The Singers Thread

[Voronwen]

Welcome to the Singers' Thread, Pip! Yes, this thread was my idea, for good or ill! I just thought that rather than rambling on taking up space on the Classical Music thread, that Tessar and i, and anyone else who might like to join us, could come over here and discuss the matters that concern classical singers. But other types of singers are welcome, too - we can all learn something from one another!

Originally Posted by Tessar

Some day I would love to be a voice teacher, but I wont do it unless I think I can be a great teacher. I hope I can be, but I will never become one of those people who only goes into teaching because they can't sing any more.

I completely agree with everything you've said. I can't count how many times people have told me, "You really should teach!" But i don't feel that teaching is my gift. Unless i could be one of the really good voice teachers, i would rather not teach at all. And i don't honestly feel as if i have the right background to be that. So i feel that it's only right to just not go there at all. I also agree that a person has to be called to teaching and not just do it because for whatever reason they're not out there singing anymore, etc.

I wonder if having a breakthrough to solidify the E will have any other effects on your range or general singing.

I've been there before, actually. What it requires of me is that i use an extremely high placement, with NO involvement from the other registers whatsoever. It's placed so high that it feels like there's a beam of light coming out of the front of my forehead. That little point on the forehead practically buzzes. But the problem with this is that, for all that i am getting the note (yay!), i think it may be simply a whistletone. I don't really think it's part of my "real" range, at least not anymore. Most sopranos in their late teens and early 20s have easy access to the extreme stratosphere by virtue of very young and flexible vocal cords (think of little kids screaming), and i was one of them - but usually with physical maturity and as the voice becomes better balanced, a singer who is not meant to be a coloratura eventually loses that access. True coloraturas will keep those notes as part of their working range well into their 40s and beyond, whether their voices are lighter (ie. Dessay) or heavier (Sills, June Anderson, Luciana Serra, etc), but a lyric soprano will eventually lose them (you don't hear Fleming hitting the E6's anymore, either, though she does use the occasional Eb) and yet gain other special qualities.

I think in my case i felt that because it's something that i started out having, that i had to work desperately in order to hold on to it, at all costs - even going into whistletone in order to keep it (but this was terribly unwise, as vocal transitions are something we need to simply work with and accept). Why do i feel that it's whistletone? Because it is so disconnected from the rest of my voice. Also, the more i work with it (what i now call my 'false' extension - E6, F6, etc...), the effect it has on the rest of my range is an imbalancing one. By that i mean, i wind up feeling less connection overall between my registers, weakness or trouble in places i never felt it before, etc. It ends with me going back to basics for a while to reallign my voice. When my voice is alligned and in well-working order, my highest "real" note is an Eb6. My instinct tells me that pushing myself beyond that might not be entirely healthy for my voice, so i have been listening to that.

Believe me i had spent literally *years* wondering whether it was a fault of my own ("I should be trying harder!"), or my teacher's (several teachers later...), etc, wondering whether i was simply missing something that would suddenly make everything click and i'd have a whole new world of repertoire to have fun with. But alas, no. With time, however, having the highest note humanly possible was not so important to me anymore. Eventually i learned that it's the whole voice that matters - not whether or not i could sing notes that only dogs could hear.

What's cute is that I know a lyric soprano who gave me some lessons, and she told me that when she was young she loved to sing the A5. Now she loves to sing the G5 (she was 45 at the time). According to her husband, her voice was annoying when she was young! He said her sound lost a lot of the 'over bright' character that annoyed him as she went into her 30's, and her voice is still very brilliant and shimmers, but there's also a lovely mature color to it now.

She actually does sound a LOT like me (though i am nowhere near 45 yet, so we'll see whether i end up preferring the G over the A in the future... for now, yes, i am all about that A! ). When i was in my 20s, my voice had that exceptionally bright sound that you're talking about, which teachers had told me was a characteristic of a young soprano. Now in my 30s i have had the exact same change she has had - there is now that more mature quality that is starting to come in. My teacher calls it a certain "warmth". Even my husband, who is not a trained singer, has noticed a change in my sound, which he called "fuller and more assured" after hearing me sing 'Come Unto Him' from Messiah on Christmas eve (and i don't have a score in front of me, but i don't think this aria goes any higher than the G). Most people still consider it a 'bright' voice, but it has mellowed out some.

The cost, however, of gaining this new dimension to my sound, was the loss of the high E's and F's.

Her story was a bit like yours, actually... she really cautioned me not to push myself too hard for high notes. When she was studying in the conservatory the big thing was that F6, and apparently some days she could push herself up to the A6, but once she got out of school she realized she really didn't need those notes.

Is she my long-lost twin or something? I *never* had an A6, but i did have a G6 ... on some days i can still touch it on a lip-trill! But i can only think of one piece that actually requires a G6 - Mozart's concert aria, Popoli di Tessaglia. While i would LOVE to be able to sing that, i realize that there is much more to life as a soprano than Queen of the Night and the handful of arias written for Aloysia Weber Lange

Don't get me wrong - I can on some days still get through Vorrei spiegarvi, o Dio!, which a teacher once handed to me and said, "This is perfect for your temperament." It may be, but i can't sustain a repertoire filled with high E's, especially since my voice has been filling out some.

Here's my angle: If you are physically capable of singing Song to the Moon (which I absolutely adore) then why not? So you'll never perform the role. What about recitals? Just because you can't sing something under one situation (i.e. standing behind a full orchestra in a large opera house) why should you be prevented from singing it in a more optimal setting? Like with a minimal orchestration, or a piano, or with slight amplification, or any other dozen possibilities. It's different if the song doesn't sound good in your voice. Then I could understand not learning it. But if it does sound good, then why not?

I have to agree with you. I've also had several coaches, etc, hear me and immediately say, "You NEED to sing Depuis le Jour!". Indeed, i've worked on that aria and, while it's a lighter sound than most people are used to hearing, it fits my voice very well. Yet, this is another aria that comes with huge orchestration. People have also often suggested the Che il bel sogno di Doretta from Puccini's La Rondine. Believe me when i say, i love these arias! But as with the Song to the Moon (talk about being suited to my temperament! ), it's the same story - these "bigger" arias that require the floated high notes make people want to assign them to a lighter voice, but in reality the roles they come from are NOT light. The full orchestration would kill me!

I think sometimes people get too caught up in this cycle of believing in an idealistic setting for an aria.

I think you're right. There's so much of this that has to do with what has become generally accepted performance practice.

Take Renee Fleming. I'm sure she would never actually play the role of Candeed, but she sings a gorgeous "Glitter and Be Gay." But a lot of people say that she should never sing that piece because the role isn't right for her voice.

Exactly - she did a beautiful job with it!

I think, too, what concerns voice teachers is that they are worried that the student will go for a "bigger" sound than their voice should be making, just to fit the generally accepted idea of what these arias should sound like. The way around this though, is to sing these arias in your OWN voice. As long as the singer stays within what constitutes healthy singing for their own instrument, and doesn't "push" for a bigger sound, they'll be alright. It's when they push to try to conform to the generally accepted sound for a role, or to be heard over the orchestration, that it can lead to serious vocal problems.

I think there's a fine line between honoring the music and attempting to keep music in a glass prison. Of course that once again falls under the category of personal taste.

Indeed. I think there is too much of this going on today. If you look back at the careers of singers from 50 years ago, they sang everything they could sing healthfully. There wasn't so much emphasis on which "kind" of voice fits which role.

But now, yes, back to vowels...

But what my teacher thinks, and I agree with, is that you can use vowels to create the exact same effect. He showed me how different vowels have different 'resonances'... for instance 'ah' is a very bright vowel and actually sounds like a slightly higher pitch than 'aw' or 'auh' does. So coloring of the voice has just about everything to do with threading a darker or brighter vowel into the heart of whatever other vowel you're actually singing.

Yes, you can adjust these things with vowels. It's safer than doing the other things you mentioned, but yes, it is an advanced concept.

I am still far from being at a point where I can sing with good technique AND worry about advanced things like coloring my vowels excessively

Worry about the technique for now, other things like the vowels will fall into place via coachings. I can't tell you how many times i've had a coach or teacher have me pronounce a vowel very differently from my instinct within the context of a piece. For instance when i was first working on Pamina's aria, my teacher had me adjust the vowel on the word "herzen". The way i was pronouncing it was correct for German, but the way it was coming out in my voice was not as resonant as it could have been. She had me brighten the vowel, almost too much, had me get used to it that way, and then the following week we pulled back, almost to where i had started. She wanted me to get the feel of where the vowel was supposed to be resonating. I still keep a tiny hint of that overly-bright vowel in it, and it's much better than it was.

I'm really excited to be working with this guy. I feel like if I can stick with him and keep making progress he'll help me grow to be an actual artist and performer.

It does sound like you have a VERY good working relationship!

Self confidence is one thing, but I am very aware (and hopefully will always be) that even if you're incredible, and even if you experience great success, that doesn't make you the best. It means you're good, but it doesn't make you the best.

This is SO important to remember. Even the top-level pros are not perfect all the time. Even they have bad habits to work through, etc. Classical singing is such an exacting endeavor. We are never truly perfect. This is why even the Dessays and the Flemings of the world still have voice teachers.

[Finrod Felagund]

Oooh...a singers' thread! This is just my cup of tea!

[Voronwen]

Originally Posted by Finrod Felagund

Oooh...a singers' thread! This is just my cup of tea!

Welcome, then! What kind of voice are you? Tell us about yourself.

[Pip]

Gah, you guys are intimidating me with all you're writing.

[Tessar]

Well I know I write so much because I'm a chatterbox by nature . I don't know what Voronwen's excuse is!

But seriously, it doesn't all have to be a dissertation on technique. Anything about singing at any level is certainly welcome for discussing .

[Voronwen]

Originally Posted by Tessar

Well I know I write so much because I'm a chatterbox by nature . I don't know what Voronwen's excuse is!

Well, i don't usually tend to be extroverted... but, get me going about the details of singing and i can talk as much as Tessar!

But seriously, it doesn't all have to be a dissertation on technique. Anything about singing at any level is certainly welcome for discussing .

Absolutely! Please *do not* feel at all intimidated! ~ That is not the purpose of this thread. ~ The idea behind this thread is so that everyone can share experiences, whether frustrations or triumphs, related to the specific cares of singers everywhere. Please, all are invited to jump in freely at any time! I had noticed there were a few other off-topic threads dedicated to different other hobbies/interests, so i thought, why not singing? I'm so sorry if you felt intimidated - please don't! I hope you'll stay!

[Tessar]

Originally Posted by Voronwen

I have to agree with you. I've also had several coaches, etc, hear me and immediately say, "You NEED to sing Depuis le Jour!". Indeed, i've worked on that aria and, while it's a lighter sound than most people are used to hearing, it fits my voice very well.

I have to admit I was not familiar with this aria, but I listened to a few versions of it on youtube and it is definitely GORGEOUS. I could definitely hear how it would be beautiful with a smaller voice as well... although mostly mid to larger voices sang it.

I think, too, what concerns voice teachers is that they are worried that the student will go for a "bigger" sound than their voice should be making, just to fit the generally accepted idea of what these arias should sound like. The way around this though, is to sing these arias in your OWN voice. As long as the singer stays within what constitutes healthy singing for their own instrument, and doesn't "push" for a bigger sound, they'll be alright. It's when they push to try to conform to the generally accepted sound for a role, or to be heard over the orchestration, that it can lead to serious vocal problems.

I definitely agree... One thing in particular that has set my two latest voice teachers out (the bass who was such a great teacher, and this baritone who is also a great teacher) is that they let me get something in my voice, and then they insist that I do it 'with ease'.

It has definitely made a difference for me, and will help me prevent from bowing out my vocal cords. It's so easy to get caught up in trying to sing fully that it turns into bellowing, and that's definitely not healthy.

What I've found though is that as my placement gets better, it's actually almost impossible to oversing. The minute I start pushing too hard my voice loses the placement, and I can instantly tell that I need to pull back a little.

Even the top-level pros are not perfect all the time. Even they have bad habits to work through, etc. Classical singing is such an exacting endeavor. We are never truly perfect. This is why even the Dessays and the Flemings of the world still have voice teachers.

That's one thing I really love about singing... no matter how great you are there will always be something to strive for. I think a problem a lot of people run into is that they stop actively trying to improve their voice... they get good enough to have a career, and they do occasionally still make an improvement... but then they wonder why their voice starts wobbling before they're even fifty.




So, one thing I've discovered is that I also tighten my lips when I speak. Weird! What a strange habit I've gotten into... it's not so bad when I speak, and it doesn't really mess with my diction too much, but I've noticed that when I relax my lips a bit my speaking voice does seem to become more resonant and my diction is cleaner.

I think it really is just like that old quote, "To sing well you must speak well." I think a lot of things (although not everything...) translates over. Obviously my jaw can't be as loose when I speak as when I sing, because I would sound like I had a broken jaw, but there is definitely a looseness to the jaw in proper speaking that a lot of people don't have.



I'm trying to figure out how to safely use my singing voice at a very low volume. I'm thinking about rejoining a chant choir I sang in for five years. I quit because I couldn't blend any more and I got frustrated with the lack of musical knowledge. I thought I might give it a try again because I do love the music.

So today I was playing around and found some interesting things... if I kind of speak-sing with good support, and paying attention to the vowels, I can create a very small sound that is still resonant and full. I don't think it's really the same as a pianissimo because it lacks the carrying power, but it seems like something that's okay for my voice.

It also makes it easier to diminish, or even entirely remove, the vibrato. It's still kind of eating my lunch, in terms of ease, to stop the vibrato but it's not painful and it doesn't seem to dry my throat out... so we'll see. I'm proceeding with extreme caution.

[Voronwen]

Originally Posted by Tessar

I have to admit I was not familiar with this aria, but I listened to a few versions of it on youtube and it is definitely GORGEOUS. I could definitely hear how it would be beautiful with a smaller voice as well... although mostly mid to larger voices sang it.

Yes - typically, it is sung by fuller voices, but it's one of those things that many kinds of sopranos can sing. The range is typically lyric, so anyone who is comfortable in that range (very small coloratura voices or very large dramatics need not apply!) should be able to sing it well.

One thing in particular that has set my two latest voice teachers out (the bass who was such a great teacher, and this baritone who is also a great teacher) is that they let me get something in my voice, and then they insist that I do it 'with ease'.

I love this phrase! "With ease". That's a great one to keep in mind! It feels so bouyant and fluffy just thinking about it! Singing should never hurt, or feel strained. It does require a greater physical effort than most people think, as many students find once they involve the entire body, this is not the kind of 'effort' that pushing from the throat feels like. It's the kind of effort that is more like ice skating, or carrying a tray - you need a certain graceful sense of balance, and the effort, or expenditure of energy, is used for maintaining that balance.

It has definitely made a difference for me, and will help me prevent from bowing out my vocal cords. It's so easy to get caught up in trying to sing fully that it turns into bellowing, and that's definitely not healthy.

No, it definitely is not. The name of the game is finesse

What I've found though is that as my placement gets better, it's actually almost impossible to oversing. The minute I start pushing too hard my voice loses the placement, and I can instantly tell that I need to pull back a little.

This is so true! Oversinging is much like the proverbial card house. Eventually, it will "fall". It's not something that can be gracefully nor healthfully sustained. (And believe me, every singer goes through this!).

That's one thing I really love about singing... no matter how great you are there will always be something to strive for. I think a problem a lot of people run into is that they stop actively trying to improve their voice... they get good enough to have a career, and they do occasionally still make an improvement... but then they wonder why their voice starts wobbling before they're even fifty.

I think in part, you're right - if one becomes complacent and stops working on technique, bad habits enter in, all sorts of things can go wrong. I've heard of this happening to the "stars" all too often, unfortunately... I'm sure you've heard of what's going on currently with Roberto Alagna... very sad.

So, one thing I've discovered is that I also tighten my lips when I speak. Weird! What a strange habit I've gotten into... it's not so bad when I speak, and it doesn't really mess with my diction too much, but I've noticed that when I relax my lips a bit my speaking voice does seem to become more resonant and my diction is cleaner.

That makes sense. Tight lips is not, i admit, something i've heard of anyone dealing with before but we definitely all have our individual quirks! My own little bug that is similar is that i have a small mouth, and thus, a shortish tongue. I've had to be aware of not only tongue base tension but also making sure that the tip of my tongue is not tense! Otherwise, it affects certain aspects of my diction (for instance, soft plosives - not good, especially when singing in Italian! ).

I think it really is just like that old quote, "To sing well you must speak well." I think a lot of things (although not everything...) translates over. Obviously my jaw can't be as loose when I speak as when I sing, because I would sound like I had a broken jaw, but there is definitely a looseness to the jaw in proper speaking that a lot of people don't have.

This is true. My teacher has mentioned the speaking connection as well. Something else i notice is that i think those of us who sing (classically) tend to have a slightly higher palette even when speaking.

I'm trying to figure out how to safely use my singing voice at a very low volume. I'm thinking about rejoining a chant choir I sang in for five years. I quit because I couldn't blend any more and I got frustrated with the lack of musical knowledge. I thought I might give it a try again because I do love the music.

I cannot condone your decision if you rejoin the choir. I can completely relate to your reasons for quitting before - I had quit community choirs for the exact same reasons. But the main reason i cannot condone choir singing, *especially while you are building your technique*, is because it can actually undo many of the good vocal habits you are trying to work into your voice! My personal experience was that my technique suffered while i was singing in choirs, and improved once i quit. I did leave on good terms and one of the choirs (the one at my church) occasionally asks me to come back and sing a solo, and i do when given the chance, but being a regular choir member anymore is not something i can do without sacrificing some of the security of my technique. It's sad, but unfortunately true.

So today I was playing around and found some interesting things... if I kind of speak-sing with good support, and paying attention to the vowels, I can create a very small sound that is still resonant and full. I don't think it's really the same as a pianissimo because it lacks the carrying power, but it seems like something that's okay for my voice.

It is good to experiment with volumes, but be careful that you don't end up inadvertently creating tension for yourself. Please run this by your teacher.

It also makes it easier to diminish, or even entirely remove, the vibrato. It's still kind of eating my lunch, in terms of ease, to stop the vibrato but it's not painful and it doesn't seem to dry my throat out... so we'll see. I'm proceeding with extreme caution.

Why on earth would you want to sing without the natural vibrato? That can be potential unhealthy and tension-causing. I am of the school of thought that we should do nothing to manipulate the vibrato, whatsoever. I know that a lot of early music choirs (choirs again! ) seem to require straight tone, but it is unhealthy (and not actually founded in historical fact! ) and i think as this is becoming known, it's becoming less widespread. This does not mean that you cannot use an occasional straight tone *for effect* - you can certainly do this without hurting yourself - i do it in Baroque and Renaissance arias and songs all the time. But it's icing - like a trill. It's not something you'd want to do on every note.

[Pip]

I'm not taking any lessons right now (the lessons I took last semester made me want to stratch my eyes out though) but I'm doing some interesting stuff in worship team. I sing with two groups. One's more oragniazed and the other is fours people singing toa guitar. In the first one I sing soprano and it's always nice because even though it's not training I can still practice my high range. I can hit about a high C on a good day. However, I (and others) have found that my voice has a nice depth in it's lower range so the leader of the smaller group wants me to sing with it more often. I'm excited because I get to expand my range a little bit more.

[Tessar]

Originally Posted by Pip

I can hit about a high C on a good day. However, I (and others) have found that my voice has a nice depth in it's lower range so the leader of the smaller group wants me to sing with it more often. I'm excited because I get to expand my range a little bit more.

That's really cool. It's always fun to work on the different sides of your range .


Why didn't you like taking voice lessons? Not a good teacher?




Voronwen: I'll write more later, and answer some of the things you said in your last post, but I think the suspicion was correct and the placement I had was just a 'waypoint'. Today during the lesson we got it to move up a little higher... now instead of being right on my hard palate, it feels like it's a little above it.

So at this point there's no telling where my real placement lies, but it may be more towards the area you were saying you feel it in. My teacher and I discussed the possibility that this placement is just another step along the path, so we're going to keep playing with it and see where we end up.

[Voronwen]

Originally Posted by Tessar

My teacher and I discussed the possibility that this placement is just another step along the path, so we're going to keep playing with it and see where we end up.

Bravo! I'm looking forward to hearing more about this.


Pip - *Please* beware of group directors who want to use your lower range if you are certain you're really a soprano. This can be potentially unhealty, not to mention cause all sorts of vocal identity crises

Please bear in mind that as sopranos, we possess most if not all of the same notes that other female voices do, as well as the highs. The real difference is in where your voice naturally "blooms" (where in the range the sound is the fullest and most beautiful when singing properly), and the fact that as sopranos, our "breaks" (ie. the transitional points between chest and head voice) are in a higher place. This last, especially, has to do with how the voice is built, its inherent nature, and makes all the difference as to where the voice will sound its best and be most comfortable. Ignoring or working against these natural aspects of your instrument (which, like height, is something we cannot change and must be accepted) over the long term can be potentially damaging.

Just because the director needs more of a certain voice in his choir does not mean he should use you there just because you are physically capable of it. It's not good for you over time.

(Can you tell that i *despise* directors who do this...? )

They're not keeping your best interests as a singer in mind. So, that said, since they're only going to think about themselves, *YOU* need to think about what's best for your voice and take responsibility for its well-being - and not let them boss you around. The voice is a blessing, a powerful yet delicate blessing. It's perfectly OK to stand up to people who are telling you to use your voice in a manner that is not good for it. Please promise me you'll keep that in mind, OK?

I hope you can find a good teacher soon! They're worth their weight in gold.

[Pip]

Originally Posted by Tessar

Why didn't you like taking voice lessons? Not a good teacher?

It wasn't voice lessons per se, it was an ensemble group, and yea, I wasn't real thrilled with the teacher. It seemed like we took up half the period talking about how awful the music program was at the school and when we worked on a song we didn't really go over what to do to improve the song, we just sang it over and over until everyone was sick of it for that day. It could have been that I always came after work so I was tired but it wasn't much of a learning experience.

Originally Posted by Voronwen

Just because the director needs more of a certain voice in his choir does not mean he should use you there just because you are physically capable of it. It's not good for you over time.

They're not keeping your best interests as a singer in mind. So, that said, since they're only going to think about themselves, *YOU* need to think about what's best for your voice and take responsibility for its well-being - and not let them boss you around. The voice is a blessing, a powerful yet delicate blessing. It's perfectly OK to stand up to people who are telling you to use your voice in a manner that is not good for it. Please promise me you'll keep that in mind, OK?

I will indeed keep this in mind Voronwen.
Although, I don't think he's doing it because we need a lower voice, because we don't really, he just likes the depth my voice has at a lower range and he likes what it adds. Another director has comented on my voice being lower for solos. My voice breaks at around middle F (is that the right way to say it?) and I actually have a lower talking voice that what I usually use to sing. That being said, I understand what you're saying about using a lower voice when you shouldn't (I least I think I do), is there a danger in using a higher voice than you should? Quite honestly, I don't really know what my natural voice is because I've been singing with different ranges my whole life depending on what someone asks for. I usually say I'm a soprano because that was what I usually end up doing. Quite honestly, I always thought if you were trained right you could use any range safely. Thanks for the heads up about it.

[Voronwen]

Originally Posted by Pip

Although, I don't think he's doing it because we need a lower voice, because we don't really, he just likes the depth my voice has at a lower range and he likes what it adds. Another director has comented on my voice being lower for solos. My voice breaks at around middle F (is that the right way to say it?) and I actually have a lower talking voice that what I usually use to sing. That being said, I understand what you're saying about using a lower voice when you shouldn't (I least I think I do), is there a danger in using a higher voice than you should? Quite honestly, I don't really know what my natural voice is because I've been singing with different ranges my whole life depending on what someone asks for. I usually say I'm a soprano because that was what I usually end up doing. Quite honestly, I always thought if you were trained right you could use any range safely. Thanks for the heads up about it.

You're welcome Your post has given me a lot to think about. However not having heard you, i hesitate to advise...

Do you mean that you experience a break on the F4, just above middle C..? If so then perhaps you are dealing with a lower voice. Mezzo-sopranos can have all the same notes as sopranos, and many do sing as sopranos when they're very young (when the vocal cords are very flexible), though their break usually occurs around C5 (an octave above middle C). For a point of reference, mine occurs around F#5, right at the top of the staff. If yours is happening at F5, then perhaps you are a soprano.

Again, it's also about where the voice blooms and where it can sit comfortably for a long period of time. Do you get vocally tired if you sing in your lower range for long periods of time? How about your high range? Do you find that belting comes naturally, or are you more comfortable singing in "head voice"? Again, i can't really advise without hearing you, what you need is to find a good teacher who can tell you exactly what voice type you are. There is no other way to know. Then you can say with confidence that something is to low or too high for you (and to answer your question, yes, staying in too high a range for too long is also taxing to the voice), etc. Eventually once you build some technique you'll have a feel for your own voice and its character and these things will become apparent. But this does take training, and time.

For many young women, it's ambiguous at first as to whether they'll develop into a mezzo or a soprano. With some reliable training, it works itself out.

[Tessar]

Keep in mind, if she means the F4, that the F4 can be a transition point for sopranos from chest to head if the registers are not properly connected and she's dragging chest up to make a low voice sound. If you are untrained and you're constantly flipping from singing soprano to singing alto I could easily see how your registers would break into two separate 'voices'.

There was a girl like that in my studio last year. She came in and had a very pleasant, but also very small and somewhat uninteresting, mezzo voice. Then my teacher discovered that she was actually a soprano, and for a while she had two very distinct voices... the middle-voice and the soprano-voice. Then she unified them and ended up being a very beautiful soprano voice that definitely had a lot of life and shimmer.

If you intend to continue with the high and the low voice singing I would really, really highly encourage you to get a teacher who can help you sing with a 'unified' voice... and all I mean by that is (in a nut-shell) having the ability to slide from near the bottom of your range to near the top of your range without your voice cracking, or having a moment where it very obviously 'flips' over into a different sound.

But don't like Voronwen or I scare you . I know some people who have developed that (where they have an obvious 'low' voice and a different 'high' voice) and it's not like it's always a horrible sound or anything... it's inconvenient for them when they're singing something with a wide range, but if you're not planning to do a lot of solo singing it's not a big deal.

I just know singing has become truly enjoyable for me now that I've had lessons and I can control my voice. I do hold that you should only do voice lessons if it's something you're really, truly interested in though... because it requires some dedication and work, and if you are only mildly interested you probably wont get much out of it.


Voronwen, Sorry I'm still going to write that reply... probably tomorrow.

[Voronwen]

Originally Posted by Tessar

Keep in mind, if she means the F4, that the F4 can be a transition point for sopranos from chest to head if the registers are not properly connected and she's dragging chest up to make a low voice sound. If you are untrained and you're constantly flipping from singing soprano to singing alto I could easily see how your registers would break into two separate 'voices'.

This is entirely possible, Tessar. Thanks for bringing this up!

[Pip]

I think it might be what Tessar's talking about, but seeing as I just sing as a hobby more or less and am not familiar with all the terms I could be wrong. Thanks for all the advice in either case.

[Voronwen]

You're very welcome, Pip

Tessar and i tend to enjoy getting very technical here But please remember what he said about this thread in the first post:

Originally Posted by Tessar

This thread is for all of the singers out there! Any style, any talent level!

Although the discussions may be heavily technique centered at times, feel free to jump in with any conversation related to singing whether it's a question, a suggestion on a singer you really like, or even just to let us know you got the big solo at church.

I too am a "hobbyist", if a rather serious one. I was once on the career path (and Tessar IS on the career path! ), but am no longer. I still study, and still occasionally take singing opportunities of a certain level that come along, but am no longer pursuing singing as a full-time profession. Singing is just part of me, part of my life, and always will be.

John Lodge of the Moody Blues once said music is not something we ever retire from. My own voice teacher who has sung in opera houses all over the world once said that singing is something we can never truly walk away from, because it will always find us again. They are both right, as was the first person to ever say that you don't find music, music finds you.

This thread is dedicated to any and all Entmooters who sing, in any capacity.

[Tessar]

Originally Posted by Voronwen

For many young women, it's ambiguous at first as to whether they'll develop into a mezzo or a soprano. With some reliable training, it works itself out.

Detecting mezzos can definitely be a challenge. Until they've had some training, most (not all, of course) mezzos typically either tend towards an alto sound or a soprano sound depending on which one they sing in choir. It's only after training that they open into that warmer middle-voice sound.

Of course if a teacher tries to force a voice into a certain sound then that can really mess up a mezzo.

Originally Posted by Voronwen

Again, i can't really advise without hearing you, what you need is to find a good teacher who can tell you exactly what voice type you are.

I couldn't agree more . Any time I give advice online I try to remember to add on that anything I suggest should be taken with a grain of salt... I'm no expert, and even if I were it's near impossible to really help a voice in just one 'lesson' or without being actually next to the person.

Originally Posted by Pip

It wasn't voice lessons per se, it was an ensemble group, and yea, I wasn't real thrilled with the teacher. It seemed like we took up half the period talking about how awful the music program was at the school and when we worked on a song we didn't really go over what to do to improve the song, we just sang it over and over until everyone was sick of it for that day.

Ugh. First off, you just can't actually teach voice to a group... it has to be one on one. I guess you could coach vowels and stuff, but that is NOT a voice lesson. Secondly it sounds like not much actual teaching went on anyways...

Please don't let that experience turn you off. That is NOT comparable to a voice lesson... it sound like it was just a waste of time. Blech!

Originally Posted by pip

Although, I don't think he's doing it because we need a lower voice, because we don't really, he just likes the depth my voice has at a lower range and he likes what it adds. Another director has comented on my voice being lower for solos.

With all due respect to your directors, unless they are actually singers/voice teachers I would be very cautious. Heck, even if they are I would be very cautious.

I am a baritone, but all of my choir directors (even one who was a great singer himself) tried to turn me into a bass because I have a decent low extension and I sounded fuller in my low range... but that's not my 'comfort zone'. Singing full on Bass all day will wear out my voice.

Most people speak lower in their range than they should, so it's very possible that you're just speaking unnaturally low. I'd suggest doing a little research on the internet to see what your actual speaking range is... there are exercises, like saying 'mmmhm' and seeing how high your voice naturally goes on the 'hm'. Or there's one where you say 'hellooooooooooooo' and press rapidly and repeatedly on your stomach to see if the voice rises or falls.

Originally Posted by Voronwen

I love this phrase! "With ease". That's a great one to keep in mind! It feels so bouyant and fluffy just thinking about it!

I love it too! I think it's a good phrase because unlike saying something like, "just relax" I don't think it causes the person to stop expending the 'good' effort. With ease doesn't mean without any effort, it just means... well... without undue effort . Maybe that's just us though . Different things for different people.

I cannot condone your decision if you rejoin the choir. I can completely relate to your reasons for quitting before - I had quit community choirs for the exact same reasons. But the main reason i cannot condone choir singing, *especially while you are building your technique*, is because it can actually undo many of the good vocal habits you are trying to work into your voice! My personal experience was that my technique suffered while i was singing in choirs, and improved once i quit. I did leave on good terms and one of the choirs (the one at my church) occasionally asks me to come back and sing a solo, and i do when given the chance, but being a regular choir member anymore is not something i can do without sacrificing some of the security of my technique. It's sad, but unfortunately true.

Yes, I'm starting to think better of the idea. My main reason was that I enjoy the music, and I wanted to keep in touch with the director because he's a great guy, but the more I think about it the less appealing the idea is.

Particularly given what great progress I'm making right now, I don't want to do anything that might hamper that.

It is good to experiment with volumes, but be careful that you don't end up inadvertently creating tension for yourself. Please run this by your teacher.

Don't worry, I will. I'm very self-aware though, from so many years of singing horribly, so I can usually tell very quickly when something is not right. I think it's singing a bit off the voice, though, which isn't something I want to do.

Why on earth would you want to sing without the natural vibrato? That can be potential unhealthy and tension-causing.

I'm glad you said that the way you did... research has come out recently showing that dropping the vibrato is not unhealthy in and of itself, it's the multitude of ways that people use to make the vibrato stop. You can sing straight tone healthily (according to modern vocal scientists... but just wait five years and that might change ), the problem is that people DO use tension to stop it.

So I agree with what you said.




So, about my most recent voice lesson:

We were working on the vowels, and we discovered that (for now) I just need to focus on singing a pure vowel over everything else. My voice is free enough and well placed enough now that when I think of the vowels everything else falls into place.

Frankly my speaking problems are worse than I ever could have imagined . It's not just my lips, it's that my whole mouth is very 'small' when I speak, which was causing the lip tension. I recorded myself speaking, and then I tried thinking of the vowels as I spoke and WOW, the difference was huge. I do naturally speak like I have some kind of speech impediment . I wonder why no one ever told me that before.

I think it comes from speaking so fast when I was little. I somehow got into this mindset that no one was interested in listening to me, so I had to say whatever I wanted to say REALLY FAST. Now that I realize I'm the most interesting person in the world () I can afford to speak a little slower.

About the resonance: I'm starting to think that it's not so much that my resonance has moved 'up', but that it's simply fuller. Before it was a very definite pinprick of vibration like I said, and that's still there but it seems muted because there's now an extra buzzing going on above it... so maybe it's not moving so much as it's simple expanding.

My voice teacher said that I have an unusual amount of resonance for someone my age, the problem is figuring out how to let it out. With the correct vowels, it really pops out, but when I let things be mushy that resonance turns against me O_o. It goes from sounding pingy to giving me a kind of odd 'rumbling' noise that just sounds like bad technique... it's actually my resonance existing but without proper space to actually go somewhere.

Another thing we're trying to focus on is my support. It's something else he says is unusually well developed for someone my age, but I tend to want to chop the phrases down into groupings or even just words. Apparently it's something like having an awesome leaf-blower but only using it in one second bursts . As soon as I make sure to keep it constant (which I'm getting much better at) my phrasing instantly becomes much better.

[Voronwen]

Originally Posted by Tessar

Of course if a teacher tries to force a voice into a certain sound then that can really mess up a mezzo.

Ack!! That can mess up ANYONE!

Ugh. First off, you just can't actually teach voice to a group... it has to be one on one. I guess you could coach vowels and stuff, but that is NOT a voice lesson. Secondly it sounds like not much actual teaching went on anyways...

I agree with this. It sounds as if this director just drilled them for notes and didn't do anything else. Typical!

Please don't let that experience turn you off. That is NOT comparable to a voice lesson... it sound like it was just a waste of time. Blech!

I agree here, too.

With all due respect to your directors, unless they are actually singers/voice teachers I would be very cautious. Heck, even if they are I would be very cautious.

Seconding that.

I am a baritone, but all of my choir directors (even one who was a great singer himself) tried to turn me into a bass because I have a decent low extension and I sounded fuller in my low range... but that's not my 'comfort zone'. Singing full on Bass all day will wear out my voice.

My own bad experience with this was with the one (college choir director) hack who had placed me in "second soprano". The other girls in the section drowned me out (naturally, they had larger, lower-sitting voices) and i couldn't even hear myself without oversinging. What i *should* have done was gone to my private voice teacher and had her yell at him for me - but i was very young and inexperienced then. It was a matter of his having a "shortage" of second-sopranos and too many first sopranos, so he moved the "stronger" first sopranos down to second. He didn't care what we said about being hoarse by the end of practice, or anything. He thought we were simply whining. He was a jerk.

Most people speak lower in their range than they should

Guilty! It's something i am aware of, though, so at least when i do it now, it's a choice... Doesn't make it right, though...

I love it too! I think it's a good phrase because unlike saying something like, "just relax" I don't think it causes the person to stop expending the 'good' effort. With ease doesn't mean without any effort, it just means... well... without undue effort Maybe that's just us though . Different things for different people.

No, i totally get it! That concept of "good" effort (vs. "bad" effort) is important.

Yes, I'm starting to think better of the idea. My main reason was that I enjoy the music, and I wanted to keep in touch with the director because he's a great guy, but the more I think about it the less appealing the idea is.

I completely understand reasons like this.

Particularly given what great progress I'm making right now, I don't want to do anything that might hamper that.

SMART singer!

Don't worry, I will. I'm very self-aware though, from so many years of singing horribly, so I can usually tell very quickly when something is not right. I think it's singing a bit off the voice, though, which isn't something I want to do.

It sounds like you are very self-aware, yes. That's a good thing to develop. And i agree, you don't want to sing off the voice. Choirs almost demand it of the trained soloist, though.

research has come out recently showing that dropping the vibrato is not unhealthy in and of itself, it's the multitude of ways that people use to make the vibrato stop. You can sing straight tone healthily (according to modern vocal scientists... but just wait five years and that might change ), the problem is that people DO use tension to stop it.

Yes, they do. I was taught a 'healthy' straight tone but was still told to only use it occasionally as an effect. That might've been specific directions for my own individual voice, though.

My voice is free enough and well placed enough now that when I think of the vowels everything else falls into place.

GOOD!

I do naturally speak like I have some kind of speech impediment I wonder why no one ever told me that before.

If no one ever mentioned it before, it's probably not as bad as you think.

I think it comes from speaking so fast when I was little.

Interesting. I used to speak fast, too, but that was because i spent the first 30 years of my life in New England Upon moving to the Midwest, everyone told me to slow down at first! But that is neither here nor there (** she says proudly pronouncing all of her final "R"'s ** ).

About the resonance: I'm starting to think that it's not so much that my resonance has moved 'up', but that it's simply fuller. Before it was a very definite pinprick of vibration like I said, and that's still there but it seems muted because there's now an extra buzzing going on above it... so maybe it's not moving so much as it's simple expanding.

It sounds like you really are making great progress! And rapidly, too!

Apparently it's something like having an awesome leaf-blower but only using it in one second bursts

LOL! Oh, i love it.

[Tessar]

I had a great lesson with my dad tonight. He's actually making progress much faster than I expected, which I think I can thank my teacher's techniques for, and of course my dad's desire to be a good singer and willingness to put up with the crazy things I ask him to do .

He's starting to get the idea of putting the vowel where he would speak it, if he were trying to speak resonantly. It's really amazing progress considering that he's 47, and considering how tense he tends to be about everything in life... It's very difficult for him to relax at anything.

We're working the recit. of Il Mio Bel Foco and it's coming along. He's taken almost all of the shakiness out of his voice (which I think was just a support issue) and his voice is slowly moving up and forward. He wants to turn all of his vowels into 'uh' and make them from the throat, but he's getting closer and closer to the pure vowels and getting the sound more resonant and better placed.

I'm having a hard time getting him to raise his soft palate though. He can't seem to do it intentionally unless I have him yawn, but sometimes when he sings it goes to the right place. I'm sure with time and further technique building it will start doing what it should.


What really, really seems to be super effective in his case is speaking the vowel/phrase, and then speak-singing it, getting closer and closer to just singing it.

Something else I adapted to work for him is going 'wooooooooooooooooo' in his falsetto, but pulsing the 'oo' like a ghost or a slow, wide vibrato. It forces him to support the sound and keep his throat open (if he stops supporting or grips he's suddenly unable to pulse the sound), and I'm hoping that it will eventually help free up his voice enough that he can flip it over into a real vibrato.

Another effective trick is just a 'call and response' thing where I go 'ah!' on a pitch and he mimics me. It's helping get his resonators open, it helps place the sound while maintaining a good body connection, and it's showing him how to attack a note properly.

I'm keeping him in a very small range right now. Except maybe on the 'ah!' attacks we're not going below a G2 or above a B3... I think we've probably gone to at least the Middle C or the D on the 'ah', but it's hard to tell since I don't use the piano for that. So really we're working just a bit more than an octave. Once that's solid and his technique is working I'm sure he'll easily start extending to the E4 at least. But we're taking things veeeeery slowly.


Another cool trick is singing the 'ee' vowel (which he finally did correctly for the very first time tonight! ) and then sloooooowly morphing it into another vowel, making sure to keep the forward resonance placed exactly the same the entire time. It worked really well the first few times till he started thinking about it too much and it got throaty. But it was definitely a help!

I'm so excited, and just praying hard that he'll continue to make progress and I'll be able to keep understanding how to keep moving him forward. I know he wants very much to be a good singer, so... If I could do that for him, it would be wonderful.

Teaching an adult is always so different from teaching a kid! With a kid you usually don't have to do much to get them using good technique, but you have to do it without actually explaining any of what you're doing!! They don't usually understand things like 'make a bright sound'. Where as with an adult it seems to take a little longer to get the technique going, but you can explain things to them very easily.