Ents - Page 2

Starr Polish · 09-29-2002, 07:08 PM

He also called it his 'magnum opus'. ::dances around with her copy of "Letters" over her head:: I gots it, I gots it!

Yeah...hoom...those ents.

I wasn't really disappointed with the ent storyline, only the lack of information on entwives, and how tragic it seemed. No more entlings..hoom.

**Nurvingiel** · 09-30-2002, 03:40 AM

What I was talking about was just a rumour that, I believe, Sam mentioned. (At some point in the non-trilogy. Well you could say "trilogy" if you were talking about three books that go together as part of the overall epic... never mind. Book... I like it.)

Anyway another Entish point I'm confused on is Hurons. Treebeard described them briefly (especially for an Ent) but I'm still confused as to how they differ from Ents exactly.

BeardofPants · 09-30-2002, 03:44 AM

Huorns are ents that have become more "tree-ish."

**Nurvingiel** · 10-01-2002, 01:08 AM

That's the only difference? Well, it does make sense... I also thought they were more hostile or something. But I could be massively wrong.

***Earniel*** · 10-01-2002, 06:44 AM

I got the same impression Nurvingiel. I thought Huorns were more violent and volatile than ents and that the ents needed to keep the Huorns a little in check.

Ñólendil · 10-03-2002, 12:02 AM

Not all Huyrn (if that's the right plural) were violent. There were plenty that were good-hearted. BeardofPants has it right: Huyrn were either trees that were becoming Entish, or Ents that were becoming trees, or both.

An example of Huorns that don't appear particularly dangerous to Free persons are the Evergreens standing outside Treebeard's home, that lift their boughs for him at the entrance, or the naked tree on the edge of Fangorn that warms its branches over the fire of the Three Hunters. Or there is Leaflock (one of the three eldest Ents of Fangorn), who's slowly becoming more and more like a tree. Technically he was still an Ent, but he was on his way to Huorn-status.

Even if you look at the Old Forest, as much genuine resentment was harbored there for the two-legged, Tolkien said that many trees there were under the tyrannical rule of Old Man Willow, who's roots were extremely deep and far-reaching.

Cirdan · 10-03-2002, 12:14 AM

Huyrn (hmm) where, IMO, another manifestation of class in the same way as Sam's relationship to Frodo (master). Think of a large brooding crowd of labor strikers.

***Rían*** · 10-03-2002, 01:11 AM

That's how I always thought of it, too, Cirdan. And since the Ents were shepherds, the things that they shepherded obviously needed shepherding (hey, three forms of "shepherd" in one sentence! Are those words spelled right? They sure look weird!) So the Huorns were kind of a simpler, less intelligent form of Ents. The idea of Ents going into Huorns fits in, too - they kind of sink into Huorn-ness if they get lazy and don't keep striving to do their job.

Snowdog · 10-03-2002, 02:00 AM

I took a hike into the high country last month, and surely a tree stepped in front of me as I walked into it at full step. The mighty Douglas Firs and Ceders, remind me of Ents as they are so mighty. They have become so treeish these days. My day hike last week had their roots tripping me up alot.

***Rían*** · 10-03-2002, 02:34 AM

Dunadan · 10-03-2002, 05:10 AM

Never thought of ents as shop stewards before, though it does fit in with the role of Saruman as arch-capitalist.

**Nurvingiel** · 10-03-2002, 02:14 PM

The Ents are the total opposite of Saruman, and they were even enemies before Saruman 'lost the war'.

Does that mean Ents are like Communists?

We don't know a lot about them, it's entirely possible that they have a system central planning to decide what, how much, and how often to produce goods. They could also decide who gets what in this way.

However, they wouldn't be purely communist, because we know they have meetings which include eveyone to decide important actions.

Entmoot!

Dunadan · 10-03-2002, 02:42 PM

Definitely onto something here... why should communist mean NOT consulting people? (The word Soviet means an assembly of representatives at whatever level: local or national.) The Ents were the only people anywhere in LOTR whose leaders actually consulted their people before doing anything.

Come to think of it, the descriptions of Treebeard's beard... sounds a bit like Fidel!

Actually, it seems more like the Ents were anarchists; it was the Entwives who wanted to run a command economy. SPLITTERS!

(Something tells me that the thesis of LOTR as socialist tract isn't going to stand up to rigorous examination.)

durin's bane · 10-03-2002, 10:49 PM

er... i always just thought ents were talking tree people who like being unhasty. now theres communism...sitings...hiking... now ents are hiking seeing communists! yikes help

Cirdan · 10-04-2002, 12:24 AM

Well they were definitely isloationists

There is a cnsistent theme throughout the book about a class of nobility (lords, kings, decendants, stewards) and the lesser class. They are dipicterd differently but not in an adversarial way, at least when they are on the same side of the conflict. Officer class and the common footsoldiers.

Communism? yoinks!

**Nurvingiel** · 10-08-2002, 12:28 AM

Well, they could have been Communist, however, we don't really know enough about Ents to conclusively say what kind of government they had.

BeardofPants · 10-08-2002, 12:45 AM

Okay, an anthropological perspective: generally that level of complex social hierarchy/specialisation requires both a sizable population (which the ents did not have) and relatively advanced technology (which they also did not have as they were pastoral.) So I think the likelihood of ents being communist is very very slim.

Treebeard's apprentice · 10-08-2002, 01:18 AM

I had the impression that most of the Ents basically stayed in one place for a while watching over Fangorn and soakin some rays. They would probably move around occasionally, but not enought that they would meet and talk with a lot of other Ents on a regular basis. Therefore, since the word 'commun'ist implies some sort of community, it doesn't make sense that they would be communists because they were *somewhat* isolated from each other. Actually, I don't think they even had any sort of organised government at all.

Of, course this is all opinion and speculation (which is why it's so much fun).

Dunadan · 10-08-2002, 11:29 AM

Somebody who takes it all far too seriously can be found at:

http://csf.colorado.edu/forums/pfvs/.../msg01573.html

However, it's pretty obvious that Tolkien hated industrialisation and hankered after a bygone era when everyone knew their place. The exception was ents, who didn't seem to know their place. I like to picture George W explaining to Treebeard why he's not interested in the Kyoto protocol...

**Nurvingiel** · 10-09-2002, 03:18 AM

I checked out your link Dunadan! You know you read into Tolkein a little too much when... you find more in it then Tolkein did!

09-29-2002, 07:08 PM	#21
Starr Polish Elf Lord Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Slow down and I sail on the river, slow down and I walk to the hill Posts: 2,389	He also called it his 'magnum opus'. ::dances around with her copy of "Letters" over her head:: I gots it, I gots it! Yeah...hoom...those ents. I wasn't really disappointed with the ent storyline, only the lack of information on entwives, and how tragic it seemed. No more entlings..hoom. __________________ “The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts.” –Bertrand Russell

09-30-2002, 03:40 AM	#22
Nurvingiel Co-President of Entmoot Super Moderator Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 8,397	Right! The Ents! What I was talking about was just a rumour that, I believe, Sam mentioned. (At some point in the non-trilogy. Well you could say "trilogy" if you were talking about three books that go together as part of the overall epic... never mind. Book... I like it.) Anyway another Entish point I'm confused on is Hurons. Treebeard described them briefly (especially for an Ent) but I'm still confused as to how they differ from Ents exactly.

09-30-2002, 03:44 AM	#23
BeardofPants the Shrike Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: San Francisco, CA <3 Posts: 10,647	Huorns are ents that have become more "tree-ish." __________________ "Binary solo! 0000001! 00000011! 0000001! 00000011!" ~ The Humans are Dead, Flight of the Conchords

10-01-2002, 01:08 AM	#24
Nurvingiel Co-President of Entmoot Super Moderator Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 8,397	? That's the only difference? Well, it does make sense... I also thought they were more hostile or something. But I could be massively wrong.

10-01-2002, 06:44 AM	#25
*Earniel* The Chocoholic Sea Elf Administrator Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: N?n in Eilph (Belgium) Posts: 14,363	I got the same impression Nurvingiel. I thought Huorns were more violent and volatile than ents and that the ents needed to keep the Huorns a little in check. __________________ We are not things.

10-03-2002, 12:02 AM	#26
Ñólendil Elf Lord Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: California Posts: 60,865	Not all Huyrn (if that's the right plural) were violent. There were plenty that were good-hearted. BeardofPants has it right: Huyrn were either trees that were becoming Entish, or Ents that were becoming trees, or both. An example of Huorns that don't appear particularly dangerous to Free persons are the Evergreens standing outside Treebeard's home, that lift their boughs for him at the entrance, or the naked tree on the edge of Fangorn that warms its branches over the fire of the Three Hunters. Or there is Leaflock (one of the three eldest Ents of Fangorn), who's slowly becoming more and more like a tree. Technically he was still an Ent, but he was on his way to Huorn-status. Even if you look at the Old Forest, as much genuine resentment was harbored there for the two-legged, Tolkien said that many trees there were under the tyrannical rule of Old Man Willow, who's roots were extremely deep and far-reaching. __________________ Falmon -- Dylan

10-03-2002, 12:14 AM	#27
Cirdan Elf Lord of the Grey Havens Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: somewhere else Posts: 2,381	Huyrn (hmm) where, IMO, another manifestation of class in the same way as Sam's relationship to Frodo (master). Think of a large brooding crowd of labor strikers. __________________ There exists a limit to the force even ther most powerful may apply without destroying themselves. Judging this limit is the true artistry of government. Misuse of power is the fatal sin. The law cannot be a tool of vengance, never a hostage, nor a fortification against the martyrs it has created. You cannot threaten any individual and escape the consequences. -Muad'dib on Law The Stilgar Commentary

10-03-2002, 01:11 AM	#28
*Rían* Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!) Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Not where I want to be ... Posts: 15,254	That's how I always thought of it, too, Cirdan. And since the Ents were shepherds, the things that they shepherded obviously needed shepherding (hey, three forms of "shepherd" in one sentence! Are those words spelled right? They sure look weird!) So the Huorns were kind of a simpler, less intelligent form of Ents. The idea of Ents going into Huorns fits in, too - they kind of sink into Huorn-ness if they get lazy and don't keep striving to do their job. __________________ . I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva!

10-03-2002, 02:00 AM	#29
Snowdog Dúnedain Ranger of the North Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: The Ruins of Arnor Posts: 892	I took a hike into the high country last month, and surely a tree stepped in front of me as I walked into it at full step. The mighty Douglas Firs and Ceders, remind me of Ents as they are so mighty. They have become so treeish these days. My day hike last week had their roots tripping me up alot. __________________ "I am an outlaw, I was born an outlaw's son. The highway is my legacy, on the highway I will run."

10-03-2002, 02:34 AM	#30
*Rían* Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!) Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Not where I want to be ... Posts: 15,254	LOL! __________________ . I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva!

10-03-2002, 05:10 AM	#31
Dunadan The Quite Querulous Quendi Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Oxon, UK Posts: 638	Never thought of ents as shop stewards before, though it does fit in with the role of Saruman as arch-capitalist.

10-03-2002, 02:14 PM	#32
Nurvingiel Co-President of Entmoot Super Moderator Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 8,397	Communism and Ents The Ents are the total opposite of Saruman, and they were even enemies before Saruman 'lost the war'. Does that mean Ents are like Communists? We don't know a lot about them, it's entirely possible that they have a system central planning to decide what, how much, and how often to produce goods. They could also decide who gets what in this way. However, they wouldn't be purely communist, because we know they have meetings which include eveyone to decide important actions. Entmoot!

10-03-2002, 02:42 PM	#33
Dunadan The Quite Querulous Quendi Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Oxon, UK Posts: 638	brothers and sisters unite, we have nothing to lose but our shrubs Definitely onto something here... why should communist mean NOT consulting people? (The word Soviet means an assembly of representatives at whatever level: local or national.) The Ents were the only people anywhere in LOTR whose leaders actually consulted their people before doing anything. Come to think of it, the descriptions of Treebeard's beard... sounds a bit like Fidel! Actually, it seems more like the Ents were anarchists; it was the Entwives who wanted to run a command economy. SPLITTERS! (Something tells me that the thesis of LOTR as socialist tract isn't going to stand up to rigorous examination.) Last edited by Dunadan : 10-03-2002 at 02:46 PM.

10-03-2002, 10:49 PM	#34
durin's bane Lady of Westernesse Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Canada (Help! Our parliament building is melting!) Posts: 761	er... i always just thought ents were talking tree people who like being unhasty. now theres communism...sitings...hiking... now ents are hiking seeing communists! yikes help __________________ Yada, yada, yada

10-04-2002, 12:24 AM	#35
Cirdan Elf Lord of the Grey Havens Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: somewhere else Posts: 2,381	Well they were definitely isloationists There is a cnsistent theme throughout the book about a class of nobility (lords, kings, decendants, stewards) and the lesser class. They are dipicterd differently but not in an adversarial way, at least when they are on the same side of the conflict. Officer class and the common footsoldiers. Communism? yoinks! __________________ There exists a limit to the force even ther most powerful may apply without destroying themselves. Judging this limit is the true artistry of government. Misuse of power is the fatal sin. The law cannot be a tool of vengance, never a hostage, nor a fortification against the martyrs it has created. You cannot threaten any individual and escape the consequences. -Muad'dib on Law The Stilgar Commentary

10-08-2002, 12:28 AM	#36
Nurvingiel Co-President of Entmoot Super Moderator Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 8,397	I'm just talking... Well, they could have been Communist, however, we don't really know enough about Ents to conclusively say what kind of government they had.

10-08-2002, 12:45 AM	#37
BeardofPants the Shrike Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: San Francisco, CA <3 Posts: 10,647	Okay, an anthropological perspective: generally that level of complex social hierarchy/specialisation requires both a sizable population (which the ents did not have) and relatively advanced technology (which they also did not have as they were pastoral.) So I think the likelihood of ents being communist is very very slim. __________________ "Binary solo! 0000001! 00000011! 0000001! 00000011!" ~ The Humans are Dead, Flight of the Conchords

10-08-2002, 01:18 AM	#38
Treebeard's apprentice Elven Warrior Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Wherever I may roam Posts: 207	I had the impression that most of the Ents basically stayed in one place for a while watching over Fangorn and soakin some rays. They would probably move around occasionally, but not enought that they would meet and talk with a lot of other Ents on a regular basis. Therefore, since the word 'commun'ist implies some sort of community, it doesn't make sense that they would be communists because they were somewhat isolated from each other. Actually, I don't think they even had any sort of organised government at all. Of, course this is all opinion and speculation (which is why it's so much fun).

10-08-2002, 11:29 AM	#39
Dunadan The Quite Querulous Quendi Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Oxon, UK Posts: 638	Somebody who takes it all far too seriously can be found at: http://csf.colorado.edu/forums/pfvs/.../msg01573.html However, it's pretty obvious that Tolkien hated industrialisation and hankered after a bygone era when everyone knew their place. The exception was ents, who didn't seem to know their place. I like to picture George W explaining to Treebeard why he's not interested in the Kyoto protocol...

10-09-2002, 03:18 AM	#40
Nurvingiel Co-President of Entmoot Super Moderator Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 8,397	That guy was hard core I checked out your link Dunadan! You know you read into Tolkein a little too much when... you find more in it then Tolkein did!

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