Emblem of Minas Morgul

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Coffeehouse

Doctor indeed Symptoms: In the hunt for the ring the Nazgûl display a series of actions that would suggest some seriously reduced cognitive functions. In the course of their hunt there are symptoms of: a lack of commitment in crucial situations, terrible decision-making, poor tactical execution and reduced cognitive abilities in sunlight.

Lack of commitment to their task I would accept - but it is hardly a sign of dementia. Or so I hope, writing this banter instead of doing my work.

Terrible decision-making - well, not really. They followed orders and went to consult the WK whenever they met a problem. Most likely they learned by bitter experience not to take too much responsibilty upon themselves, but leave it to the Captain. Don't forget, at the end the Captain successfuly talked the enraged Sauron out of punishing them.

Reduced cognitive abilities in sunlight is a drawback of living in the Spirit World. It was balanced by their increased cognitive abilities at night and extra-senses they had.

The Nazgûl also seem to have long-term strains such apathy to emotional and physical well-being and a lack of interest all-together in physical things (excepting the Ring)

Definitely no. Their physical well-being was paramount on their minds, far more important to them than any Rings. Emotions they also displayed (the slashed bolsters are witnesses) and sense of humor: remember how they laughed at Frodo at the Ford.

I wouldn't count on much artistic creativity in their sad state. The poor Nazgûl may have simply thought they were making nice reproductions of the Tower of the Moon banners. Instead when they were sitting huddled in a dimly lit room in their confused state of mind and drawing on each otheir banner (which the Witch-King had bartered for in a tax-free shop down in Harad) the delusional and malicious influences of the Dark Lord Sauron coerced their minds and instead they sub-conciously drew mangled faces on their pretty moons

That is simply ridiculous...

[Coffeehouse]

Originally Posted by Gordis

Lack of commitment to their task I would accept - but it is hardly a sign of dementia. Or so I hope, writing this banter instead of doing my work.

Terrible decision-making - well, not really. They followed orders and went to consult the WK whenever they met a problem. Most likely they learned by bitter experience not to take too much responsibilty upon themselves, but leave it to the Captain. Don't forget, at the end the Captain successfuly talked the enraged Sauron out of punishing them.

Reduced cognitive abilities in sunlight is a drawback of living in the Spirit World. It was balanced by their increased cognitive abilities at night and extra-senses they had.

Definitely no. Their physical well-being was paramount on their minds, far more important to them than any Rings. Emotions they also displayed (the slashed bolsters are witnesses) and sense of humor: remember how they laughed at Frodo at the Ford.

That is simply ridiculous...

Just as Attalus points out in the 'Eye of Sauron' thread the Nazgûl blundered around just a bit too much. I agree with him, the Hunt for the RIng only reinforces that perception and neatly agrees with the symptoms I raised in my last post. The cognitive abilities of the Nazgûl in the sunlight, a regression of the optimal, or if you will, a progressive reduction, are there as you just agreed. Particularly the poor tactical executions gives pause, sunlight or not.

Now, the artistic flair of the Nazgûl, although it may sound ridiculous in the silly words I used, it isn't ridiculous per se. I don't think they had much of it.

The notion that the Nazgûl weren't thinking straight and had some heavy Sauron-induced inhibitions on their artistic abilities is right up the alley with everything else evil stirring in Mordor. There's as much involuntary mangling in the malice of Minas Morgul and Barad-dûr as there as voluntary. Sauron himself reached a stage in the latter parts of his 'life' where even he could not alter the evil of himself, and thus could not appear fair. Instead he had to settle for second best, shrowding his black tower in a permanent shadow.

But I'm off! Wish u all a good night=)

[GrayMouser]

Originally Posted by The Dread Pirate Roberts

Seems to me it's a name given to it by Gondor and/or the Elves. The fact that they still used the moon as their symbol indicates that WiKi and his gang may well have continued to call it the Tower of the Moon.

Maybe, but the orc Snaga specifically says "I fought for the Tower against the Morgul-rats", so the name was at least in use among the orcs.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Coffeehouse

Just as Attalus points out in the 'Eye of Sauron' thread the Nazgûl blundered around just a bit too much. I agree with him, the Hunt for the RIng only reinforces that perception and neatly agrees with the symptoms I raised in my last post. The cognitive abilities of the Nazgûl in the sunlight, a regression of the optimal, or if you will, a progressive reduction, are there as you just agreed. Particularly the poor tactical executions gives pause, sunlight or not.

What would you expect if all this was done for story-external reasons?
Writing the "sequel to the Hobbit" Tolkien wanted the heroes to be in grave peril all the time but to get through alive and well. At the time, the author
was not prepared to kill anyone: not even a secondary character. When logically he was being compelled to do in one of the hobbits (Odo, a precursor of Fatty who was supposed to be captured at Crickhollow), he just dropped the whole plotline. Thus inevitably the nazgul come out as very ineffectual and very kind - not chopping off a single head in the whole FOTR.

And take the delay between the escape by the Ferry and the attack on Crickhollow - 4-5 days, when realistically the nazgul could have been there the next night. The only reasn is that for literary puropses Tolkien wanted the attack on Crickhollow to occur the same night as the attack on the inn at Bree. As a result, poor Khamul's reputation suffered: the excuses and explanations given in the Hunt for such a delay sound lame.

Now, the artistic flair of the Nazgûl, although it may sound ridiculous in the silly words I used, it isn't ridiculous per se. I don't think they had much of it.

Sorry for using the word "ridiculous". In fact this discussion is simply inapplicable to the banner. It stands to reason that the nazgul wanted it to be menacing, frightening.
Another matter if you wish to discuss the scenery in the Morgul vale: all these meadows of white flowers and evil-looking statues etc.: was it to frighten the unwanted intruders or was it the nazgul vision of beauty? Here there could be a fine discussion, I believe.

The notion that the Nazgûl weren't thinking straight and had some heavy Sauron-induced inhibitions on their artistic abilities is right up the alley with everything else evil stirring in Mordor. There's as much involuntary mangling in the malice of Minas Morgul and Barad-dûr as there as voluntary. Sauron himself reached a stage in the latter parts of his 'life' where even he could not alter the evil of himself, and thus could not appear fair. Instead he had to settle for second best, shrowding his black tower in a permanent shadow.

Yes, exactly along those lines...

Originally Posted by GrayMouser

Maybe, but the orc Snaga specifically says "I fought for the Tower against the Morgul-rats", so the name was at least in use among the orcs.

At first, in the drafts, Tolkien had an "orkish" name for M.Morgul - "Dushgoi", as "Lugburz" stood for Barad Dur. But Dushgoi was later abandoned.

[Attalus]

Originally Posted by Gordis

What would you expect if all this was done for story-external reasons?
Writing the "sequel to the Hobbit" Tolkien wanted the heroes to be in grave peril all the time but to get through alive and well. At the time, the author
was not prepared to kill anyone: not even a secondary character. When logically he was being compelled to do in one of the hobbits (Odo, a precursor of Fatty who was supposed to be captured at Crickhollow), he just dropped the whole plotline. Thus inevitably the nazgul come out as very ineffectual and very kind - not chopping off a single head in the whole FOTR.

This is venturing upon mind-reading. As I have repeatedly posted, it is just as convincing to believe that the Nazgul are intended to be overrated: 1) unable to find the Ring, which, supposedly "draws them," under their very noses, assuming they still possess those useful appendages; 2) five fought off by Aragorn with some dubious Hobbit-help, with just a torch. There has been much speculation on other Forums about whether Aragorn was otherwise armed than with broken Narsil. I cannot believe he would venture forth into the Wild without something else, but there is nothing in the Canon to support this supposition. 3) Fought off by Gandalf, all alone; 4) Missed the Ring when it went right by Minas Morgul 5) it is repeatedly stressed that their greatest weapon is fear, an uncertain weapon at best. I could go on, and I suspect will.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Attalus

This is venturing upon mind-reading.

Not at all. It is clearly visible from the drafts of the Fellowship (Home 6-7).

There were much altered timelines for the hobbits' and Gandalf's movements, but the Black riders appeared when it was necessary for the narrative, not when it was logical for them to appear:

he also noted here that the attack on Crickhollow should be told on the night of The Prancing Pony (whence the 'doubled' opening of FR Chapter 11, 'A Knife in the Dark').- HOME 7 "Gandalf's delay"
As the story stood in that text, Gandalf came to Crickhollow and routed the Riders on the night of Monday 26 September, the first night spent by the hobbits in the house of Tom Bombadil, and the account of the attack on Crickhollow was introduced as a short separate narrative in the body of Chapter VII (see VI.303 - 4, 328). But this had now been changed, and the attack by the Riders delayed by three days, with the postponement of Gandalf's coming to Bree.-ibid

That's how it was being constructed. The result was detrimental for Khamul's character who now appeared waiting for several days before attacking Crickhollow, but the change was not done for this purpose, it was mere drawback.

The "Hunt for the Ring" appeared later, when the narrative had been completed and published, it only tried to explain what the nazgul were doing during the allotted time intervals - and unfortunately these explanations were sometimes quite lame.

Why was the plot with a captured hobbit abandoned? It is not a speculation, here is the quote:

In the margin of the 'fourth phase' version of the attack on Crickhollow (p. 55) my father later noted: "Omit, or bring into line with old version (in middle of Chapter VII). Ham cannot be captured (Black Riders would obviously kill him." -HOME 7 "Of Hamilcar, Gandalf and Saruman"

Tolkien didn't want a hobbit killed. I suppose he didn't yet anticipate rivers of blood that would flow in the TT and ROTK.

Originally Posted by Attalus

As I have repeatedly posted, it is just as convincing to believe that the Nazgul are intended to be overrated:

Not if you are familiar with how it was actually being written (Home 6-8). I know, Tolkien was a genius, but it is very hard to write in such a confusing, messy way, "letting the story to write itself". It leads to numerous plot-holes, and the enemies start to appear ... hmm.. enigmatic, if not outright stupid. Tolkien simply rarely thought and plotted from their point of view - and it shows.

Originally Posted by Attalus

2) five fought off by Aragorn with some dubious Hobbit-help, with just a torch.

This, I would say, is the only episode convincingly explained by the Hunt for the Ring in RC. Aragorn was not a main factor - Frodo's Barrow-blade was.

Originally Posted by Attalus

There has been much speculation on other Forums about whether Aragorn was otherwise armed than with broken Narsil.

Needless discussion: Aragorn had no other blade, as told by Tolkien himself in the letter #210 about the Weathertop scene:

Strider does not 'Whip out a sword' in the book. Naturally not: his sword was broken. (Its elvish light is another false anticipation of the reforged Anduril. Anticipation is one of Z's chief faults.) Why then make him do so here, in a contest that was explicitly not fought with weapons?

3) Fought off by Gandalf, all alone;

But the Maia had barely saved his hide, didn't he?

4) Missed the Ring when it went right by Minas Morgul

The WK had sensed the Ring all right, though it was far further from the Bridge to the hobbits than from one room of the Pony to another, and the WK was unprepared.

5) it is repeatedly stressed that their greatest weapon is fear, an uncertain weapon at best.

It is so:

Their peril is almost entirely due to the unreasoning fear which they inspire (like ghosts). They have no great physical power against the fearless; but what they have, and the fear that they inspire, is enormously increased in darkness. The Witch-king, their leader, is more powerful in all ways than the others; but he must not yet be raised to the stature of Vol. III. There, put in command by Sauron, he is given an added demonic force. But even in the Battle of the Pelennor, the darkness had only just broken.L#210

[Attalus]

Originally Posted by Gordis

Not if you are familiar with how it was actually being written (Home 6-8). I know, Tolkien was a genius, but it is very hard to write in such a confusing, messy way, "letting the story to write itself". It leads to numerous plot-holes, and the enemies start to appear ... hmm.. enigmatic, if not outright stupid. Tolkien simply rarely thought and plotted from their point of view - and it shows.

I am quite familiar with how it was written. I am also familiar with how JRRT changed (many) things from draft to draft. I take the {noncanonical) "The Hunt for the Ring" to be JRRT's final concept of them. This may or may not be justified, but it neatly jibes with the Canonical instances I have alluded to

This, I would say, is the only episode convincingly explained by the Hunt for the Ring in RC. Aragorn was not a main factor - Frodo's Barrow-blade was.

As Gandalf put it, Frodo was saved from an incurable Morgul-knife wound in his heart because he "resisted to the last." I'm sorry, but this doesn't sound like something that would affect five strong, fierce beings. Wound somebody that they almost (but not certainly) knew was carrying their dread master's fondest desire and then withdraw and wait to see what would happen? Even a troop of Orcs would have served better.

Needless discussion: Aragorn had no other blade, as told by Tolkien himself in the letter #210 about the Weathertop scene:

Hence my reference to the unCanonical references on other Forums. As I clearly posted, there is no cCanonical mention of other weapons.

But the Maia had barely saved his hide, didn't he?

"Barely," like "close" just counts in horseshoes and hand grenades.

The WK had sensed the Ring all right, though it was far further from the Bridge to the hobbits than from one room of the Pony to another, and the WK was unprepared.

This is another instance that occurred to me that I was too hurried to mentio. These super-undead-"bad guys" refusing to attack an unfortified inn with just one armed man present, just because they were "afraid that Gandalf might be there?" Oh, please. Again, a troop of Orcs would have served better.
This is why I regard the Nazgul as overrated by the Wise. As you so cogently quote, "unreasoning fear" was their primary weapon.
I recently reread John Keegan's The Face of Battle, and saw how he ascribed the defeat of the much larger French army at Agincourt, as well as the repulse of D'Erlon's initial infantry attack and the French Guard's attack on Wellingon's center at Waterloo as due not so much to the fighting "head" of the columns, who seem to acquitted themselves quite well in all cases but the spread of panic towards the rear of each of these columns. This seems to have been a factor at Helm's Deep, the Pellenor, and the final assault of the Black Gate. Tolkein, as a soldier, would have been familiar with this phenomenon, which seems to have affected the Germans at the Battle of the Somme. Fear (on the enemy's part) is a great asset in any fight, but it can never be counted on, as the Witch-King and Sauron both found to their cost.

[Coffeehouse]

Originally Posted by Gordis

At the time, the author
was not prepared to kill anyone: not even a secondary character.

It's true that there were no deaths between Hobbiton and Rivendell. Like you touched upon, story-wise, it is uncommon to start with a death or deaths of primary or secondary characters. And to JRR Tolkien it would be poor form indeed
So that's a point, the Nazgûl were from the very start disadvantaged, story-wise, by the fact that JRR Tolkien wouldn't permit any of them to hack down a defenceless hobbit or two out in the wild or in the confines of a hobbit-hole.
But what JRR Tolkien shows with the pursuit between Hobbiton and Bree is that the Nazgûl simply lacked the foresight and skill in tracking down the hobbits and cornering them.

When you read the Fellowship of the Ring, although the Nazgûl's fear-factor is quite palpable from the hobbit point-of-view, you come to realise that they are not at all 'in-sync' with their surroundings nor their task. Before they finally step out into the open, at night of course, at Weathertop, they seem more like severely inhibited soldiers-of-despair sent out on a task that is too steep a hill to climb. They're simply not up for it.

So why were the Nazgûl ill-suited for their task?
It seems the Nazgûl could not execute proper tactics that were adapted to the terrain that the hunt took place in, Eriador. It's a vast area of small towns and farms, woodlands and a great many places to hide.
The Nazgûl, despite the fact that they are ancient Kings of Middle-Earth, and despite the fact, as Olmer raises in his 'Where's the beef'-theory, the Witch-King had his kingdom of Angmar just up the road, are inhibited by their own state of being. They don't feel familiar with Hobbiton, the Shire, Bree or any woodland in-between because if they ever knew anything about these places, I think they've mostly forgotten it. The Witch-King is quoted, from the Hunt for the Ring, in having a greater clarity of mind after the crossing and the attack on the rangers, but that only goes to show how severely hampered their minds already were; The cognitive functions, that work well for any other normal being living beneath the sun-light of Eriador, simply aren't in a very good shape in the dark-natured, half-withered beings that the Nazgul are. In darkness, yes, they feel strengthened and are keen hunters, and that is natural. They have been the slaves of Sauron for centuries, in a land of darkness, and really the only thing one could really expect from them is that they know of nothing else. Perhaps that is also a point where Olmer's theory falls short: the notion that the Nazgûl were tired of their state of existence. I think they despaired, but as a heroin drug addict of many years would, the Nazgûl simply don't see an alternative. The darkness was as much a pain-killer as it was a pain and thus the Nazgûl were despite its sides of despair, uncontrollably compelled in serving absolutely the provider of the pain-killers, Sauron.

The impression one is left with in the Fellowship of the Ring is that the Nazgûl were sent on a task that they really did not have the know-how to execute or the adaptability to engage in. Barred their obvious talents as nocturnal hunters, they were met with obstacles such as at least 12-hours a day of sunlight, unchartered terrain, the presence of rangers, the presence of Elves, the presence of Gandalf, the lack of local aid and last but not least, a fundamental misunderstanding of what hobbits were.
If you couple that with poor cognitive functions, particularly during daylight, an overdependence on their fear-factor and a fear of water it's clear that it was Sauron who underequipped and undermanned his Ring-finding-expedition. And that is why an expedition founded on fear and not proper expertise did not work

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Attalus

I am quite familiar with how it was written. I am also familiar with how JRRT changed (many) things from draft to draft. I take the {noncanonical) "The Hunt for the Ring" to be JRRT's final concept of them. This may or may not be justified, but it neatly jibes with the Canonical instances I have alluded to

The Hunt for the Ring is not an attempt to rewrite the original story, it is a gap-filler, an attempt to justify the delays and inconsistencies of the canonic story as best Tolkien could. He was not always successful. Olmer, by the way, attempted to do the same and I liked it. But anyway, Tolkien's own explanation must needs take precedence...

Originally Posted by Attalus

As Gandalf put it, Frodo was saved from an incurable Morgul-knife wound in his heart because he "resisted to the last." I'm sorry, but this doesn't sound like something that would affect five strong, fierce beings. Wound somebody that they almost (but not certainly) knew was carrying their dread master's fondest desire and then withdraw and wait to see what would happen? Even a troop of Orcs would have served better.

What wouldn't affect them? Sorry, I don't get it.
I was saying that they withdrew mostly because Frodo wielded the Barrow blade - the deadliest weapon for the nazgul. To wound Frodo was not a small feat in itself, while he was holding THAT blade: only the WK dared approach the poisonous little snake, the two other nazgul had stopped. Add to that that Frodo was wearing the One Ring "an object of terror in their religious cult, by which they had been conditioned to treat one who wielded it with servility" -L#246. It was a sacrilege to attack the wielder of the One Ring. In the process, the WK almost got killed himself. No wonder he was upset and frightened and took some time to recover.

Then, even if the nazgul didn't follow the company with the Ring on their cross-country track (and how could they follow them with the horses?), they put ambushes at the main strategic spots: bridge of Mitheithel (Last Bridge) and at the Ford of Bruinen. In both cases they were right: the company did come there. If the nazgul were hindered, it was by a new factor: Glorfindel.

And YES, a troop of Orcs would have served better in this case. A troop of Men (Black Numenoreans disguised as rangers) would have been ideal. But it was Sauron's choice to send the nazgul. All this is explained in the "Hunt" (UT): the nazgul were highly unsuitable for such a mission and only chosen because they were the only ones who could be trusted to bring Sauron his Precious and not pocket it along the way. Note: Sauron didn't send them because he hoped to get advantage by the fear they cause. Instead he recognized their fear as a disadvantage for that particular mission. But Sauron was paranoid, so no Orcs, no Men, only Nazgul.

Originally Posted by Coffeehouse

it is uncommon to start with a death or deaths of primary or secondary characters.

All detective stories start this way - I rather enjoy it. I wouldn't mind to find someone violently murdered at Crickhollow or in the Prancing pony. But well... it was supposed to be a sequel to the Hobbit, a book for children.

Originally Posted by Coffeehouse

But what JRR Tolkien shows with the pursuit between Hobbiton and Bree is that the Nazgûl simply lacked the foresight and skill in tracking down the hobbits and cornering them.

That is the impression we inevitably get (here I agree) - I only try to point out that it was not intentional on the author's part. After all, Tolkien couldn't let Khamul to pay a visit to Bag End while the hobbits were packing, or to reach the Ferry ten minutes earlier. The story would have been too short and grim.

Originally Posted by Coffeehouse

When you read the Fellowship of the Ring, although the Nazgûl's fear-factor is quite palpable from the hobbit point-of-view, you come to realize that they are not at all 'in-sync' with their surroundings nor their task. Before they finally step out into the open, at night of course, at Weathertop, they seem more like severely inhibited soldiers-of-despair sent out on a task that is too steep a hill to climb. They're simply not up for it.

You have to consider that the nazgul were not supposed to be hunting hobbits or rabbits or gollums all alone in a far-away enemy country. That must have been quite a new (and quite unpleasant) experience for them. Normally they led armies, ruled countries, acted as ambassadors.

Originally Posted by Coffeehouse

They don't feel familiar with Hobbiton, the Shire, Bree or any woodland in-between because if they ever knew anything about these places, I think they've mostly forgotten it.

More likely, the places have changed a lot over the last millennium. Tolkien didn't say they had forgotten anything:

The Witch-king had now a clearer understanding of the matter. He had known something of the country long ago, in his wars with the Dúnedain, and especially of the Tyrn Gothad of Cardolan, now the Barrow-downs, whose evil wights had been sent there by himself. Seeing that his Master suspected some move between the Shire and Rivendell, he saw also that Bree (the position of which he knew) would be an important point, at least for information. He put therefore the Shadow of Fear on the Dunlending, and sent turn on to Bree as an agent. -UT, p. 348

Originally Posted by Coffeehouse

The Witch-King is quoted, from the Hunt for the Ring, in having a greater clarity of mind after the crossing and the attack on the rangers, but that only goes to show how severely hampered their minds already were;

What greater clarity of mind after the attack? Quote please!

Originally Posted by Coffeehouse

The cognitive functions, that work well for any other normal being living beneath the sun-light of Eriador, simply aren't in a very good shape in the dark-natured, half-withered beings that the Nazgul are. In darkness, yes, they feel strengthened and are keen hunters, and that is natural. They have been the slaves of Sauron for centuries, in a land of darkness, and really the only thing one could really expect from them is that they know of nothing else. Perhaps that is also a point where Olmer's theory falls short: the notion that the Nazgûl were tired of their state of existence. I think they despaired, but as a heroin drug addict of many years would, the Nazgûl simply don't see an alternative. The darkness was as much a pain-killer as it was a pain and thus the Nazgûl were despite its sides of despair, uncontrollably compelled in serving absolutely the provider of the pain-killers, Sauron.

All this is OK as long as you do not mix altered senses, difficulties to perceive the World of Light with the absence of clarity of mind or even with dementia.

[Coffeehouse]

Originally Posted by Gordis

Then, even if the nazgul didn't follow the company with the Ring on their cross-country track (and how could they follow them with the horses?)

Perhaps riding with horses across the terrain the hobbits and Strider embarked on would be difficult (ex., swamps), but that shouldn't be an excuse. Here again the Nazgûl didn't show any adaptability.

The Nazgûl easily could have disembarked from their steeds, leaving one or two in charge of the horses further along the path, f.ex. at a strategic point such at the bridge of Mitheithel or the Ford of Bruinen, while the rest pursued the hobbits and Strider where they would least expect it, off-road.

Originally Posted by Gordis

But Sauron was paranoid, so no Orcs, no Men, only Nazgul.

I completely agree. Sauron made an executive decision, and he chose to rely on the one factor that in the past had failed him before: the fear-factor. Perhaps Sauron also did overestimate his Nazgûl, forgetting the violent strains their enslaved mind were enduring, and hooked on his darkness.

Originally Posted by Gordis

All detective stories start this way

Right, but then again Tolkien didn't write a who-did-it-story in the Lord of the Rings

Originally Posted by Gordis

You have to consider that the nazgul were not supposed to be hunting hobbits or rabbits or gollums all alone in a far-away enemy country. That must have been quite a new (and quite unpleasant) experience for them. Normally they led armies, ruled countries, acted as ambassadors.

That thought has occurred to me In fact that's one of the reasons I'm listing their unsuitability for this mission: They were found wanting on a task that proved too difficult for theim.

Originally Posted by Gordis

More likely, the places have changed a lot over the last millennium. Tolkien didn't say they had forgotten anything

What is to be expected though? The Nazgûl have suffered physical and psychological torture for decades upon decades. They have lived in a constant darkness in a land that tries to suffocate both body and mind. I think that influences the mind, what you know, what you remember. But I admit I'm speculating

Originally Posted by Gordis

What greater clarity of mind after the attack? Quote please!

You provided the exact quote I was looking for yourself, "The Witch-king had now a clearer understanding of the matter."

[The Dread Pirate Roberts]

I'm not sure Sauron overestimated his Nazgul (though he probably did somewhat) as much as he underestimated his enemies. It had been long since anyone among men outside of Gondor had proved fearless against Nazgul. How could Sauron know at the time that a pure strain of Numenor remained in the north and that the rightful heir to the kingdoms not only lived but had the courage to face down not just one Nazgul but five at once?

Surely he expected the Men they would have to face would be more like Butterbur or even Bill Ferny. If there was no Aragorn, the Nazgul would have succeeded.

So were they unsuited for the mission? Or merely unsuited to face the unexpected fearless enemy, the heir of Elendil?

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Coffeehouse

Perhaps riding with horses across the terrain the hobbits and Strider embarked on would be difficult (ex., swamps), but that shouldn't be an excuse. Here again the Nazgûl didn't show any adaptability.

The Nazgûl easily could have disembarked from their steeds, leaving one or two in charge of the horses further along the path, f.ex. at a strategic point such at the bridge of Mitheithel or the Ford of Bruinen, while the rest pursued the hobbits and Strider where they would least expect it, off-road.

What for? Why trudge across the Marches trying to find the hobbits' tracks when they could instead wait for them to come to Weathertop? The nazgul expected them there and were quite right. Aragorn indeed led his charges right into the trap. It was very good planning on the nazgul's part, good tactic and the correct use of the terrain.

Originally Posted by Coffeehouse

I completely agree. Sauron made an executive decision, and he chose to rely on the one factor that in the past had failed him before: the fear-factor.

But NO! I have to repeat it again and again: Sauron didn't rely on the fear factor: instead he considered fear that the nazgul spread a grave disadvantage. Read the UT:

Yet this weakness [the nazgul] had for Sauron's present purpose: so great was the terror that went with them (even invisible and unclad) that their coming forth might soon be perceived and their mission be guessed by the Wise.

Originally Posted by Coffeehouse

You provided the exact quote I was looking for yourself, "The Witch-king had now a clearer understanding of the matter."

And you interpret it as: "The Witch-King is quoted, from the Hunt for the Ring, in having a greater clarity of mind after the crossing and the attack on the rangers, but that only goes to show how severely hampered their minds already were." Are you joking?

Here is the whole quote :

This Dunlending was overtaken by several of the Black Riders as they approached the Tharbad crossing. In an extremity of terror he was haled to the Witch-king and questioned. He saved his life by betraying Saruman. The Witch-king thus learned that Saruman knew well all along where the Shire was, and knew much about it, which he could and should have told to Sauron's servants if he had been a true ally. The Witch-king also obtained much information, including some about the only name that interested him: Baggins. It was for this reason that Hobbiton was singled out as one of the points for immediate visit and enquiry.
The Witch-king had now a clearer understanding of the matter. He had known something of the country long ago, in his wars with the Dúnedain, and especially of the Tyrn Gothad of Cardolan, now the Barrow-downs, whose evil wights had been sent there by himself. 19 Seeing that his Master suspected some move between the Shire and Rivendell, he saw also that Bree (the position of which he knew) would be an important point, at least for information. 20 He put therefore the Shadow of Fear on the Dunlending, and sent turn on to Bree as an agent. He was the squint-eyed southerner at the Inn.

Where you see any rangers, attacks, or hampered minds?

Originally Posted by DPR

So were they unsuited for the mission? Or merely unsuited to face the unexpected fearless enemy, the heir of Elendil?

The Witch-King had already done in quite a few heirs of Elendil.

[Attalus]

Originally Posted by Gordis

What wouldn't affect them? Sorry, I don't get it.
I was saying that they withdrew mostly because Frodo wielded the Barrow blade - the deadliest weapon for the nazgul. To wound Frodo was not a small feat in itself, while he was holding THAT blade: only the WK dared approach the poisonous little snake, the two other nazgul had stopped. Add to that that Frodo was wearing the One Ring "an object of terror in their religious cult, by which they had been conditioned to treat one who wielded it with servility" -L#246. It was a sacrilege to attack the wielder of the One Ring. In the process, the WK almost got killed himself. No wonder he was upset and frightened and took some time to recover.

Then, even if the nazgul didn't follow the company with the Ring on their cross-country track (and how could they follow them with the horses?), they put ambushes at the main strategic spots: bridge of Mitheithel (Last Bridge) and at the Ford of Bruinen. In both cases they were right: the company did come there. If the nazgul were hindered, it was by a new factor: Glorfindel.

And YES, a troop of Orcs would have served better in this case. A troop of Men (Black Numenoreans disguised as rangers) would have been ideal. But it was Sauron's choice to send the nazgul. All this is explained in the "Hunt" (UT): the nazgul were highly unsuitable for such a mission and only chosen because they were the only ones who could be trusted to bring Sauron his Precious and not pocket it along the way. Note: Sauron didn't send them because he hoped to get advantage by the fear they cause. Instead he recognized their fear as a disadvantage for that particular mission. But Sauron was paranoid, so no Orcs, no Men, only Nazgul.

Why, resisiting to the last wouldn't affect the Nazgul exept by foiling their attempt on Frodo.

Anyway, this is not an attempt to explain Sauron, only to show how relatively powerless the Nazgul were. Look, let's assume that Frodo's Barrow-Blade was the equivalent of Merry's. Heck, let's go all the way and say that it was the greatest Wraith-bane in the history of Middle-earth, that one touch would turn a Nazgul into corpse-powder or whatever. This all begs the question of the Naguls' mission, to secure the Ring of Power. It was not the business of the Nazgul to preserve their own existences, but, like any other military asset, to accomplish their mission, at the risk of thier own non-life. The Orcs knew this: consider the piles of bodies at Parth Galen. The Nagul, ex-generals or the equivalent, all, must have known it, too. We must therefore assume that the only weapons they had were Fear, a spent bolt, already, and the Morgul-knife. If they had any other, Sauron would have required them to use it, even if by doing so they ended their existence but they did nothing but shadow the party and try to scare them, to be swept away by a river in flood and failed. Sauron must of known this, or they would have been punished instead of giving them "newsteeds and swifter." It is notable that we hear no more of them except as messengers and bogies, until the seige of Gondor, when we are expressly told that Sauron infused the Witch-King with greater power.

[Coffeehouse]

Originally Posted by The Dread Pirate Roberts

I'm not sure Sauron overestimated his Nazgul (though he probably did somewhat) as much as he underestimated his enemies. It had been long since anyone among men outside of Gondor had proved fearless against Nazgul. How could Sauron know at the time that a pure strain of Numenor remained in the north and that the rightful heir to the kingdoms not only lived but had the courage to face down not just one Nazgul but five at once?

Surely he expected the Men they would have to face would be more like Butterbur or even Bill Ferny. If there was no Aragorn, the Nazgul would have succeeded.

So were they unsuited for the mission? Or merely unsuited to face the unexpected fearless enemy, the heir of Elendil?

It probably is a combination of both. Sauron might be forgiven such, but a saying come's to mind which he would have done well to heed: "Know thy enemy", and it seems that in the most momentous defeats of dictators they're undoing was underestimating their enemy's capacity to mobilize (Tsarist Russia besieged by Napoleon, Stalin's USSR besieged by Hitler, British-occupied Egypt besieged by the German Afrika Korps, United States Revolutionaries besieged by the British, etc, the list goes on), which for Sauron was the case not only in the hunt for the ring but indeed the rest of the war.

We can also forgive Sauron for implementing a strategy which was not entirely unreasonable: Going in fast, by stealth and snatching the ring before it ever reached Rivendell and before his enemies understand what is going on. But the tactics he chooses for this strategy aren't compatible with the manpower he sends, the Nazgûl. They seem incapable of reigning in the chill darkness they eminate when it's not needed, and thus simply cannot produce the fast stealthy approach that Sauron expects.

**EDIT** Didn't see the newest posts!

Originally Posted by Gordis

But NO! I have to repeat it again and again: Sauron didn't rely on the fear factor: instead he considered fear that the nazgul spread a grave disadvantage.

As I write above, Sauron may choose a fast, stealthy approach, but he is relying on a fear factor whether he intends to or not! If he is unable to understand that the Nazgûl are unable to reign in their fear factor and in place choose a more stealthier approach then has a shockingly poor insight into his own subject's nature.

Originally Posted by Gordis

And you interpret it as: "The Witch-King is quoted, from the Hunt for the Ring, in having a greater clarity of mind after the crossing and the attack on the rangers, but that only goes to show how severely hampered their minds already were." Are you joking?

Not rangers of course, but a Dunlending, my bad, was mixing with another situation.

Concerning their mental health: no I'm not joking. The Witch-King here shows evidence that he had forgotten and had a confused understanding of the terrain ahead and the lay of the people, towns and land. When he is given prime information by the Dunlending his mind is refreshed. This is not a direct evidence that the Nazgûl have severely inhibited minds. But as I wrote in a previous post, it is likely that the Nazgûl being slaves of Sauron, being physically and psychologically scarred, suffer from not only a heroine-aliken addiction to darkness but also several other inhibitions like memory loss. Remember, they aren't human any longer. It was a long time since they were and it seems absurd that it has not affected their minds. It's a speculation, true, but it doesn't make it less likely.

Originally Posted by Attalus

This all begs the question of the Naguls' mission, to secure the Ring of Power. It was not the business of the Nazgul to preserve their own existences, but, like any other military asset, to accomplish their mission, at the risk of thier own non-life.

I agree whole-heartedly with this. It raises a good point about the task of the Nazgûl and what they were meant to accomplish: Retrieving the ring at any cost. If we consider the Hashashin of the times during the Caliphates, whom were highly-trained assassins meant to locate and kill (or even kidnap and retrieve) targets. They were obliged to do their best, they obliged to finish their mission and if neccessary, die trying.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Attalus

It was not the business of the Nazgul to preserve their own existences, but, like any other military asset, to accomplish their mission, at the risk of thier own non-life. The Orcs knew this: consider the piles of bodies at Parth Galen. The Nagul, ex-generals or the equivalent, all, must have known it, too.

Exactly. They valued their lives above any silly Ruling Rings - which shows them to be very rational creatures..

EDIT: and in view of Coffeehouse's latest addition, I have to say that the nazgul didn't resemble Hashashin at all. They were not going to risk their lives - regardless of Sauron's wishes.

Originally Posted by Attalus

Sauron must of known this, or they would have been punished instead of giving them "newsteeds and swifter." It is notable that we hear no more of them except as messengers and bogies, until the seige of Gondor, when we are expressly told that Sauron infused the Witch-King with greater power.

Also a great feat on the WK's part was to mollify the angry Dark Lord, making him believe that the failure was due to the Elven-hobbit conspiracy and was no fault of the Nine.

The wrath and fear of Sauron then may be guessed; yet if there was any in the world in whom he trusted it was the Lord of Angmar; and if his wrath were lessened by perceiving that his great servant had defeated by ill chance (and the craft of the Wise) rather than by faults of his own, his fear would be the more – seeing what power was yet in his Enemies, and how sharply fortune favoured them at each turn when all seemed lost. RC p.262

Why, Gorbag even says: "But He likes 'em; they're His favourites nowadays, so it's no use grumbling."

[CAB]

The Nazgul were sent because they were Sauron's only servants with any remote possibility of successfully completing the task. Sure, maybe a group of Black Numenoreans or even some Orcs may have been better suited to recovering the Ring, but they would have been completely unsuitable for returning the Ring to Sauron. Only the Nazgul would have given the Ring back. Sauron didn't make a poor choice by sending the Nazgul. It was the only choice he had.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by CAB

The Nazgul were sent because they were Sauron's only servants with any remote possibility of successfully completing the task. Sure, maybe a group of Black Numenoreans or even some Orcs may have been better suited to recovering the Ring, but they would have been completely unsuitable for returning the Ring to Sauron. Only the Nazgul would have given the Ring back. Sauron didn't make a poor choice by sending the Nazgul. It was the only choice he had.

I tend to agree, but still I think that a group of trained Men under the nazgul's direct command would have been an asset.

[CAB]

Originally Posted by Gordis

I tend to agree, but still I think that a group of trained Men under the nazgul's direct command would have been an asset.

That is possible, but such a situation could have become a fiasco quite quickly. If a typical (or even well trained) Black Numenorean was drawn to the Ring at a Gollum-like rate (which I think is likely), then the Nazgul may have ended up chasing their own servants around.

Regardless, the Nazgul had to be included in this mission. Some of the problems arising from their unsuitability (for instance, fear-factor vs stealth) simply could not be avoided.

[Coffeehouse]

Originally Posted by Gordis

EDIT: and in view of Coffeehouse's latest addition, I have to say that the nazgul didn't resemble Hashashin at all. They were not going to risk their lives - regardless of Sauron's wishes.

Yet that would seem completely contradictory wouldn't it. The Nazgûl were compelled to take the One Ring due to Sauron holding the Nine Rings. According to what Tolkien's narrative tells us, it would be impossible for the Nazgûl to defy their master's orders.

Seen from a task-completion point of view its obvious then that the Nazgûl were a very poor choice. Just like the Hashashin, they were supposed to complete their task no matter the cost. The One Ring was the be all and end all to Sauron. They are in fact a disgrace to the profession that they were meant to serve in the hunt for the ring if they are unwilling to sacrifice their worthless wraight-lives for Sauron.

And although they seem to be the only one's who would actually return the One Ring once it was retrieved, they were also the only one's who seemed unwilling to sacrifice their lives to obtain the One Ring.

Which leaves one conclusion: Sauron was overstimated by the Wise, he did not have the awesome power they hyped him up to have.

[Alcuin]

Originally Posted by CAB

That is possible, but such a situation could have become a fiasco quite quickly. If a typical (or even well trained) Black Numenorean was drawn to the Ring at a Gollum-like rate (which I think is likely), then the Nazgul may have ended up chasing their own servants around.

Regardless, the Nazgul had to be included in this mission. Some of the problems arising from their unsuitability (for instance, fear-factor vs stealth) simply could not be avoided.

They did have men under their control, at least in Bree. There were Bill Ferney, who apparently had one of these creatures in his house or at least on his property; Harry Goatleaf the gatekeeper; and the squint-eyed, sallow-faced Southerner of ill fame who started out working for Saruman and was “recruited” by the Witch-king. They must also have had men helping them in the southern end of the Vales of Anduin, Sauron’s messengers, who provided them the fresh horses.

The only question might be why no living, normal men accompanied them to “Shire” to find “Baggins”. Could no living men endure their company that long?