Problems with education

[BeardofPants]

Originally posted by Lizra
Soft teachers ruin things. I remember cutting half my senior year, yet graduating on senior honor role! Soft teachers gave me A's and B's cause I was intelligent and didn't cause trouble. When I got to college, I'd lost my study habits (if I ever had them after all that curve grading!) and struggled. I eventually dropped out. The soft teachers enjoyed being "popular" with the students, but did us no favors.

Yeah, and don't forget the teachers who don't give a rats arse. We have so many of them as well, since they stopped the zoning (area zones: my high school was one of the best in the area until they stopped the zoning!), and poor pay. I remember my second to last year there was spent protesting, and skipping class, because of teachers strikes. However, I will say this, my friends and associates fared much better at varsity in terms of grades, than my private schooled friends. Why? Because we were forced to do the yard work at high school cos the teachers just didn't care. Whereas the private schooled children had the so-called "soft-teachers."

what do you mean my this? vocational training?

Yes. Something like that. My brother has severe dyslexia, and ADHD, and he's never fared very well at school. He eventually dropped out without taking any finals, so has no qualifications, and no hope of getting any, any time soon either.

[cassiopeia]

I went to what you would call a 'rough' school, where most kids didn't want to go on to university. Luckily, I did get into university. In the final year of school here, you get a score and if your score is higher than the score needed for your university course you get in. The rankings of the score are graded such that science subjects like maths, physics and chemistry (which I did) are scaled higher than say, history or accounting. I think this should encourage people to do these subjects. Basic science is lacking in many societies around the world. I agree that a critical thinking subject should be compulsary in high school. Too many people are duped into believing things such as horoscopes and forture tellers, where there is absolutely no evidence that these things work.

We don't pay teachers (or policemen or nurses) enough. Funny how we pay business executives, movie stars ect. more than people who teach our children, look after us when sick or perhaps save our lives.

The students have to be motivated to learn. I don't know how many people actually want to learn about history, science ect. I want to learn as much as possible in my life, maybe most people don't care.

I think I've ranted enough for now.

[Khamûl]

Originally posted by cassiopeia

We don't pay teachers (or policemen or nurses) enough. Funny how we pay business executives, movie stars ect. more than people who teach our children, look after us when sick or perhaps save our lives.

Yeah, what about the really important people, like professional wrestlers?

I agree that teachers aren't paid enough. I'm not just saying that because my mom's a teacher. I know that if I had to put up with some of the heathens that teachers deal with on a daily basis, I'd be asking for a lot more money.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Khamûl
Yeah, what about the really important people, like professional wrestlers?

I agree that teachers aren't paid enough. I'm not just saying that because my mom's a teacher. I know that if I had to put up with some of the heathens that teachers deal with on a daily basis, I'd be asking for a lot more money.

A lot of what determines how much money teachers get is based on the citizens voting for school funding. Many communities turn down additional funding for schools.

Also - I'm not sure how Alabama is - but here and in Seymour they list (not sure if it's every year or not) the teacher's salaries. I was shocked how most teacher - even in Seymour - made really good money. It's even more when you consider they only work 9 months out of the year.

People are paid what the market will bear. If people stopped going to baseball games and footballl games - they'd be forced to pay the players less. People are more willing to fork over the expense to see a sports game and see the multi-millionaire whiners that make up the sports world than to pay more in taxes to support schools. The money just doesn't appear out of thin air to pay teachers. And since schools are not a profit machine and aren't making a tangible product that they can sell in the open market - they need to get their money only through taxes.

[Erawyn]

A major problem with education in Alabama is lack of funding

Same here. Our wonderful premier really screwed us over. The grading here seems pretty easy (80%+ is an A) but its pretty hard to get those marks. I'm not sure if thats true in the regular program but i'm in the IB (International Bacalureate) which I am told is harder and has "international" standards. Our schools need more funding really badly, yet next year something like 80 million is being cut from the budget. and teachers DO need unions, at least here they do. everybody needs unions, unions are GOOD!

[Khamûl]

If you don't mind my asking, where do you live Erawyn?

[Erawyn]

ontario.

[Sween]

Ok this is an intresting debate. all my points are been made regarding the english education system. I do not know the amercan education system but basically the year that you turn 14 in this country you start gcses. these last for 2 years and at the end of them you have the option to leave school or go onto higher education. First off the higher education is fine in the this country there is a lot of varity to chose from be these aprentiships, a levels or GNVQ's.

The primary problem with education is that the aim is to teach everyone the same thing and accept that people can learn this. I myself have some minor learning dificulties (dislexia) but its only mild in my case. But bassically everyone in this country has to sit GCSE's for a lot of people this is a waste of time. My friend god bless him is one of the hardest working people i know but try as he might he just could not pass the gcses. As is the case with a lot of people. And many people they simply do not suit. We had people with real bad mental disorders sitting exams i knew these people they struggled to write there own name.

Anyway back to the point for maybe 40% of people i dont think it works. they simply cannot learn this kind of stuff we are basically wasting there time. People that have problems doing thing written should be taught diffrent things. trades and pratical activities things they can manage.ive seen people sit in exams write there name then sit there for two hours simply because they cannot do it try as they might.

i myself struggle to write things down. but i have a verbal iq of 160 (i am asured thats quite good). i allways excled at oral work but when it comes to writing it down i do struggle.

hope this is not just a ramble and people reconise the point im trying to make

[azalea]

Having been an elementary school teacher for 4 years, as well as working in that school in other capacities for some years before that, I could go on at length about this subject. But you may sigh with relief, because I will not. It would take too much time right now, so I'll just dole out my opinion in bits and pieces.

But I will tell my idea about funding, because that's the reason we're having the voucher debate here in the US, and the reason there are so many lawsuits.

I worked in a school in a very rich district. Since the people were rich, there was a lot of property tax, and property tax makes the bulk of educational spending. This our school system had a lot of money to spend per pupil. Our school in particular had a lot of money because the PTA had a foundation so parents could make big donations and could be sure it would go to their child's school and not any other. These parents were also very vocal, so if something was needed, it would get done because they'd badger the county office otherwise.

A short drive away were schools that were quite poor. The parents weren't as cultured and educated. These children were the ones who really needed the extras, but since they lived in an area with a lower tax base, the money wasn't there. It was very sad to me to think of all we had at our school, where the children were sure to be successful anyway because of the importance the family placed on education, and the advantages the children already had from the time they were born, when not far away there were children who would have to do really well to beat the odds to have a successful educational career, and they had to make do with what they had in their schools.

Anyway, my idea is that all tax money collected that would be going toward education should go to the state fund and then dispersed equally to each school, depending on the level (elementary or what have you). That way every child in the state starts with the same advantages. And the rich school's PTAs can still have all that foundation money, so those parents can still feel like their children are getting the benefit of their wealth. That PTA money is spent on all sorts of extra stuff (technology being one -- our school was trying to decide on what kind of video editor to get when some schools didn't even have more than one computer per classroom -- and that thanks to lottery money). I'm also for vouchers, but for all students, not just those at select schools. School attendance shouldn't be so tied to where a child lives. We had people lie about their address so their kids could go to our school. I don't agree with that, but if we had a more open system it wouldn't be necessary.
I think schools should also have enrollment caps. Our school, elementary mind you, had over 1200 students. It was too crowded. Not far away was a school that had to transfer teachers because there weren't enough students. But district lines are so political. This needs to change. Students who live there should have first shot at attending their neighborhood school, but any extra spaces should be available for those outside of that area AND who provide their own transportation (otherwise it would be a transportation nightmare).

[Sween]

so let me get this right all your school funding is based on a completally local level? Depending on the tax paid by the perents effectivly decideds how much the school gets. Its a good point that lower income areas will never do as well as higher income areas (i dont want to sound snobbish here) of the class and belifes of the people.

IM not entirly sure but is how it works in england. we all pay tax which goes the government. we also pay what we call council tax but that covers roads and stuff not sure it has anything to do with education.

Anyway the money is distributed to the local education authorities i asume this is based on number of schools and pupils etc. then funding is sent down from that to the schools. Teachers here are salaried so that will take a portion of the budget. then the schools have to mange there bills and then send them or they may get a budget for this. then there is a surplus which is then in turn delt out where its needed. My old school is in pretty good nick so they havnt got much just a little to improve IT facalties.

Do you get any non govrnment funding? For instance here a lot of new funding has come in due to the national lotery.

America delegates more power to its states though doesnt it? so you dont have a national control on spending which seems to be what causing ur diffrences.

[azalea]

Right, the bulk of our money comes from local taxes. Sales tax accounts for some, but property tax is the bulk of it. (Besides it is argued that wealthier people spend more, thereby increasing sales tax revenue). There are federal funds available for "at-risk" schools, but that money really just serves a few students (in remedial programs, etc.). Then there are federal funds for special education. But the main expenditure is based on the county budget, which as I said is based mainly on property taxes. The county seat of the county where I taught actually was a separate district, and that was like the "downtown" area, much poorer than the county. And even within the county there was disparity, which is why people lied to get enrolled at our school. I don't really know why this happened besides just the parents donating so much directly to the school via the PTA (money, time, computers, etc.) But it seems strange that the rich people got the "good" school and the poor people get the "bad" schools.
I don't hold standardized tests to be flawless measures of anything, but they do serve as useful tools for teachers to see if they've been successful in their teaching of each subject, and to be sure students are meeting thier potential. Here is an interesting but absolutely true piece of info -- a school's average achievement test scores have a directly inverse relationship to the number of students at that school eligible for free and reduced lunches (which by the way are federally subsidized going back to your funding question). In other words, the more students at a certain school who are eligible for free/reduced lunch (that is, whose family is low income), the lower a school's overall achievement scores will be. Doesn't that speak volumes? Does it mean "rich people" are smarter? One could argue that they got rich because they were smart. But I don't think so. There are plenty of smart people who don't earn enough to live in a mansion (some teachers, for instance ).
So you can choose where you want to live (so your child can attend school at the "good" school) by looking at the percentage of students on free/reduced lunches, because you know that the schools with a low percentage have the better test scores (which could be taken to mean that the teaching is better, since achievement is supposed to measure what a student has learned).

Oh, and JD, consider being a teacher -- it's like the Peace Corps, the toughest job you'll ever love. It's challenging and rewarding -- you really are making a difference, and good teachers are really needed!

[Sween]

I believe there is a direct link between intelegent pearents and intelgent children. there is a lot to be said for genes we inherit much more than looks.

Alltough it is not allways the most intelegent that get paid the best it does normally work out that way.

Can tell ur a teacher u think its the hardest job in the world

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Sween
so let me get this right all your school funding is based on a completally local level? Depending on the tax paid by the perents effectivly decideds how much the school gets. Its a good point that lower income areas will never do as well as higher income areas (i dont want to sound snobbish here) of the class and belifes of the people.

In New Jersey - what is known as home rule is very strongly believed in. All our schools are locally funded and people do don't want to give up the control of their districts to the state. But new Jersey has also done studies that amount of money spent per pupil isn't a good indicator of how well a school does.

The best school in NJ - as reported by New Jersey monthly is an inner city school in Jersey City - DR RONALD MC NAIR ACAD HS

You can get the facts on any school in New Jersey here - Welcome to the New Jersey State Department of Education's Education Information Resource (EIR). Just select View Report Cards.

New Jersey School Directory

And finally here is a list of the best elementary schools in NJ by New Jersey Monthy -> Great Elementary Schools Two of these schools are in my area - Dutch Neck School: West Windsor-Plainsboro Regional District (K-3) and Community Park School: Princeton (K-5).

New Jersey is #1 in spending per student,but some people say that's because of school construction costs are more.

Azalea - at first I almost thought you were from NJ, because a lot of the same issues you mentioned NJ deals with. A lot of schools have recently cracked down on out of area students addending their schools. They've started doing back ground checks to make sure that parents are just driving there children in from a different town.

There has been a lot of corruption with the school boards in the inner city schools. NJ takes over failing schools and tries to revive them. If any one saw "Lean on Me" about Joe Clark - that was the Paterson School - Eastside High that fell apart and the state was about to take it over. As you can see more is spent per student than the state average, yet the acedemic scores are still terrible and fall way below the state average.

[Sween]

indeed money spent per student is no gartee of quality at all. But i would rather have a situation where everyone starts off with equalality. some students will take advantage and some student dont have the inclination to work but i think its important that nationally everyone starts off the same.

The way it is in america sounds like people in poorer areas dont seem to be given much of a chance im sure some dont care but im sure a few do and its for them ur system would seem to fail

[Wayfarer]

The only way that people will ever possibly manage a worthwhile education is when the students are actually interested in learning.

[Sween]

that is not entirly true. I know lot of people who want to learn but find it very hard. It is also difficult in rough areas for people who want to succed to succed when everyone else is misbehaving.

the only quarms i have with the english educational system is that it does not work for the less acedemic of people.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Sween
indeed money spent per student is no gartee of quality at all. But i would rather have a situation where everyone starts off with equalality. some students will take advantage and some student dont have the inclination to work but i think its important that nationally everyone starts off the same.

The way it is in america sounds like people in poorer areas dont seem to be given much of a chance im sure some dont care but im sure a few do and its for them ur system would seem to fail

A national school system would be impossible in the US. The US is too large and the cost of living is entirely different between states and regions. What it costs in New Jersey is not comparable to Indiana.

Also - I know in Indiana - more money goes into sports than in education. Seymour High School already had the largest gym in southern Indiana - but they felt they needed a second one which is the same size as the first. Now the two gyms are larger than the school but the library is a small percentage of the school. The cafeteria isn't even large enough to allow all the students to eat lunch in it.

[Sween]

well u make a valid point but let me asure u that there are vast difference bettween the cost living in areas of this country. It seems to me allthough america takes a much more serious approach to sport i think there should be some national controls if you want a proper organised education system.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Sween
well u make a valid point but let me asure u that there are vast difference bettween the cost living in areas of this country. It seems to me allthough america takes a much more serious approach to sport i think there should be some national controls if you want a proper organised education system.

Well that's where you get into problems with states rights. I'm for state rights and the way the federal government was supposed to work - which is the majority of decisions were left to the state and the federal government only deals with interstate and national issues. This country has a different history than the countries of Europe - and to just say powere should be just turned over to the Federal Government is not something that the states will be willing to do without a fight - especially in NJ which has a 350 year history. Towns in NJ do not even want the state to control what they do or what money they get for Education. Short Hills and Princeton want the best education for their children - they're not going to just give half their money away so the students in Paterson can have more money for education - yet their own children get less.

[Sween]

well they should. everyone in country should have equal health, social and educational rights. your poor areas will never be sorted if people take that kind of attitude.