"Sauron knows them not, they are older than he"

[ChildofEru]

An interesting theory I heard was that Tom Bombadil is a Vala (either Tulkas or Aulë)

I've heard this as well.

[Wayfarer]

Originally posted by Inoldonil
*stomps on Shannon's foot* Go to school, dolt!

I'll be a senior pretty quick (before the end of the semester). What are you talking about?

[Gandalf the White]

Originally posted by ChildofEru

I've heard this as well.

I read that too - it seems like quite a strong opinion with all the evidences . But there are many other strong opinions. Who knows what Tolkein intended?

About the creatures that Sauron may not know about, the following quote might be helpful (from the Silmarillion):

"For of the Maiar many were drawn to his splendour in the days of his greatness, and remained in that allegiance down into the darkness; and others he corrupted afterwards to his service with lies and treacherous gifts. Dreadful among these spirits were the Valarauko, the scourges of fire that in Middle-earth were called the Balrogs, demons of terror."

So that was in the time of Morgorth. Tolkein only mentions the Balrogs, but there could be Maiar who turned out worse than them and Sauron never knew of them ...

[Ñólendil]

Gandalf, I was being sarcastic. That Tom is Aulë or Tulkas or a Vala at all is one of the more absurd theories I've heard. Even besides Tolkien's comment that he was an aborigine and the strong implication his life began in Arda, there's common sense. Tom Bombadil cannot be two people at once. There are the Valar outside the Circles of the World in the Unseen, and there's Tom in Middle-earth. You can't be both. I refuse to believe that the Maker of the Dwarf-fathers or the Champion of the Valar was living by the Withywindle. Tom is not Aule or Tulkas anymore then he is Gimli or Éomer, Goldberry isn't Yavanna or Nessa anymore then she is Galadriel or Éowyn. It makes no sense whatsoever.

What are you talking about?

I was making fun of the theory you heard of. I exaggerated, it's not all that bad. But think of the Music of the Ainur. Everything in there came from the Ainur (whether the uncorrupt ones, Melkor's followers or Melkor himself) or direct from Eru. But the stuff that came direct from Eru entered in with the Third Theme, which had much to do with the Children of Ilúvatar. But the Children weren't considered older than Sauron because they arose from the Music. Sauron like every other Ainu after all took part in the Music. There's arguments against my arguments [for instance you probably meant that Tom could have arose immediately from the Music, could have been created in that instant in Ea before the Ainur arrived there. One of the problems is that Eru hadn't said 'Ea' yet] , yours isn't nearly as bad as 'Tom's a Vala', but I like making fun of you.

[Gandalf the White]

Well thats fair enough - I said there are lots of opinions!

I've only read 2 or 3 essays on the topic, so I dont know and I'm not a Tolkein scholar of any level...

I read the article at http://www.phil.unt.edu/~hargrove/bombadil.html

and thought it was quite good.

[bropous]

As the "head" of my order, the
EIDRIORCQWSDAKLMEDDCWWTIWOATTOPWFIO [thanks for the "promotion", O Site Gods!], "bropous the plaid", I'll wade in on the whole "Bombadil as Aule/Tulkas" debate.

Quite simply, it may be rumored, but has no basis in the witings of Tolkien. To tell you the thruth, the idea of either Aule or Tuklas telling ANYONE "don't crush my lillies!" just don't fit, especially for Tulkas!

No, Bombadil is a separate being, not Elf, nor Man, nor Ent, nor Hobbit. He is separate, "the Eldest and Fatherless", and is the oldest being in Middle-Earth, but then again, here is the "inconsitency" Tolkien himself purposely left in to see if we were paying attention. Tolkien says later in the books that it is Fangorn/Treebeard who is "oldest of living beings walking under the Sun".

I thought for a moment that Bombadil had awakened in the twilight, and that Treebeard had awakened at the rising of the New Sun. However, even the Elves awoke prior to the Sun. Theory dashed.

It's just an inconsistency. And we ARE paying attention, O Master!

Also, Gandalf the Grey, as Morgoth/Melkor's chief lieutenant, Sauron/Gorthaur the Cruel knew ALL of Morgoth's servants, and none were older than he nor unknown to him. Hey may have FORGOTTEN about them, but he knew them at least back i nthe First Age. And, it is impossible to reconcile LotR and the Silmarillion on this issue. Another inconsistency.

[bropous]

Not Only...But Also...

When the Ainur "went into the World", they found it wasn't even in existence, they were only shown a VISION of the world to come. They had to create it themselves. Therefore, no thing IN or ON the Earth could be older than any Valar or Maiar. A creation cannot be "older" than the creator.