Relativism VS. Absoulte - Page 2

markedel · 03-12-2002, 08:30 AM

I believe in god so morals are absolute.

afro-elf · 03-12-2002, 10:01 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Arathorn
yeah A-E, the only beings who naturally don't kill for food are plants and perhaps mushrooms; althoug it is now possible to eat without killing. Just let someone else do the killing for you. I'll get a burger and fries.

BTW, A-E, have you heard of balut from any of your filipino friends there? They're delicious but probably revolting to the other people here.

as for the first part were i said life feeds on life does not necessarily involve killing per se

but plants "feed" upon decay

for the second part

nope never heard of it

Quote:

But I can't argue this point with anyone unless they also believe in the Bible.

as a non believer i find this one of the most reasonable comments by a believer

Arathorn · 03-12-2002, 11:08 AM

Quote:

as for the first part were i said life feeds on life does not necessarily involve killing per se but plants "feed" upon decay

OK. But on plants, I believe this is only true because there are limited sources of nutrients.
All meant was that they can make their own food from non-organic materials.

I believe morals are absolute. Each individual just has a different version of what he/she believes.

Ararax · 03-12-2002, 12:20 PM

in the end i think its better to try to do good because thats what is the most provisional to happyness

Nibs · 03-12-2002, 12:26 PM

Balut? No, but I'll ask my cousin. I had chicken adobo the other day. Pretty good. Oh, and morals. Well, mine are absolute. So there.

Ararax · 03-12-2002, 01:21 PM

whats chicken apobo?

FrodoFriend · 03-12-2002, 03:01 PM

Wait . . . I'm confused.

How can one person say "My morals are absolute"? Aren't both relativism and absolutism comparisons? Either all morals are absolute, and people who deviate from that absolute are wrong, or they're relative, and no one's wrong, or it's a mixture of those two. In any case, don't you need to take all peoples' morality into consideration?

More importantly, what's balut? And chicken apobo?

**crickhollow** · 03-12-2002, 03:30 PM

It is impossible to separate myself from my beliefs, but I'll do my best to put forth a non-religious argument.

All-time classic bad guy scenario: Hitler. Was he wrong in what he did to the Jews? *Crick pauses dramatically* Are you absolutely sure? *shhhhh! Let me finish!* Because Hitler himself believed in what he was doing. for that matter, can you call anything anyone does "wrong"? Is there ever an instance (to use Wayfarer's example) when rape is NOT wrong? If you answer "no" to my last question, you have just laid down an absolute that you expect (and would even force, if you had the chance) humankind to follow.

Arathorn · 03-12-2002, 03:52 PM

It's chicken adobo and not chicken apobo. It's a dish where the ckien is marinated in a dark sauce and is bet served with rice. Balut is boiled unhatched duck embryos. I told you you'll find it revolting. But I say that it's absolutely delicious with a bit of salt.

emplynx · 03-12-2002, 04:52 PM

I know everyone will hate me for starting a discussion about God, but it is about morals also. If there is no god, why is taking life wrong? If there is no god, is anything wrong?

ALSO: From http://www.regit.com/regirest/philipin/dining.htm
Balut, a fertilized duck eggs with an embryo that is allowed to develop and is then boiled and eaten with salt.
Another less enjoyable description from http://www.tribo.org/vegetables/balut.html
Balut is boiled embryonated duck egg - about 9 days or 14 days embryo (I could be wrong). The traditional method of embryonating the egg is ingeneous. They put layers of hay on top of the egg and pour warm water on the hay several times a day. Then they harvest and boil, (if I remember correctly, I may be wrong), in 9 days for penoy or pinoy (just a tiny embryo, but the egg yolk has a peculiar (and better) taste than regular yolk) and 14 days for balut. At this time, the embryo is almost full duckling, with crunchy feet and feathers when eaten, the egg yolk is reduced and the egg white is hard, and the amniotic sac is filled with fluid. So be careful when opening balut, because you might spill the fluid which is very tasty.

Balut is considered as an aphrodisiac or at least, it increases one's stamina for sex and other rigorous activities (all those nutrients!). I know of several people who engorged on balut before they engage in a full night of amatory activities. There's a balut producer in California who has a webpage. The link is somewhere in the cuisine links at Tanikalang Ginto.

Wayfarer · 03-12-2002, 06:18 PM

The short version:

"All men are created equal, and endowed by thier creator with certain inalieable rights."

Inalienable means, in case you were wondering, that they cannot be set aside. They are absolute.

Morally, either something is wrong, or it is right. That's the end of it.

In fact, even a moral relativist believes in absolutes. Test it out sometime.

FrodoFriend · 03-12-2002, 07:21 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Wayfarer
"All men are created equal, and endowed by thier creator with certain inalieable rights."

Inalienable means, in case you were wondering, that they cannot be set aside. They are absolute.

Yeah, but why do we necessarily have to accept the Declaration of Independence as the final answer to everything? I can understand why people would see the Bible as an authoritative source (even though I wouldn't), but the Declaration was just written by human guys, whose opinions have equal standing with those of anyone else. Plus, the DofI was written two hundred years ago - many things have changed since then.

What I think is interesting is that nearly everyone here who endorses a moral absolute believes that the Western Christian set of morals is, of course, the absolute that everyone should go by. Other cultures and religions see some things that we do as immoral, but do we care? Oh, no, because we, of course, possess the truth! What some people may fail to realize is that all other people of different beliefs say the exact same thing. It's ethnocentrism, and it's extremely common, but I just wanted to point that out.

Wayfarer · 03-12-2002, 07:32 PM

First of all... I was merely quoting the Declaration of Independance because it neatly summarizes moral absolutism.

I would also like to offer you a challange... Show me one instance where western morality is seriously different from any other. And I don't mean stupid things like cows aren's sacred.

The fact of the matter is... most of what god says in the bible, especially in the ten commandments, are almost universal. Do not Murder, Do not Steal, Respect you Elders. These are common around the world, are they not?

FrodoFriend · 03-12-2002, 07:37 PM

In some societies it was considered perfectly all right to kill slaves and people of lower class, and there were no repercussions. Killing someone for revenge was also commonly considered justified.
In the Middle Ages, adultery was punished with death.
In some countries in the Middle East, families kill daughters who lost their virginity before marriage.

The people who believe(d) in those doctrines would see us as immoral for prosecuting people who kill out of revenge, and for letting adulterers live. What's to say their idea of morality isn't the "absolute"?

Wayfarer · 03-12-2002, 07:47 PM

You know, I really never took you for the PC kind, FrodoFriend. ]: )

I could argue that those really don't make them so different (after all... we kill and opress people who we regard as suphuman or unethical... we just no longer think think that of black, etc. and adulterers.)

But it occured to me that no matter how similar western morality is to others... I really shouldn't care because none of them are truly Christian morality.

Christian Morality, no matter how many rules or regulations you may wish to ascribe to it, says simply 'Love everybody'.

And that, my friend, is an absolute.

FrodoFriend · 03-12-2002, 07:54 PM

Touche, Wayfarer. I have no further arguments.

I still don't know whether or not there is an absolute, but if there is, that should be it, whether or not one is Christian or even religious.

And thank you, I think I may understand a bit better now why so many people follow the Christian faith.

Wayfarer · 03-12-2002, 08:02 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by FrodoFriend
And thank you, I think I may understand a bit better now why so many people follow the Christian faith.

Yeah, right. I can count, using only my assorted digets, the number of professing christians that make any attempt to do that.

Ok, so that's an overstatement. But the majority of christians fail to do so. It only makes things worse that so may of them believe merely because their parents or grandparents ofr ancestors back in the Holy Roman Empire did.

I honestly wish I could say that christians lived like... well... christians. But so few even realize that they're not. I know I didn't (But that's a long story).

afro-elf · 03-12-2002, 08:16 PM

Quote:

If there is no god, why is taking life wrong? If there is no god, is anything wrong?

it may not be wrong. it is just thats we like being alive more than dead.

to the later part its just a preference to what you like because you don't want it done to you.

Quote:

stupid things like cows aren's sacred.

and i guess The naming of several million species must have kept Adam busy for a while

that's really stupid too ya' know

Quote:

Christian Morality, no matter how many rules or regulations you may wish to ascribe to it, says simply 'Love everybody'.

I guess you can slaughter with perfect peace in your hearts

Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.

Sam 15:3

Quote:

All men are created equal,

that is simply not true

everyone does't have your acerbic wit my young friend.

FrodoFriend · 03-12-2002, 08:28 PM

Argh. This is just a big muddle.

I believe the book of Samuel is from the Old Testament, afro-elf? Most Christian doctrine today is from the New Testament, with Jesus as the star player (correct me if I'm wrong, all ye Christians!). That doesn't mean Christians are hypocrites, just that ideas of morality have changed.

"All men are created equal" - not physically or mentally, no. But metaphysically (if you believe in anything metaphysical), yes.

I do, however, agree with your first point.

Cows are cool!

Darth Tater · 03-12-2002, 08:30 PM

All you Christians who preach love should look up the last line of the oft quoted Song of Babylon. (psalm 136 I believe, something around there)

03-12-2002, 08:30 AM	#1
markedel 'Sober' Mullet Frosh Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Queen's Posts: 1,245	I believe in god so morals are absolute. __________________ "Earnur was a man like his father in valour, but not in wisdom"

03-12-2002, 12:20 PM	#4
Ararax Elven Warrior Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: NEW JERSEY! Posts: 375	in the end i think its better to try to do good because thats what is the most provisional to happyness __________________ Woah Deep

03-12-2002, 12:26 PM	#5
Nibs Head Hollara Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Texas Posts: 751	Balut? No, but I'll ask my cousin. I had chicken adobo the other day. Pretty good. Oh, and morals. Well, mine are absolute. So there. __________________ "People used to ring up and say 'Don't quit your day job' or 'sell your synth', but the joke's on them: we were fired and the synth is broken!" -John Flansburgh from They Might Be Giants Ever heard of Mormons? I'm one. Click here to know more about us. Last edited by Nibs : 03-12-2002 at 06:29 PM.

03-12-2002, 01:21 PM	#6
Ararax Elven Warrior Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: NEW JERSEY! Posts: 375	whats chicken apobo? __________________ Woah Deep

03-12-2002, 03:01 PM	#7
FrodoFriend Halfwitted Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Eryn Vorn Posts: 1,659	Wait . . . I'm confused. How can one person say "My morals are absolute"? Aren't both relativism and absolutism comparisons? Either all morals are absolute, and people who deviate from that absolute are wrong, or they're relative, and no one's wrong, or it's a mixture of those two. In any case, don't you need to take all peoples' morality into consideration? More importantly, what's balut? And chicken apobo? __________________ Fingolfin lives! ... in my finger! The Crossroads of Arda - Warning. Halfwit content. Not appropriate for people with IQ of over 18. The Fellowship of the Message Board Nyáréonié - The Tale of Tears

03-12-2002, 03:30 PM	#8
crickhollow The Buckleberry Fairy/Captain Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Washington State again (I miss Texas). Posts: 1,345	It is impossible to separate myself from my beliefs, but I'll do my best to put forth a non-religious argument. All-time classic bad guy scenario: Hitler. Was he wrong in what he did to the Jews? Crick pauses dramatically Are you absolutely sure? shhhhh! Let me finish! Because Hitler himself believed in what he was doing. for that matter, can you call anything anyone does "wrong"? Is there ever an instance (to use Wayfarer's example) when rape is NOT wrong? If you answer "no" to my last question, you have just laid down an absolute that you expect (and would even force, if you had the chance) humankind to follow. __________________ A day will come at last when I Shall take the hidden paths that run West of the Moon, East of the Sun.

03-12-2002, 03:52 PM	#9
Arathorn Bard of Mangled Songs Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: West of Middle Earth...oh alright...Manila Posts: 2,679	It's chicken adobo and not chicken apobo. It's a dish where the ckien is marinated in a dark sauce and is bet served with rice. Balut is boiled unhatched duck embryos. I told you you'll find it revolting. But I say that it's absolutely delicious with a bit of salt. __________________ Power attracts the corruptible. Absolute power attracts the absolutely corruptible. -Missionaria Protectiva, Frank Herbert *Accio, Ash Nazg!* Elennuru s?la lúmenn' omentielvo* (The Death Star shines on the hour of our meeting) - Darth Arathorn Put aside the ranger... Start looking for Mumakil action figures...

03-12-2002, 04:52 PM	#10
emplynx Self-Appointed Lord of the Free Peoples of the General Messages Join Date: Nov 2001 Posts: 1,214	I know everyone will hate me for starting a discussion about God, but it is about morals also. If there is no god, why is taking life wrong? If there is no god, is anything wrong? ALSO: From http://www.regit.com/regirest/philipin/dining.htm Balut, a fertilized duck eggs with an embryo that is allowed to develop and is then boiled and eaten with salt. Another less enjoyable description from http://www.tribo.org/vegetables/balut.html Balut is boiled embryonated duck egg - about 9 days or 14 days embryo (I could be wrong). The traditional method of embryonating the egg is ingeneous. They put layers of hay on top of the egg and pour warm water on the hay several times a day. Then they harvest and boil, (if I remember correctly, I may be wrong), in 9 days for penoy or pinoy (just a tiny embryo, but the egg yolk has a peculiar (and better) taste than regular yolk) and 14 days for balut. At this time, the embryo is almost full duckling, with crunchy feet and feathers when eaten, the egg yolk is reduced and the egg white is hard, and the amniotic sac is filled with fluid. So be careful when opening balut, because you might spill the fluid which is very tasty. Balut is considered as an aphrodisiac or at least, it increases one's stamina for sex and other rigorous activities (all those nutrients!). I know of several people who engorged on balut before they engage in a full night of amatory activities. There's a balut producer in California who has a webpage. The link is somewhere in the cuisine links at Tanikalang Ginto.

03-12-2002, 06:18 PM	#11
Wayfarer The Insufferable Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 3,333	The short version: "All men are created equal, and endowed by thier creator with certain inalieable rights." Inalienable means, in case you were wondering, that they cannot be set aside. They are absolute. Morally, either something is wrong, or it is right. That's the end of it. In fact, even a moral relativist believes in absolutes. Test it out sometime. __________________ Disgraced he may be, yet is not dethroned, and keeps the rags of lordship once he owned

03-12-2002, 07:32 PM	#13
Wayfarer The Insufferable Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 3,333	First of all... I was merely quoting the Declaration of Independance because it neatly summarizes moral absolutism. I would also like to offer you a challange... Show me one instance where western morality is seriously different from any other. And I don't mean stupid things like cows aren's sacred. The fact of the matter is... most of what god says in the bible, especially in the ten commandments, are almost universal. Do not Murder, Do not Steal, Respect you Elders. These are common around the world, are they not? __________________ Disgraced he may be, yet is not dethroned, and keeps the rags of lordship once he owned

03-12-2002, 07:37 PM	#14
FrodoFriend Halfwitted Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Eryn Vorn Posts: 1,659	In some societies it was considered perfectly all right to kill slaves and people of lower class, and there were no repercussions. Killing someone for revenge was also commonly considered justified. In the Middle Ages, adultery was punished with death. In some countries in the Middle East, families kill daughters who lost their virginity before marriage. The people who believe(d) in those doctrines would see us as immoral for prosecuting people who kill out of revenge, and for letting adulterers live. What's to say their idea of morality isn't the "absolute"? __________________ Fingolfin lives! ... in my finger! The Crossroads of Arda - Warning. Halfwit content. Not appropriate for people with IQ of over 18. The Fellowship of the Message Board Nyáréonié - The Tale of Tears Last edited by FrodoFriend : 03-12-2002 at 07:39 PM.

03-12-2002, 07:47 PM	#15
Wayfarer The Insufferable Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 3,333	You know, I really never took you for the PC kind, FrodoFriend. ]: ) I could argue that those really don't make them so different (after all... we kill and opress people who we regard as suphuman or unethical... we just no longer think think that of black, etc. and adulterers.) But it occured to me that no matter how similar western morality is to others... I really shouldn't care because none of them are truly Christian morality. Christian Morality, no matter how many rules or regulations you may wish to ascribe to it, says simply 'Love everybody'. And that, my friend, is an absolute. __________________ Disgraced he may be, yet is not dethroned, and keeps the rags of lordship once he owned

03-12-2002, 07:54 PM	#16
FrodoFriend Halfwitted Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Eryn Vorn Posts: 1,659	Touche, Wayfarer. I have no further arguments. I still don't know whether or not there is an absolute, but if there is, that should be it, whether or not one is Christian or even religious. And thank you, I think I may understand a bit better now why so many people follow the Christian faith. __________________ Fingolfin lives! ... in my finger! The Crossroads of Arda - Warning. Halfwit content. Not appropriate for people with IQ of over 18. The Fellowship of the Message Board Nyáréonié - The Tale of Tears

03-12-2002, 08:28 PM	#19
FrodoFriend Halfwitted Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Eryn Vorn Posts: 1,659	Argh. This is just a big muddle. I believe the book of Samuel is from the Old Testament, afro-elf? Most Christian doctrine today is from the New Testament, with Jesus as the star player (correct me if I'm wrong, all ye Christians!). That doesn't mean Christians are hypocrites, just that ideas of morality have changed. "All men are created equal" - not physically or mentally, no. But metaphysically (if you believe in anything metaphysical), yes. I do, however, agree with your first point. Cows are cool! __________________ Fingolfin lives! ... in my finger! The Crossroads of Arda - Warning. Halfwit content. Not appropriate for people with IQ of over 18. The Fellowship of the Message Board Nyáréonié - The Tale of Tears

03-12-2002, 08:30 PM	#20
Darth Tater The man Join Date: Sep 1999 Location: MA Posts: 4,572	All you Christians who preach love should look up the last line of the oft quoted Song of Babylon. (psalm 136 I believe, something around there) __________________ Visit the worlds greatest webpage! No, not The Tolkien Trail! Just click this! The Tolkien Trail ~Camelot

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