however, I was completely enchanted with the artistic vision of the film.

BoP: Great line from "Computer World" there. Ever listen to Autobahn? Kraftwerk's best album. Trans-Europe Express is pretty good too.

olsonm · 09-24-2002, 01:15 PM

PJ is telling a story that is based upon JRR's book. But it's not the same. That should be obvious. The result is that the movie's are a new story, though one closely drawn from the book of the same name. As such, for those who are fans of the book it's up to personal taste as to whether or not they like this new story.

BeardofPants · 09-24-2002, 05:16 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by bropous
BoP: Great line from "Computer World" there. Ever listen to Autobahn? Kraftwerk's best album. Trans-Europe Express is pretty good too.

Yep, and yep. Trans-Europe Express is my favourite album though, followed closely by Radioactivity.

Regarding the movie; as far as I am concerned, it just isn't PJ's best body of work. *shrug* Perhaps, after I've seen the rest of the trilogy I'll change my mind, we'll see. But as it stands, he's supplanted quite a few lines with generic stuff ("Let's hunt some ork" "My brother, etc") generic, and dare I say it, corny music, and so forth. The whole movie, for me, does not stand out as something different from the rest of the fantasy genre: only the fact that it is entitled "Lord of the Rings" defines it as something different ... for me. To each, their own, eh?

Cirdan · 09-24-2002, 06:09 PM

Yes, and let's not forget, "Nobody tosses a dwarf."

Sween · 09-24-2002, 06:11 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Cirdan
Yes, and let's not forget, "Nobody tosses a dwarf."

i loved that line

. Seriousl dont you think that kinda fits in with the dwarf mentality quite well?

Cirdan · 09-24-2002, 07:13 PM

Yes, but lots of people toss dwarves. I saw dwarf bowling somewhere. Tough way to make a living, really. hehe... dwarf tossing

BeardofPants · 09-24-2002, 07:21 PM

I'll have you know that tossing men is one of my favourite activities.

cassiopeia · 09-24-2002, 07:31 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by BeardofPants
I'll have you know that tossing men is one of my favourite activities.

I'm not sure if you meant it that way, but that seems to me to be quite rude.

BeardofPants · 09-24-2002, 07:35 PM

Who me? Be ambiguous? Never!

Cirdan · 09-24-2002, 07:42 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by BeardofPants
I'll have you know that tossing men is one of my favourite activities.

Is that repeatedly or more than one being tossed at a time?

BeardofPants · 09-24-2002, 07:43 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Cirdan
Is that repeatedly or more than one being tossed at a time?

Well, I have a list of men I'd like to throw from my balcony. PJ has almost made it. Let's just see how TTT turns out.

cassiopeia · 09-24-2002, 07:48 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by BeardofPants
Well, I have a list of men I'd like to throw from my balcony. PJ has almost made it. Let's just see how TTT turns out.

You would have to be pretty strong to toss PJ from a balcony.

I guess I was thinking of another kind of tossing......

BeardofPants · 09-24-2002, 07:51 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by cassiopeia
I guess I was thinking of another kind of tossing......

That's filthy!

I would never have thought of that. *angelic look*

(I was thinking of tying him to my fridge, and tossing that out.

)

Black Breathalizer · 09-25-2002, 06:55 AM

BeardofPants said: "Regarding the movie; as far as I am concerned, it just isn't PJ's best body of work. *shrug* Perhaps, after I've seen the rest of the trilogy I'll change my mind, we'll see. But as it stands, he's supplanted quite a few lines with generic stuff ("Let's hunt some ork" "My brother, etc") generic, and dare I say it, corny music, and so forth. The whole movie, for me, does not stand out as something different from the rest of the fantasy genre: only the fact that it is entitled "Lord of the Rings" defines it as something different ... for me. To each, their own, eh?"

um, I guess.

If you don't like PJ's movie, that's certainly your right. But pardon me if I point out the movie's "corny" music won an academy award...the "generic" one liners were part of a screenplay nominated for an academy award...and if I'm not mistaken, the movie is the first fantasy to ever be nominated for a best picture Oscar (obviously SOME people thought the movie stood out as something different from the genre.)

Me thinks you (and others here) allowed your love of the books to cloud your objectivity.

BeardofPants · 09-25-2002, 07:36 AM

Quote:

Black Breathalizer:
Me thinks you (and others here) allowed your love of the books to cloud your objectivity.

I truly don't think so. I don't happen to find anything in the movie to hook me in. And it's my right to think this, inasmuch as it's your right to like the movie. Don't patronise me by saying that my decision to dislike the movie is because my objectivity is clouded. I can swing that argument right back at you, but surely that would be futile?

Regarding the academy awards: I don't think that stands to much, does it? Those awards are weighted at the best of times. The fact that Russel Crowe got an oscar for Gladiator instead of the Insider, and that Denzel Washington got it for Training Day instead of Hurricane, and Halley got it for Monsters Ball: how... convenient.

No, I don't place too much stock in academy awards.

09-23-2002, 10:00 PM	#22
cassiopeia Viggoholic Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Australia Posts: 1,749	I don't really think that PJ has improved on the works of the good professor. But, PJ's interpretation has made me like Boromir more, so next time I read the book I will perhaps think of him better. I also have a better idea of what Rivendell and Lorien looks like (I couldn't really visualise them). I really think that PJ has done a great job. I only disagree with a few things, such as some corny dialogue, bad special effects and casting. I really love how he put in some extra features for book fans; like Fatty Bolger and the stone trolls (I only saw the trolls a few days ago when I watched it for about the 20th time). __________________ Kids, you tried your best and you failed miserably. The lesson is, never try.

09-23-2002, 10:22 PM	#23
Cirdan Elf Lord of the Grey Havens Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: somewhere else Posts: 2,381	At this point I think that it should be said that it would be difficult to find someone who would do a better job of bringing the story to the screen. While there were many details left out and others altered, it is the nature of movie directors to mettle with the screenplay. Most books are, by nature, richer in detail and more natural in pace than movies. I think that a decent effort was made to capture the spirit of the book. What is lacking in the movie is the backdrop of the adventure which, in the book, gives the story its magical quality. I'm currently reading it again and am in the house of Tom Bombadil. Readers only may enter. __________________ There exists a limit to the force even ther most powerful may apply without destroying themselves. Judging this limit is the true artistry of government. Misuse of power is the fatal sin. The law cannot be a tool of vengance, never a hostage, nor a fortification against the martyrs it has created. You cannot threaten any individual and escape the consequences. -Muad'dib on Law The Stilgar Commentary

09-23-2002, 11:59 PM	#24
BeardofPants the Shrike Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: San Francisco, CA <3 Posts: 10,647	I should cut PJ some slack; he is, afterall, a kiwi. basketball! __________________ "Binary solo! 0000001! 00000011! 0000001! 00000011!" ~ The Humans are Dead, Flight of the Conchords

09-24-2002, 02:12 AM	#25
tharkun27 Sapling Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: ny Posts: 14	Bropous pretty much sums up my opinion. But to me it's like apples and oranges. You could never really compare a painting and a song, or a sculpture and a play. These are different artistic mediums-each with their own limitations and moments to shine. Nobody can tug on your heart strings or create perfect dialogue like JRRT. But, the job that PJ did bringing these literary images into visual existence is amazing. Gandalf rebuking Bilbo in BagEnd, the fireworks, Galadriel being tempted by the ring, Bilbo asking Frodo to hold the ring one more time, Gandalf and the Balrog in Moria-"you cannot pass", and many more. I think we can all agree that the mental images we had before the movie was released, were depicted in an accurate manner. How could the writers ever hope to match JRRT's dialogue in 3 hours. They didn't. They just tried to make the best movie they could- especially taking into consideration the next two movies. Remember, they shot the whole thing at once, and had ALOT of story lines to establish in the first movie. Still didn't dig Liv though. Last edited by tharkun27 : 09-24-2002 at 02:15 AM.

09-24-2002, 11:57 AM	#26
bropous EIDRIORCQWSDAKLMED DCWWTIWOATTOPWFIO Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Littleton, CO Posts: 1,176	Welcome to the Moot, Tharkun27. As for whether the film actually visualized my mental image of Tolkien's world, it really didn't. I guess I grew up with the images from the Brothers Hildebrandt in mind and not the art of Alan Lee. Ted Nasmith also did some great artwork, and I guess my mental picture would have been a blend of Brothers Hildebrandt and Nasmith, with a little bit of Roger Dean, Frank Frazetta and others tossed in. As it was, however, I was completely enchanted with the artistic vision of the film. BoP: Great line from "Computer World" there. Ever listen to Autobahn? Kraftwerk's best album. Trans-Europe Express is pretty good too. __________________ "...[The Lord of the Rings] is to exemplify most clearly a recurrent theme: the place in 'world politics' of the unforeseen and unforeseeable acts of will, and deeds of virtue of the apparently small, ungreat, fogotten in the places of the Wise and Great (good as well as evil). A moral of the whole (after the primary symbolism of the Ring, as the will to mere power, seeking to make itself objective by physical force and mechanism, and so also inevitably by lies) is the obvious one that without the high and noble the simple and vulgar is utterly mean; and without the simple and ordinary the noble and heroic is meaningless." Letters of JRR Tolkien, page 160.

09-23-2002, 09:01 PM	#21
Black Breathalizer Elf Lord Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 828	This wasn't meant to be a Jackson versus Tolkien thread. I love Tolkien. The Lord of the Rings has always been my all-time favorite novel. All I meant to say is that in some small - but important - ways, Jackson gave audiences a deeper understanding (sorry, I disagree with you, Markedel) of Tolkien's wonderous world and its inhabitants. I disagree with Khandrane that it was better to have Boromir less "likeable." I don't think Jackson changed Boromir's character, but he certainly fleshed out aspects of his personality that the audience related to more than readers of the novel did. By showing Boromir's "likeability", the audience understood that Boromir was basically a good, decent, and honorable guy but was seduced by the power of the ring. It made his guilt and ultimate redemption much more powerful and dramatic.

09-24-2002, 01:15 PM	#27
olsonm Elf Lord Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: minneapolis MN Posts: 920	PJ is telling a story that is based upon JRR's book. But it's not the same. That should be obvious. The result is that the movie's are a new story, though one closely drawn from the book of the same name. As such, for those who are fans of the book it's up to personal taste as to whether or not they like this new story. __________________ Gandalf lives...oh and Frodo too. Haldir Lives!!!

09-24-2002, 06:09 PM	#29
Cirdan Elf Lord of the Grey Havens Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: somewhere else Posts: 2,381	Yes, and let's not forget, "Nobody tosses a dwarf." __________________ There exists a limit to the force even ther most powerful may apply without destroying themselves. Judging this limit is the true artistry of government. Misuse of power is the fatal sin. The law cannot be a tool of vengance, never a hostage, nor a fortification against the martyrs it has created. You cannot threaten any individual and escape the consequences. -Muad'dib on Law The Stilgar Commentary

09-24-2002, 07:13 PM	#31
Cirdan Elf Lord of the Grey Havens Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: somewhere else Posts: 2,381	Yes, but lots of people toss dwarves. I saw dwarf bowling somewhere. Tough way to make a living, really. hehe... dwarf tossing __________________ There exists a limit to the force even ther most powerful may apply without destroying themselves. Judging this limit is the true artistry of government. Misuse of power is the fatal sin. The law cannot be a tool of vengance, never a hostage, nor a fortification against the martyrs it has created. You cannot threaten any individual and escape the consequences. -Muad'dib on Law The Stilgar Commentary

09-24-2002, 07:21 PM	#32
BeardofPants the Shrike Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: San Francisco, CA <3 Posts: 10,647	I'll have you know that tossing men is one of my favourite activities. __________________ "Binary solo! 0000001! 00000011! 0000001! 00000011!" ~ The Humans are Dead, Flight of the Conchords

09-24-2002, 07:35 PM	#34
BeardofPants the Shrike Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: San Francisco, CA <3 Posts: 10,647	Who me? Be ambiguous? Never! __________________ "Binary solo! 0000001! 00000011! 0000001! 00000011!" ~ The Humans are Dead, Flight of the Conchords

09-25-2002, 06:55 AM	#39
Black Breathalizer Elf Lord Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 828	BeardofPants said: "Regarding the movie; as far as I am concerned, it just isn't PJ's best body of work. shrug Perhaps, after I've seen the rest of the trilogy I'll change my mind, we'll see. But as it stands, he's supplanted quite a few lines with generic stuff ("Let's hunt some ork" "My brother, etc") generic, and dare I say it, corny music, and so forth. The whole movie, for me, does not stand out as something different from the rest of the fantasy genre: only the fact that it is entitled "Lord of the Rings" defines it as something different ... for me. To each, their own, eh?" um, I guess. If you don't like PJ's movie, that's certainly your right. But pardon me if I point out the movie's "corny" music won an academy award...the "generic" one liners were part of a screenplay nominated for an academy award...and if I'm not mistaken, the movie is the first fantasy to ever be nominated for a best picture Oscar (obviously SOME people thought the movie stood out as something different from the genre.) Me thinks you (and others here) allowed your love of the books to cloud your objectivity.

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