Wraiths Before the Ring

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Alcuin

The works of the other Rings might not then end abruptly, but tail off either quickly or slowly after the destruction of the One Ring. If the One was designed both to draw power from others to Sauron and to enslave their wills to Sauron, its destruction seems to have created a “hole� into which the power sustaining the works of the other Rings drained. “I don't know for sure� either, but I think it makes sense.

I like this "hole" conception. Makes a lot of sense.

Actually it again deserves a new thread, but I have always wondered, would the destruction of four of the 19 lead to a "hole" in the One, draining it of some power? Would the destruction of all the 19 leave the Ruling Ring almost powerless?

Here I must disagree, but I do not think you will be disappointed. From Hobbit, “Roast Mutton�, when Bilbo first sets off on his Adventure without his pocket-handkerchief,

He-he, good catch. So the cloak has always been too big for Bilbo. Well, then perhaps our dear old hobbit was not yet too far gone in fading to stop eating...

[CAB]

Originally Posted by Gordis

I think it was like that. Bilbo was 50 when he got the Ring. He remained the same age (physically) until 3001, then started to age again. So by 3018 he was 50+17=67 years old physically. With the Ring destroyed, he became 111+17=128 years old all of a sudden, which is very old for a hobbit.

As for Gollum, let us say he was 17 in TA 2463, when he got the Ring. He was physically still 17 when he lost it in 2941. He started to age almost normally, so by 3018 he was 17+77= 94 - old, but still fit and quite well adapted to the life in the wilderness. However he knew that with the Ring destroyed he would "turn into dust" (becoming suddenly 573 years old and thus dead.)

Just to be an irritating, technical, pain in the neck.

I can't agree with the idea that the rings completely stopped the aging process. That they greatly slowed down the process, I don't doubt, but not stopped.

We know, for instance, that the bodies of Gollum and the Nazgul changed (as you pointed out) while they were in possession of the rings. Change can not exist without the passing of time. (I think it can also be argued that time can't exist without change. There is actually quite a bit of overlap between these two terms.) The changing of the body over time could probably be used as a definition for aging.

Also, it wouldn't make sense that the Elves wanted to live in a completely static world. That would be unnatural for them just as it is for us (and for good reason, life couldn't exist in such a world.) So, it is unlikely that the rings were designed to bring time to a standstill.

On the whole, I like your theory, Gordis. But I do have a problem with the whole issue of true "timelessness". At least while dealing with physical bodies. Once the Nazgul became wraiths, things were probably different.

[Alcuin]

Here’s an idea that follows upon the recent discussion and yet ties back into the beginnings of the thread.

The Dwarves claimed that Celebrimbor gave one of the Seven Rings to his friend, Durin III of Khazad-dûm.

Remember the Ring-spell:

Three rings for the Elven kings… Seven for the Dwarf-lords… Nine for Mortal Men.

Sauron planned all along to enslave the Free Peoples: the two EruhÃ*ni and the Dwarves. We know very little about the development of this nefarious plan: was it already fully-formed when first he approached Gil-galad and Galadriel warned that she had known no “Annatar” in the train of Aulë in Valinor? Or might a generous and heart-felt gift of the greatest of the Seven have later inspired Sauron to use the repertoire of Rings enslave not only the Elves but Dwarves – and Men – as well?

Let’s work through Appendix B for the Second Age:

• 1200 – Sauron endeavors to seduce the Eldar. Gil-galad refuses to treat with him; but the smiths of Eregion are won over. The Númenóreans begin to make permanent havens.
• ca. 1500 – The Elven-smiths instructed by Sauron … begin the forging of the Rings of Power.
• ca. 1590 – The Three Rings are completed in Eregion.
• ca. 1600 – Sauron forges the One Ring... Celebrimbor perceives the designs of Sauron.

The Númenóreans’ first permanent haven was Vinyalondë, from which Tar-Minastir’s admiral Ciryatur launched an unexpected, devastating assault upon Sauron’s army from behind.

I think we can say that no Man possessed any of the Nine Rings until after the War between the Elves and Sauron in II 1693–1700. During the war, Sauron recovered the Seven and the Nine, presumably with the exception of Durin’s Ring, but could get no information from Celebrimbor about the disposition of the Three: he apparently assumed that Gil-galad had them, and did not perceive that Galadriel had one. Appendix B says that from ca. II 1800 onward, “The shadow falls on Númenor,” a clear indication that at least one of the Númenóreans with a Ring of Power had returned home and begun to work his Master’s evil will among the Dúnedain.

My questions are these:

1. Did the MÃ*rdain (smiths) of Eregion possess all the Great Rings before II 1693 with the possible exception of Durin’s Ring, or might they have given one to a Númenórean?
2. I’m fairly certain there is no reference of the Eldar giving a Ring to any non-Elf other than Durin III; but can we strictly rule that out?
3. The Dwarves claimed Celebrimbor gave Durin III his ring – are they correct? (I.e., might it have been Sauron disguised as Celebrimbor?)
4. Might Gil-galad, Elrond, and Galadriel have guessed who the three Ring-enslaved Númenóreans were?
5. If, as I have elsewhere asserted, one of them was a prince in the House of Elros, wouldn’t that individual have seemed to live an exceptionally long life even for a member of the House of Elros (and so helped inspire Tar-Atanamir to rebel and refuse to lay down his life)?

And finally, there is Gandalf’s discussion of the Rings with Frodo in Fellowship of the Ring, “Shadow of the Past”,

…sooner or later – later, if he is strong or well-meaning to begin with, but neither strength nor good purpose will last – sooner or later the dark power will devour him.

I believe Gandalf has a specific person in mind: a Númenórean prince or nobleman later identified as one of the Nine. If Glorfindel went to Middle-earth during or just before the disastrous War between the Elves and Sauron during the Second Age, then he may well have known one or more of these Men; Elrond almost certainly would have known some of them.

And wouldn’t that add a twist to Glorfindel’s confrontation with the Witch-king at the end of the last Battle of Fornost?

Just a thought on Friday evening to spice things up…

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by CAB

Just to be an irritating, technical, pain in the neck.

I can't agree with the idea that the rings completely stopped the aging process. That they greatly slowed down the process, I don't doubt, but not stopped.

We know, for instance, that the bodies of Gollum and the Nazgul changed (as you pointed out) while they were in possession of the rings. Change can not exist without the passing of time. (I think it can also be argued that time can't exist without change. There is actually quite a bit of overlap between these two terms.) The changing of the body over time could probably be used as a definition for aging.

Also, it wouldn't make sense that the Elves wanted to live in a completely static world. That would be unnatural for them just as it is for us (and for good reason, life couldn't exist in such a world.) So, it is unlikely that the rings were designed to bring time to a standstill.

On the whole, I like your theory, Gordis. But I do have a problem with the whole issue of true "timelessness". At least while dealing with physical bodies. Once the Nazgul became wraiths, things were probably different.

I agree that the Rings couldn't stop Time, they only made it flow at a much slower rate. But if it were say 100:1, even 30:1, for a Man it would be not much different from the stopped time. Maybe in the 200-300 years after they got the Nine rings, the nazgul aged 2 -3 years, or even 10 years - it wouldn't show much, if at all. In contrast, suffering could make even a slow-ageing Elf become grey and haggard in a few years.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Alcuin

Sauron planned all along to enslave the Free Peoples: the two EruhÃ*ni and the Dwarves. We know very little about the development of this nefarious plan: was it already fully-formed when first he approached Gil-galad and Galadriel warned that she had known no “Annatarâ€� in the train of Aulë in Valinor? Or might a generous and heart-felt gift of the greatest of the Seven have later inspired Sauron to use the repertoire of Rings enslave not only the Elves but Dwarves – and Men – as well?

I think at first Sauron planned to use all the Rings to enslave Elves. The Eldar were still strong in ME and a pain in the neck for Sauron. Numenoreans had only one haven in ME, and after Ancalime's times almost stopped to help the Eldar (Aldarion and Erendis). They reappeared in force only in 1700. Dwarves, IMO, were hardly a threat to Sauron, as long as he left them alone. Recently in "Narya" thread we have been discussing Sauron's plans with CAB. Please have a look, Alcuin.

Originally Posted by Alcuin

I think we can say that no Man possessed any of the Nine Rings until after the War between the Elves and Sauron in II 1693–1700. During the war, Sauron recovered the Seven and the Nine, presumably with the exception of Durin’s Ring, but could get no information from Celebrimbor about the disposition of the Three: he apparently assumed that Gil-galad had them, and did not perceive that Galadriel had one.

I think Sauron must have guessed that Galadriel had got one of the Three. He had seen Celebrimbor and Galadriel together, witnessed their friendship, he knew of Celebrimbor's admiration for her. Also see here:

Originally Posted by History of Galadriel and Celeborn, UT

Sauron withdrew the pursuit of Elrond and turned upon the Dwarves and the Elves of Lórinand, whom he drove back; but the Gates of Moria were shut, and he could not enter.
[...]But now Sauron attempted to gain the mastery of Eriador: Lórinand could wait. Now Sauron's immediate purpose was to take Lindon, where he believed that he had most chance of seizing one, or more, of the Three Rings;

Sauron didn't think all the Three would be in Lindon, and the attack of Lorinand was definitely on his tasks list.

Appendix B says that from ca. II 1800 onward, “The shadow falls on Númenor,� a clear indication that at least one of the Númenóreans with a Ring of Power had returned home and begun to work his Master’s evil will among the Dúnedain

.
I agree. And this Numenorean was definitely a very high-ranking person to have such an influence.

Originally Posted by Alcuin

My questions are these: 1. Did the MÃ*rdain (smiths) of Eregion possess all the Great Rings before II 1693 with the possible exception of Durin’s Ring, or might they have given one to a Númenórean? 2. I’m fairly certain there is no reference of the Eldar giving a Ring to any non-Elf other than Durin III; but can we strictly rule that out?

I am certain the Elves had not given a ring to a Man. The Mirdain had no recorded contacts with Numenoreans prior to 1700. Celebrimbor was well aware of the ring's properties, its connection with the Spirit World. He wouldn't try to experiment with a second-born, it would be a wicked thing to do. For the last reason I doubt Celebrimbor would ever give a Ring to Durin.

Originally Posted by Alcuin

3. The Dwarves claimed Celebrimbor gave Durin III his ring – are they correct? (I.e., might it have been Sauron disguised as Celebrimbor?)

No, I don't believe he did, see above. Quite probably Durin got the Ring from Sauron disguised as an Elf, messenger from Celebrimbor, already after Celebrimbor had been slain.

Originally Posted by Alcuin

4. Might Gil-galad, Elrond, and Galadriel have guessed who the three Ring-enslaved Númenóreans were? If one of them was a prince in the House of Elros, wouldn’t that individual have seemed to live an exceptionally long life even for a member of the House of Elros?

I am sure the Elves had guessed who the three Ring-enslaved Númenóreans were.
After all, the future nazgul must have stood like a sore thumb among the Island nobility. Just imagine it after a few centuries: a youthful-looking great-grandfather at the funeral of his ancient wife, grey children, greying grandchildren... After some time, the ring-wielders likely chose to settle in Middle-Earth, just to avoid curious looks - and that would bring them closer to the attention of the Elves.

Their fading must have looked like a devastating disease: cancer or something - and that among the nation that never knew illness... And then the report would come that those three had not died after all, but moved to Barad-Dur. At this point their names would be erased from Numenorean chronicles, only the dark tale would remain. And the dark tale of the three Numenorean lords who had joined the Enemy proved to be very persistent: Faramir heard it, though he knew not even that Isildur took the Ring.

Elrond, of course, would not be eager to reveal the Witch-King's name to anybody: it was his skeleton in the closet. It is bad PR to admit that your nephew ten times removed is now Sauron's right hand.

Originally Posted by Alcuin

I believe Gandalf has a specific person in mind: a Númenórean prince or nobleman later identified as one of the Nine.

As written in the drafts in HOME 6-7 (and this passage was an early element of the story), Gandalf's words likely referred to the Wizard King, head of his order, who had been ensnared by Sauron long ago. It seemed Gandalf had been an eye-witness of his colleague’s fading. But after Tolkien promoted Ganadlf to a Maia, this plotline had to be abandoned. If we suppose that the passage still refers to the Witch-King, then likely Gandalf got a first-hand account from somebody else. Glorfindel seems a likely choice.

Originally Posted by Alcuin

If Glorfindel went to Middle-earth during or just before the disastrous War between the Elves and Sauron during the Second Age, then he may well have known one or more of these Men; Elrond almost certainly would have known some of them.
And wouldn’t that add a twist to Glorfindel’s confrontation with the Witch-king at the end of the last Battle of Fornost?

.
Great minds...
Here

Originally Posted by Gordis

I believe Glorfindel and the WK were well acquainted in the Second Age. They must have come together to the ME from Numenor and fought side-by side against Sauron. That's why the WK was reluctant to fight Glorfindel and the latter has not tried to pursue him. And people normally don't make prophesies about the fate of total strangers they don't care about...

[CAB]

Originally Posted by Gordis

But if it were say 100:1, even 30:1, for a Man it would be not much different from the stopped time. Maybe in the 200-300 years after they got the Nine rings, the nazgul aged 2 -3 years, or even 10 years - it wouldn't show much, if at all. In contrast, suffering could make even a slow-ageing Elf become grey and haggard in a few years.

Agreed and agreed.

Originally Posted by Alcuin

Did the MÃ*rdain (smiths) of Eregion possess all the Great Rings before II 1693 with the possible exception of Durin’s Ring, or might they have given one to a Númenórean? I’m fairly certain there is no reference of the Eldar giving a Ring to any non-Elf other than Durin III; but can we strictly rule that out?

I agree with Gordis. The properties of the rings that made them stretch Men's lives were almost certainly in them from their beginning. This is not likely to be some twist that Sauron later added after recovering the rings. The Mirdain had to guess that the rings would be unhealthy for Men and may have assumed they would be unhealthy for the Dwarves also (who, of course, were no more immortal than Men).

Originally Posted by Alcuin

The Dwarves claimed Celebrimbor gave Durin III his ring – are they correct? (I.e., might it have been Sauron disguised as Celebrimbor?)

I don't believe this claim. Aside from the reasons mentioned before, this story reminds me of Gollum's "birthday present" and Bilbo's supposed "winning" of the Ring. It sounds like an attempt to put legitimacy on their possession of their ring.

Originally Posted by Alcuin

Might Gil-galad, Elrond, and Galadriel have guessed who the three Ring-enslaved Númenóreans were?

I think probably yes. I also wonder if they weren't familiar with one or more of the other Nazgul. A powerful leader among the Second Age ancestors of the Men of Rohan would likely have made an excellent target for Sauron. I am not sure that they had yet inhabited the area around Mirkwood at this time (where, I believe, they could be found for much of the Third Age), but surely they were somewhere in north-western Middle Earth. There were probably other outstanding individuals among other groups of Men in north-western Middle Earth who were on Sauron's list of potentials.

Originally Posted by Alcuin

If, as I have elsewhere asserted, one of them was a prince in the House of Elros, wouldn’t that individual have seemed to live an exceptionally long life even for a member of the House of Elros (and so helped inspire Tar-Atanamir to rebel and refuse to lay down his life)?

If I haven't mentioned it before, Alcuin, I have looked at your site before and found your ideas to be very convincing. Thank you for putting it up.

I agree that the Shadow falling on Numenor coincided with the future Witch King, a man in the royal house, receiving a ring (an opinion I developed while reading your theories on the matter) along with two other Numenoreans. It could have been the lengthened lifespans of these men that was the primary thing that inspired the King, or his refusal may have been more of a consequence of the other negative influences these men had. Voluntarily laying down one's life was something done by those umm...of purer thought. Atanamir had been corrupted. I'm not really disagreeing with your suggestion, but I do think there was probably more to it than just the King seeing the exceptional lifespan of the ring-holders.

[Alcuin]

Originally Posted by Gordis

I think at first Sauron planned to use all the Rings to enslave Elves.

I agree: the Ring-spell would appear to be a emendation in his plans.

Originally Posted by Gordis

I doubt Celebrimbor would ever give a Ring to Durin. ... Quite probably Durin got the Ring from Sauron disguised as an Elf, messenger from Celebrimbor, already after Celebrimbor had been slain.

and

Originally Posted by CAB

The properties of the rings that made them stretch Men's lives were almost certainly in them from their beginning. This is not likely to be some twist that Sauron later added after recovering the rings. The Mirdain had to guess that the rings would be unhealthy for Men and may have assumed they would be unhealthy for the Dwarves also (who, of course, were no more immortal than Men).

I am uncertain about this one. I don’t disagree: I am simply uncertain. Celebrimbor might well have understood enough about the Rings to know that it was unlikely to affect the lifespan of a Dwarf: without necromantic effects, the Rings would not be evil. Moreover, by constructing and using the Great Rings of Power, MÃ*rdain themselves were breaking “the rules”: they were themselves attempting to avoid the effects of time and manipulate Middle-earth using the spirit-realm in ways that Gil-galad, Galadriel, Elrond, and CÃ*rdan had rejected: it doesn’t make sense that Celebrimbor or his companions would suddenly have pangs of conscience about giving a Ring to his most important ally and trading partner. The effects of the Rings on the Dwarves was to make them greedy and irascible: but that might have been an effect brought on by the malice of the One Ring operating through the Seven rather than a native power of one of the Seven Rings: I do not believe the MÃ*rdain could have been cozened into making an artifact that, in and of itself, effected evil or evil influence.

That conclusion, I think, also opens the way for the Noldorin smiths to hand a Ring over to a Númenórean; but I agree that there do not seem to be any writings, inferences, or hints of any sort that this happened. I do not doubt that Númenórean explorers and traders made their way to Eregion, and I see no reason they would be unwelcomed at Ost-in-Edhil; but I think it is a stretch. As with the Seven Rings, I think the Nine Rings had no native evil effect when the MÃ*rdain made them: Gandalf believed they were dangerous to Mortals because of the power they could wield using the Rings, but he did not call them evil in and of themselves.

My question on this front is, can we rule out the MÃ*rdain giving a Ring to a Númenórean? Very nearly, perhaps; much less so, I think, with Durin III.

In turning two of the Three Rings over to Gil-galad, and Nenya over to Galadriel, Celebrimbor was, in essence, confessing his sins.

• First in regards to Gil-galad, who was the rightful High King of the Noldor, against whom Celebrimbor had effectively rebelled, set up Eregion, and run his own affairs as he saw fit: the last stronghold of the Fëanorians in Middle-earth. Celebrimbor was the last king from Fëanor’s line in either Middle-earth or Eldamar: he was apparently the only survivor on either side of the Great Sea of all the descendents of his famous grandfather with the seven sons, more sons than any other of the Eldar. Handing Gil-galad Vilya and Narya meant, basically, that Celebrimbor was saying (and may well have vocalized), I was wrong, and you were right, Gil-galad. Take these things, the greatest and perhaps the last of all my works, that I cannot bear to lose to Sauron, who deceived me despite your warnings, and guard them. You are my rightful liege-lord. Now I’m going back to confront my fate.
• Galadriel had dwelt in Eregion, too, and in at least one of the accounts of her histories (in Unfinished Tales), it was she, not Celebrimbor, who founded Eregion. Because she counseled against receiving “Annatar” and his knowledge, Celebrimbor rebelled against her, and she passed over (or under) the Redhorn Gate to Lothlórien, where she remained. By giving Nenya to Galadriel, Celebrimbor was admitting that he and the MÃ*rdain were in the wrong.

That Sauron in disguise had poisoned Celebrimbor’s reasoning in the same way that his master Morgoth poisoned the reasoning of Fëanor, his grandfather, makes a nice literary parallel. That Celebrimbor can admit his error, whatever its cause, repent, make amends, and face the consequences shows what a compete break he made with his father’s house: it was his redemption, I think, though a miserably hard one: Sauron tortured him to death. Celebrimbor son of Curufin is a flawed character, but of heroic proportions.

But among real-world Mortal Men, there is always that little bit of pride that hangs on, and I think it may have been in Celebrimbor, too: the next-greatest Ring of Power in possession of the Elves was the greatest of the Seven. I think he sought to hide it, too, from Sauron: Gil-galad, Galadriel, Elrond and CÃ*rdan, and all their counselors, would have no means of knowing this unless Celebrimbor told them: I don’t think he did.

When Unfinished Tales was published, CJR Tolkien added an in-line parenthetical note to the essay “Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn”:

It is not actually said here that Sauron at this time took possession of the Seven Rings, though the implication seems clear that he did so. In Appendix A (III) to The Lord of the Rings it is said that there was a belief among the Dwarves of Durin's Folk that the Ring of Durin III, King of Khazad-dûm, was given to him by the Elven-smiths themselves, and nothing is said in the present text about the way in which the Seven Rings came into possession of the Dwarves.

In order to argue that Sauron gave the Ring to Durin III, I think we have to believe that Sauron not only obtained the greatest of the Seven Rings from Celebrimbor before Celebrimbor was dead, but also before the West Gate to Moria was shut: in other words, before his attack on Eregion began.

There is another way in which Durin III could have come into legitimate possession of his Ring, and that is from escapees of the MÃ*rdain whom he rescued. Elrond had been sent from Lindon to Eregion by Gil-galad with an expeditionary force to try to keep Sauron at bay; when that failed (op. cit.),

[Sauron] turned upon the forces of Elrond. Elrond … would … have been overwhelmed had not Sauron’s host been attacked in the rear; for Durin sent out a force of Dwarves from Khazad-dûm, and with them came Elves of Lórinand [Lórien]…

Elrond led what remained of his force from Lindon and the survivors of the Elves of Eregion to a mountain fastness that became Rivendell. It is quite possible that Durin obtained his Ring of Power from any survivors he and Amroth of Lórinand rescued; alternatively, the Dwarves might have found and kept the Ring, claiming the MÃ*rdain gave it to them, as CAB suggests, in “an attempt to put legitimacy on their possession of their ring.”

I am uncertain whether Tolkien left this situation deliberately vague, whether the decisive text remains unpublished (or at least unknown to me), if he himself were undecided, or if he is telling us that the Wise either didn’t know how it came into the possession of Durin III, or that Men either never learned it of them or else failed to successfully pass along what they learned to later generations, a failing all too common by the end of the Third Age.

My instinct, for whatever it’s worth, is that Durin III did indeed obtain the Ring legitimately, and that this was a further cause for Sauron to hate Durin’s Folk.

This is a very long post, so before I’m out of space, I’d like to return to Rings and Men. First, thank you, CAB, for your compliment on my essay. Now I have another question to ponder: did the Númenóreans even know what the War between the Elves and Sauron was about? I can imagine that Gil-galad chose not to tell Minastir about the Rings of Power. I don’t believe he concealed that information: it would be dishonest – and quite dangerous – to conceal from one’s critical ally the nature and causes of the war, even if they were not widely spoken abroad: but perhaps that information was not so secret in the middle of the Second Age. We are not told. But in context of what we know about Elves, it just doesn’t stand to reason, in my opinion, that Gil-galad would fail to tell Minastir what was really going on. (It also begs the question, did the Dwarves of Khazad-dûm know the reasons for the war? They were the closest allies of the Elves of Eregion, and other than “Annatar,” the deepest in their counsels before the war.)

Before you make a judgment on this, consider that Boromir and Faramir knew quite a bit about Sauron and the One Ring: when Sam let slip that Boromir wanted the Enemy’s Ring in Henneth Annûn, Faramir put all the pieces of the puzzle together immediately. (His subsequent “I could have It now” display is remarkably similar to Aragorn’s at the Prancing Pony.) Boromir and Faramir are at the tail-end of Dúnedain upper-class lore and knowledge: their forebears knew far more, especially before their fall midway through the Second Age. Besides that, the Dwarves knew about the Rings, too: Thorin knew about it, and so did Glóin, who was cousin to both Thorin and Dáin II: the rulers and nobility of Middle-earth, the educated folk, knew about the Rings of Power. They might not have had complete or accurate information, but they knew about them.

If Minastir and his generals and admirals knew why they were fighting, then why would any right-thinking Númenórean in Middle-earth in the Second Age not long after a war over Rings of Power accept a ring from a stranger?

Even if the average Second Age Dúnedain sailor, infantryman, or archer knew little about the Rings of Power, the Dúnedain nobility almost certainly did. Now, I can imagine that one or two Númenórean noblemen might have been led astray by dreams of wealth and power, but at least one of them, the greatest of them, might not have been so tempted. That brings me back to Gandalf’s comments to Frodo,

…sooner or later – later, if he is strong or well-meaning to begin with, but neither strength nor good purpose will last – sooner or later the dark power will devour him.

I think that the fall of the man who became the Witch-king was through a desire to “set things right.” You can see a glimpse of it in further comments by Gandalf in his conversation with Frodo, and later in Frodo’s confrontation, if I may call it that, with Galadriel:

[Frodo said, ]“…You are wise and powerful. Will you not take the Ring?”

“No!” cried Gandalf… “With that power I should have power too great and terrible. … Do not tempt me! … the way of the Ring to my heart is by pity, pity for weakness and the desire of strength to do good…”

and

[Sam said, ]“…I think my master was right. I wish you’d take his Ring. You’d put things to rights…”

“I would,” [Galadriel] said. “That is how it would begin. But it would not stop with that, alas!...”

And now we come to the last point.

If the Númenóreans knew about the One Ring, then why didn’t Ar-Pharazôn demand that Sauron deliver up the One Ring to him when Sauron “surrendered” to him?

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Alcuin

Celebrimbor might well have understood enough about the Rings to know that it was unlikely to affect the lifespan of a Dwarf: without necromantic effects, the Rings would not be evil.

The Seven did confer invisibility, did transfer a person into the Spirit World. Only the Three didn't confer invisibility. So the Seven were potentially dangerous (Gandalf said in the "Shadow of the Past" that ALL the Elven Rings were dangerous for mortals, while the Great Rings -all of them- were perilous.)

One had to know a lot about the nature of the Dwarves, not about the nature of the rings, to predict that the folk of Aule wouldn't be much affected. I doubt even Sauron understood it beforehand. Experimenting on his good friend and ally Durin like on a laboratory mouse seems too evil for Celebrimbor. For all he knew, ANYTHING could happen to the Dwarf - especially taking into account the possible long-term effects. Indeed, if one monitored Men with the Nine, at the beginning everything must have seemed perfect - the transformation into Elves seemed achieved. But later... well... you know. So Celebrimbor couldn't have predicted anything for sure.

Originally Posted by Alcuin

I do not doubt that Númenórean explorers and traders made their way to Eregion, and I see no reason they would be unwelcomed at Ost-in-Edhil

I doubt any would be welcome to nose around: it was a top secret laboratory.

Originally Posted by Alcuin

As with the Seven Rings, I think the Nine Rings had no native evil effect when the MÃ*rdain made them: Gandalf believed they were dangerous to Mortals because of the power they could wield using the Rings, but he did not call them evil in and of themselves.

I disagree: the Nine Rings (and the Seven) were dangerous to Men all by themselves, because they unnaturally prolonged human lives, allowed unauthorized access into the Spirit world and eventually turned Men into wraiths.

Yes, the Rings were not really evil all by themselves, the Elves made them with good intent - but they made them for Elves, not Men or Dwarves. With an unspecific target any remedy may turn to poison - or may be ineffective. It reminds me of a story that has happened with one of my friends and her cat. My not-too-bright friend once tried to give her cat a human contraceptive. Being a human physician, she calculated the mass ratios very carefully, so the dose was OK for the cat's weight. Yet the poor cat almost died of it. The veterinary who saved the cat explained that some human drugs are pure poison for felines in any quantity - while for pigs human drugs are OK.

Originally Posted by Alcuin

My question on this front is, can we rule out the MÃ*rdain giving a Ring to a Númenórean? Very nearly, perhaps; much less so, I think, with Durin III.

I think Celebrimbor and the Mirdain hardly planned to disseminate their Rings even among other Elves, much less among Men and Dwarves. The Mirdain likely put huge chunks of their own fëar into the Rings - would they give them away so easily? One exception would be Galadriel, but Celebrimbor loved her....

Originally Posted by Alcuin

In turning two of the Three Rings over to Gil-galad, and Nenya over to Galadriel, Celebrimbor was, in essence, confessing his sins.

Yes, he did it when he was already a broken man - all hopes lost. I doubt he planned to give a ring to Gil-galad before 1600.

Originally Posted by Alcuin

But among real-world Mortal Men, there is always that little bit of pride that hangs on, and I think it may have been in Celebrimbor, too: the next-greatest Ring of Power in possession of the Elves was the greatest of the Seven. I think he sought to hide it, too, from Sauron: Gil-galad, Galadriel, Elrond and CÃ*rdan, and all their counselors, would have no means of knowing this unless Celebrimbor told them: I don’t think he did.

That is another matter - he could have given the ring to Durin after 1600, to hide it. But then he must have warned the Dwarf never to use it. It doesn't seem he did, because Durin and his descendants used the Rings in the SA.

Originally Posted by Alcuin

In order to argue that Sauron gave the Ring to Durin III, I think we have to believe that Sauron not only obtained the greatest of the Seven Rings from Celebrimbor before Celebrimbor was dead, but also before the West Gate to Moria was shut: in other words, before his attack on Eregion began.

The Gates of Moria were not always shut and sealed - Durin sent a host out of the Gate and let Amroth's host pass through Moria as well, I guess Durin also rescued those of the Mirdain who were lucky enough to make it to Moria.
I can devise at least three schemes to give the Ring to Durin without arising any suspicion. Note that Sauron, being the notorious deceiver (which I am not) could probably devise 300 schemes, one more brilliant than another.

Here are mine:
1.Sauron could pose as one of the surviving Mirdain, who came to deliver a Ring to Durin "at the late Celebrimbor's bidding".
2. Sauron could come to Durin in the guise of Celebrimbor himself, while the latter was sitting in a dungeon. Celebrimbor's fate remained unknown for some time, before his body was exposed on a pole by Sauron. (Remember that Saruman had no trouble to impersonate Gandalf - so Sauron could easily impersonate Celebrimbor, whom he knew so well).
3. Sauron could deliberately let one of the mortally wounded Mirdain escape with a ring to Moria. The Elf dies, his ring naturally goes to Durin, and no one suspects a trap.

Originally Posted by Alcuin

There is another way in which Durin III could have come into legitimate possession of his Ring, and that is from escapees of the MÃ*rdain whom he rescued.

Exactly my last plan.

Originally Posted by Alcuin

the Dwarves might have found and kept the Ring, claiming the MÃ*rdain gave it to them, as CAB suggests, in “an attempt to put legitimacy on their possession of their ring.”

And here is another possible scheme - a ring miraculously found right in front of Moria doors.

Only one thing seems certain to me: Durin wouldn't accept the Ring from Sauron if the latter was not concealing his identity. Thus there had to be some devious scheme used.

Originally Posted by Alcuin

My instinct, for whatever it’s worth, is that Durin III did indeed obtain the Ring legitimately, and that this was a further cause for Sauron to hate Durin’s Folk.

I think the Dwarves indeed BELIEVED they had obtained it legitimately, but in reality it did come from Sauron.

Originally Posted by Alcuin

Now I have another question to ponder: did the Númenóreans even know what the War between the Elves and Sauron was about? I can imagine that Gil-galad chose not to tell Minastir about the Rings of Power. I don’t believe he concealed that information: it would be dishonest – and quite dangerous – to conceal from one’s critical ally the nature and causes of the war, even if they were not widely spoken abroad: but perhaps that information was not so secret in the middle of the Second Age. We are not told. But in context of what we know about Elves, it just doesn’t stand to reason, in my opinion, that Gil-galad would fail to tell Minastir what was really going on.

If Minastir and his generals and admirals knew why they were fighting, then why would any right-thinking Númenórean in Middle-earth in the Second Age not long after a war over Rings of Power accept a ring from a stranger?

If the Númenóreans knew about the One Ring, then why didn’t Ar-Pharazôn demand that Sauron deliver up the One Ring to him when Sauron “surrendered” to him?

To all these questions there is a very simple answer: the Second Age Numenoreans didn't know about the Rings of Power - at least not about the existence of the Ruling Ring. The "noble" Elven lords failed to tell their allies and saviors what this war was about, as dishonest as it may seem.
I am not speculating. See this quote:

Sauron naturally had the One Ring, and so very soon dominated the minds and wills of most of the Númenóreans. I do not think Ar-Pharazôn knew anything about the One Ring. The Elves kept the matter of the Rings very secret, as long as they could. L#211

The Kings of Numenor from Tar-Minastir to Ar-Pharazon knew nothing on the subject. There was no loremaster in Numenor to enlighten them.

The Elves had deceived their main allies and continued to keep the secret as long as they could - I guess till Sauron has reappeared alive and hale after the Downfall and attacked Gondor.

"But how?" asks Isildur. "Hasn't Sauron perished with Numenor?"
"Well, he has this Ring, you know" reply the Elves guiltily.
"No, in fact I don't know. What Ring?"

Right before the Last Alliance Gil-Galad must have confessed his sins to Elendil and Isildur and told them the truth about the Rings and about the ancient War. Perhaps guilt made the Elves join the Alliance in the first place. From then on the Ring-Lore had become general knowledge, but even that was slowly becoming forgotten by 3018.

What did the Elves tell Tar-Minastir when they asked for help? Most likely that the Evil Sauron had attacked Eregion coveting the works of the Mirdain - which was the truth, but not the whole truth.

The future nazgul had no idea what rings they received and from whom. Rings of power made by Elves - that would be all. Nothing sinister there: Elven works of craft were normally wholesome and highly prized things. They had no idea that their Rings were subject to the Ruling Ring, and I guess they were quite surprised to discover it. And discover it they did, but too late for them.

Naturally they couldn't broadcast their predicament, but their feelings towards the Elves who had deceived them would turn to hatred. As the future nazgul were high Numenorean lords, their attitude towards the Elves would influence their compatriots - and here we come to the “inexplicable” estrangement of Numenoreans from Elves right after they had been allies in the victorious war.

[Alcuin]

<sigh> And after I waxed all so eloquent… Ah, well, it is a good thing that this is not my day job!

Originally Posted by Gordis

The Seven did confer invisibility, did transfer a person into the Spirit World. Only the Three didn't confer invisibility.

I finally read the thread “Narya - a gift for Annatar?”. In formulating a post for it, I came across this from “Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age” in Silmarillion,

Seven Rings [Sauron] gave to the Dwarves

which is about as direct a statement as they come. I concede the point.

The essay continues,

Dwarves … proved tough and hard to tame; they ill endure the domination of others, and the thoughts of their hearts are hard to fathom, nor can they be turned to shadows. They used their rings only for the getting of wealth; but wrath and an over-mastering greed of gold were kindled in their hearts, of which evil enough after came to the profit of Sauron…

Men ... who used the Nine Rings ... could walk, if they would, unseen by all eyes in this world beneath the sun, and they could see things in worlds invisible to mortal men; ... they became for ever invisible save to him that wore the Ruling Ring, and they entered into the realm of shadows.

I’ve always read the passage that Dwarves cannot “be turned to shadows” to mean they could not be made invisible; but since the passage continues that Men, “became for ever invisible …, and they entered into the realm of shadows,” I suppose I should reconsider.

Originally Posted by Gordis

I think the Dwarves indeed BELIEVED they had obtained it legitimately…

I agree whole-heartedly…

Originally Posted by Gordis

…but in reality it did come from Sauron.

<sigh> <pout> Spoil-sport.

-|-

Originally Posted by Gordis

I doubt any would be welcome to nose around: it was a top secret laboratory.

On this I can’t agree. Economics is little discussed in any of Tolkien’s work, but I think it is abundantly clear that Ost-in-Edhil was in contact with and traded with the Dwarves and the other Elf-kingdoms. The workshops of the Gwaith-i-MÃ*rdain were almost certainly off-limits, but the Noldor thought they had no reason to be fearful. 47 centuries later, when Aragorn led the Company of the Ring through the ruins, Frodo recognized “the remains of an ancient road that had once been broad and well planned from Hollin to the mountain-pass.” (Two Towers, “Ring Goes South”) Elves or no, trade and commerce are essential to organized communities. We are told there was heavy trade with Khazad-dûm, and there was also probably considerable trade with Lindon. Even if, as is likely, Annatar-Sauron discouraged contact with the Númenóreans, the Elves of Eregion probably traded with the newcomers, too: their main base was at Vinyalondë at the mouth of the Gwathló, and Tharbad, the main inland port, was hard by Eregion.

Originally Posted by Gordis

The Kings of Numenor from Tar-Minastir to Ar-Phartazon knew nothing on the subject. There was no loremaster in Numenor to enlighten them.

Yes, that looks familiar, too.

Well, so much for that speculative venture. About the only thing I think I can salvage is that it was fun, and that I think there was a lot of traffic – what we modern folk call “business” – going on in and through and around Eregion. There had to be, or the Elves there would not have been wealthy, as I think they plainly were: Tolkien separately enumerates the acquisition of wealth and power as attributes of the Seven and the Nine, and as Thrór told Thráin his son of his Ring, “it needs gold to breed gold.” ([RotK], Appendix A, “Durin’s Folk”)

But maybe I can pull a chestnut out of the fire.

The Great East Road that ran through The Shire was of extreme antiquity, going back to the First Age. It had been constructed by the Dwarves as a means of travel from Nogrod and Belegost to the mines of the Iron Hills. Eregion’s capital Ost-in-Edhil was probably along the road that originally ran from Nogrod and Belegost to Khazad-dûm: in at least one telling of the tale, Galadriel founded Eregion around II 700.

It’s always struck me as curious that Rivendell was “secret,” yet it was quite near the main east-west route across north-western Middle-earth. I think I can explain that now.

I think the text is clear that Nogrod was completely ruined at the end of the First Age: the maps show the Gulf of Lhûn where Nogrod once lay. Belegost lay to the south (Fonstad in Atlas of Middle-earth has Belegost more than 150 miles south of Nogrod as the crow flies, doubtless much further for travelers), and if it was not completely destroyed (I think that’s the correct inference), then it was heavily damaged. We know that most of the survivors of these two great cities joined Durin’s people in Khazad-dûm early in the Second Age.

That means that the Great East Road was little traveled for a while. The principal trade route of Eriador must have shifted south, from Lindon across Sarn Ford, through Tharbad (where the Númenóreans later built and maintained an enormous causeway-and-bridge that survived nearly but not quite intact until Boromir attempted to use it getting to Rivendell: that’s where he lost his horse), and on to Khazad-dûm, Lórien, Greenwood, and finally the Iron Hills. Eregion and Ost-in-Edhil lay along the road from Tharbad to Khazad-dûm. The Dwarves of Khazad-dûm controlled both the Redhorn Gate (Pass) over the mountains and the route under and through the mountains; besides that, they were themselves a major center for manufacturing, trade, and commerce.

Sauron and his army were apt to overlook a secluded valley, even near the old road. I don’t suppose he went in for such things as beautiful little valleys only the local Elves knew about. Once ensconced, I’m sure Elrond began covering his tracks, and did everything he could to keep it secret, at which Tolkien repeatedly indicates he was quite successful.

Naturally [the three Númenóreans trapped by Sauron] couldn't broadcast their predicament, but their feelings towards the Elves who had deceived them would turn to hatred. As the future nazgul were high Numenorean lords, their attitude towards the Elves would influence their compatriots - and here we come to the “inexplicable” estrangement of Numenoreans from Elves right after they had been allies in the victorious war.

Good point. Sauron’s army was annihilated in II 1700, and he barely made it back to Mordor with his bodyguards. “The shadow falls on Númenor” just 100 years later. All three of these men might have been serving in court when the emissaries arrived from Valinor to try to reason with Tar-Atanamir. In the various versions of “The Drowning of Anadûnê” presented in Sauron Defeated, the hostility of Tar-Atanamir and his court toward the Eldar is otherwise almost inexplicable; hence “the shadow” on Númenor. It wasn’t just Sauron’s evil will alone that drove these Men to denigrate the Elves, but a real sense of betrayal.

[CAB]

Originally Posted by Gordis

I doubt any would be welcome to nose around: it was a top secret laboratory.

I agree with Alcuin here. It was unnecessary to ban all traffic to Ost-in-Edhil. To do so would have been a politically and economically crippling mistake that would have drawn an enormous amount of suspicion from all corners.

Edit: Maybe, Gordis, you weren't suggesting that the Elves went to this extreme?

Originally Posted by Alcuin

Good point. Sauron’s army was annihilated in II 1700, and he barely made it back to Mordor with his bodyguards. “The shadow falls on Númenor” just 100 years later. All three of these men might have been serving in court when the emissaries arrived from Valinor to try to reason with Tar-Atanamir. In the various versions of “The Drowning of Anadûnê” presented in Sauron Defeated, the hostility of Tar-Atanamir and his court toward the Eldar is otherwise almost inexplicable; hence “the shadow” on Númenor. It wasn’t just Sauron’s evil will alone that drove these Men to denigrate the Elves, but a real sense of betrayal.

I agree with Alcuin again - This is an excellent suggestion, Gordis.

Alcuin, I like your idea about the trade route moving south in the Second Age and about this being part of the reason that Rivendell's location was able to remain a secret. It really is a shame that Tolkien didn't give us more information regarding the economies in Middle Earth. I prefer to consider Middle Earth as "realistically" as possible, but it is difficult given that trade in some ways seems to have been absolutely negligible (we hear very little about it, different groups of people seem very isolated, etc.) and yet in other ways it seems absolutely necessary to explain what we see (could these very advanced societies possibly have existed without trade and the exchange of ideas that accompanies it?).

I had an idea a while back that I hoped would provide some evidence that the economies in Middle Earth were more advanced than might otherwise be thought. I think I will start a new thread based on this idea within the next week or so. Given your knowledge concerning these kinds of matters in the real world, Alcuin, I hope you will find the time to comment on it. Gordis, of course you surely know that I am always looking for your input.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Alcuin

The essay continues, I’ve always read the passage that Dwarves cannot “be turned to shadows” to mean they could not be made invisible; but since the passage continues that Men, “became for ever invisible …, and they entered into the realm of shadows,” I suppose I should reconsider.

I don't think you have to reconsider. There is one clear statement about it in a draft of LotR:

'In the ancient days the dark master made many Rings, and he dealt them out lavishly, so that they might be spread abroad to ensnare folk. The elves had many, and there are now many elf- wraiths in the world; the goblins had some and their wraiths are very evil and wholly under the command of the Lord. The dwarves it is said had seven, but nothing could make them invisible. In them it only kindled to flames the fire of greed, and the foundation of each of the seven hoards of the Dwarves of old was a golden ring. In this way the master controlled them. But these hoards are destroyed, and the dragons have devoured them, and the rings are melted, or so some say. “Of Gollum and the Ring” in The Return of the Shadow.)

I agree whole-heartedly…<sigh> <pout> Spoil-sport.

Come on, don't be so sad, still I enjoyed your hypothesis immensely. As you said, it was fun.

Originally Posted by Alcuin

On this I can’t agree. Economics is little discussed in any of Tolkien’s work, but I think it is abundantly clear that Ost-in-Edhil was in contact with and traded with the Dwarves and the other Elf-kingdoms. The workshops of the Gwaith-i-MÃ*rdain were almost certainly off-limits, but the Noldor thought they had no reason to be fearful. 47 centuries later, when Aragorn led the Company of the Ring through the ruins, Frodo recognized “the remains of an ancient road that had once been broad and well planned from Hollin to the mountain-pass.” (Two Towers, “Ring Goes South”) Elves or no, trade and commerce are essential to organized communities. We are told there was heavy trade with Khazad-dûm, and there was also probably considerable trade with Lindon. Even if, as is likely, Annatar-Sauron discouraged contact with the Númenóreans, the Elves of Eregion probably traded with the newcomers, too: their main base was at Vinyalondë at the mouth of the Gwathló, and Tharbad, the main inland port, was hard by Eregion.

This makes a lot of sense.
As CAB said, I really didn't think that Celebrimbor ever closed his borders to Men, such as Numenorean woodcutters or soldiers from Vinyalonde, and certainly he did have wonderful relations with Moria Dwarves.

I was thinking more in term of noble Numenorean visitors to Ost-in Edhil (as we were discussing the possibility of delivering a Ring to a Numenorean lord prior to 1697). I still don't think there were many of them, if any.

I imagine that in the SA there was a sort of short sight-seeing routine for the noble Numenoreans visiting ME. For early visitors, like Aldarion or Veantur, to visit Lindon and say "Hi" to Gil-Galad and to great-...-great uncle Elrond would be a must, then to sail to Vinyalonde and take care of it. But I am not sure any of them ventured as far as Eregion, especially after Celebrimbor's rebellion in 1400, considering the strained relations of Eregion with Lindon. I imagine Celebrimbor might refuse a visa for a Numenorean lord, just to spite Gil-Galad, who had refused a visa for Annatar.

Also the Island Men were potentially dangerous for Annatar. They would tell about him in Numenor, and there were still a lot of Elves from Tol-Eressea visiting the Island. The news of the Maia Aulendil could easily travel to Valinor itself, maybe even to Aule, and what is worse, the reply could travel back the same way: the next visitor could bring a warning against him.

Then, it may be just my impression, but it seems the Numenoreans of note rarely sailed to ME between the times of Aldarion and Ciryatan. We know that "After Aldarion's death Ancalime neglected all his policies and gave no further aid to Gil-galad"- The Line of Elros. It was the young Ciryatan and his followers who resumed coming to ME on a regular basis. I guess they visited not only Lindon, but also Rivendell and traveled along the Great Road, saw the Great Barrows and the Hithaeglir, saw the ruins of Eregion and probably founded a settlement in Tharbad. But it was already after 1700.

Originally Posted by Alcuin

It’s always struck me as curious that Rivendell was “secret,” yet it was quite near the main east-west route across north-western Middle-earth. I think I can explain that now. [...] That means that the Great East Road was little traveled for a while. The principal trade route of Eriador must have shifted south, from Lindon across Sarn Ford, through Tharbad

You must be quite right here, Alcuin. Very enlightening.

Originally Posted by Alcuin

Good point. Sauron’s army was annihilated in II 1700, and he barely made it back to Mordor with his bodyguards. “The shadow falls on Númenor” just 100 years later. All three of these men might have been serving in court when the emissaries arrived from Valinor to try to reason with Tar-Atanamir. In the various versions of “The Drowning of Anadûnê” presented in Sauron Defeated, the hostility of Tar-Atanamir and his court toward the Eldar is otherwise almost inexplicable; hence “the shadow” on Númenor. It wasn’t just Sauron’s evil will alone that drove these Men to denigrate the Elves, but a real sense of betrayal.

Quite so.
The emissaries must have come around SA 2029 - the year when Tar-Ciryatan ceded the Scepter to Tar-Atanamir (UT), because Akallabeth tells us that "these things took place in the days of Tar-Ciryatan the Shipbuilder, and of Tar-Atanamir his son". As the conference couldn't have lasted for dozens of years, it should then be placed around 2029. It could be that Ciryatan, confronted by the Messengers, laid down the scepter to allow his more determined son to reply in his stead (mirroring the situation with Tar-Meneldur and Aldarion).
Anyway, by 2029, the future nazgul would have had their Rings for about 200-300 years and already had time to realize the existence of the Ruling Ring and Elves's betrayal. Likely Atanamir listened to them more readily than Ciryatan, if, of course, he was not one of them himself.

This quote about Ar-Pharazon not knowing about the Rings struck me hard when I first found it - I will never forget the impression. It opens a totally knew insight into the Nazgul question and makes us doubt whether the Eldar were indeed as noble as LOTR portrays them.
Especially Gil-Galad the Elven King of whom the harpers sadly sing.... Yeah. Well, at least he had an occasion to repent before he died. Still "where he dwelleth none can say..." maybe still in Mandos along with Feanor and K. Elrond was also guilty as hell - after all, he was close kin to Numenoreans...

Originally Posted by CAB

I had an idea a while back that I hoped would provide some evidence that the economies in Middle Earth were more advanced than might otherwise be thought. I think I will start a new thread based on this idea within the next week or so. Given your knowledge concerning these kinds of matters in the real world, Alcuin, I hope you will find the time to comment on it. Gordis, of course you surely know that I am always looking for your input.

Go ahead, CAB - it sounds very interesting.

[Alcuin]

Originally Posted by Gordis

I don't think you have to reconsider. There is one clear statement about it in a draft of LotR:

Oh, good. It is a comfort not to be mistaken at all points. And thank you: I thought I had read that someplace, but I could never remember where. (I don't look through the drafts very often.)

Originally Posted by Gordis

Also the Island Men were potentially dangerous for Annatar.

Unquestionably. I think Sauron underestimated them, though, and still believed his principal threat was Gil-galad, which to a great extent was probably true: after all, Sauron had seen only one sea-borne invasion, the War of Wrath, and probably figured it was a one-time event. Besides, Númenor was most of the way to Eldamar – several weeks by ship – and out of sight is out of mind.

Originally Posted by Gordis

Then, it may be just my impression, but it seems the Numenoreans of note rarely sailed to ME between the times of Aldarion and Ciryatan.

Sailing to Middle-earth was an expensive and momentous undertaking. At first, and before there was a regular industrial complex to support it, a passage to Middle-earth required years of preparation, probably a crew of at least 20–40 men. As a reference, the Niña had a crew of 24, the Pinta of 26, and the Santa MarÃ*a had 40 crewmen. The distance to Númenor was similar to that of a voyage across the Atlantic. Only wealthy Númenóreans could set out before II 1200, when the Dúnedain began making permanent settlements, first at Vinyalondë (Lond Daer). One of the big draws in voyaging to Middle-earth for the average Númenórean yeoman farmer, fisherman, or forester was the wealth that he could bring home with him. Only after many hundred years of voyaging and building could the Númenóreans travel across the Great Sea as they pleased.

Originally Posted by Gordis

It could be that Ciryatan, confronted by the Messengers, laid down the scepter to allow his more determined son to reply in his stead

Tar-Minastir, who led the Númenórean expeditionary force to help Gil-galad, gave up his scepter unwillingly. The entry for Tar-Ciryatan in Unfinished Tales, “The Line of Elros: Kings of Númenor�, reads,

[Tar-Ciryatan] constrained his father to yield to him ere of his free will he would. In this way (it is held) might the first coming of the Shadow upon the bliss of Númenor be seen.

The word “constrained� is very strong. In Silmarillion, Morgoth is “constrained� to remain within the city of the Valar while on parole from Mandos and his binding in the chain Angainor (Silmarillion, “Fëanor and the Unchaining of Melkor�); and Morgoth’s epithet “Bauglir� means “the Constrainer� (index to Silmarillion). As we know, it means “to force by imposed stricture… or produce in an unnatural or strained manner�. Tar-Atanamir then took the scepter from his father, whom Tolkien does not say was “contrained,� and early in his reign, as you have noted, the emissaries from Valinor arrived.

Ciryatan left life of his own free will, as Númenóreans were permitted to do, and as Aragorn did; I think that means that, whatever his faults, he had not completely rebelled against the Valar. Atanamir was in open rebellion. And I might add, that rebellion was in fact a rebellion against Eru, as I believe the Faithful maintained.

This brings up an interesting point, though. Tar-Ciryatan kicked his father off the throne in II 1869. The “shadow falls upon Númenor� about II 1800. I think it is worth considering whether Tar-Minastir, enemy of Sauron and ally of the Eldar, smelled a rat or two in his court. I wonder if he might have been about to banish – or even unmask – a Ring-bearing Dúnadan or two in his court? I don’t think we could ever prove that, but the timing and situation seem interesting.

It makes sense that the three Dúnedain with Rings of Power had risen to prominence in Númenórean society by then. Their malign influence was felt everywhere, and I think it stands to reason that they instigated both Tar-Ciryatan’s coup against his father and Tar-Atanamir’s apostasy.

[Willow Oran]

Also the Island Men were potentially dangerous for Annatar. They would tell about him in Numenor, and there were still a lot of Elves from Tol-Eressea visiting the Island. The news of the Maia Aulendil could easily travel to Valinor itself, maybe even to Aule, and what is worse, the reply could travel back the same way: the next visitor could bring a warning against him.

Actually, that sort of scenario would help to explain Glorfindel very nicely.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Willow Oran

Actually, that sort of scenario would help to explain Glorfindel very nicely.

Indeed. But he came too late to save the Mirdain.
Here is, as far as I know, the last version of Glorfindel's history:

We may then best suppose that Glorfindel returned during the Second Age, before the 'shadow' fell on Numenor, and while the Numenoreans were welcomed by the Eldar as powerful allies. His return must have been for the purpose of strengthening Gil- galad and Elrond, when the growing evil of the intentions of Sauron were at last perceived by them. It might, therefore, have been as early as Second Age 1200, when Sauron came in person to Lindon, and attempted to deceive Gil-galad, but was rejected and dismissed. But it may have been, perhaps more probably, as late as c.1600, the Year of Dread, when Barad-dur was completed and the One Ring forged, and Celebrimbor at last became aware of the trap into which he had fallen. For in 1200, though he was filled with anxiety, Gil-galad still felt strong and able to treat Sauron with contempt. Also at that time his Numenorean allies were beginning to make strong permanent havens for their great ships, and also many of them had actually begun to dwell there permanently. In 1600 it became clear to all the leaders of Elves and Men (and Dwarves) that war was inevitable against Sauron, now unmasked as a new Dark Lord. They therefore began to prepare for his assault; and no doubt urgent messages and prayers asking for help were received in Numenor (and in Valinor).= Peoples of ME

Originally Posted by Alcuin

Sailing to Middle-earth was an expensive and momentous undertaking. At first, and before there was a regular industrial complex to support it, a passage to Middle-earth required years of preparation, probably a crew of at least 20–40 men. As a reference, the Niña had a crew of 24, the Pinta of 26, and the Santa MarÃ*a had 40 crewmen. The distance to Númenor was similar to that of a voyage across the Atlantic. Only wealthy Númenóreans could set out before II 1200, when the Dúnedain began making permanent settlements, first at Vinyalondë (Lond Daer). One of the big draws in voyaging to Middle-earth for the average Númenórean yeoman farmer, fisherman, or forester was the wealth that he could bring home with him. Only after many hundred years of voyaging and building could the Númenóreans travel across the Great Sea as they pleased.

Thank you for reminding me of the date 1200 for the first permanent settlements (Tale of Years). I had forgotten about it - so some of my previous reasoning may be wrong. It seems only Tar-Ancalime neglected ME, but her successors Tar-Anarion, Tar-Surion and Tar-Telperien might have shown a mild interest in it. Nothing comparable to the later expansion, which has happened after the War. In a way, Sauron brought it upon himself.

Originally Posted by Alcuin

Tar-Minastir, who led the Númenórean expeditionary force to help Gil-galad, gave up his scepter unwillingly.

I strongly believe Minastir himself stayed at home. It is told that he "sent" the fleet both in the TY and UT. Then he was not an adventurous guy, but more a dreamer.

Originally Posted by Alcuin

The entry for Tar-Ciryatan in Unfinished Tales, “The Line of Elros: Kings of Númenor”, reads,The word “constrained” is very strong. In Silmarillion, Morgoth is “constrained” to remain within the city of the Valar while on parole from Mandos and his binding in the chain Angainor (Silmarillion, “Fëanor and the Unchaining of Melkor”); and Morgoth’s epithet “Bauglir” means “the Constrainer” (index to Silmarillion). As we know, it means “to force by imposed stricture… or produce in an unnatural or strained manner”. Tar-Atanamir then took the scepter from his father, whom Tolkien does not say was “contrained,” and early in his reign, as you have noted, the emissaries from Valinor arrived.

It is clear that Tar-Minastir had very bad relations with his son, and likely with his grandson as well (Atanamir was already 69 in 1869 - a grown man who likely helped his dad to "constrain" Minastir). I am not sure what this disaccord was about: about budget allocation for the fleet, or more about faith and the Eldar. Anyway, there was a coup, and Minastir lost his scepter.
Most likely, Ciryatan took part in the War (btw, perhaps he was known as Ciryatur then?), he built and captained fleets, exploited ME, helped people to enrich themselves. So he must have been very popular in Numenor and had a lot of followers (old comrades-in-arms, sailors, workers of shipyards etc.), while Minastir, who spent his days locked in a tower gazing West, must have had none to defend him.

Ciryatan and Atanamir seem to be of like mind in all matters (both were "proud and greedy of wealth", UT), only the latter went further in everything, including apostasy. Ciryatan was "mighty", but Atanamir became "Great". I guess Ciryatan indeed left his scepter to Atanamir willingly, as he saw in him worthy progeny and successor. The interesting thing is that the transfer of the Scepter must have coincided with the arrival of the Ambassy from Valinor. There might be something in it.

Originally Posted by Alcuin

Ciryatan left life of his own free will, as Númenóreans were permitted to do, and as Aragorn did; I think that means that, whatever his faults, he had not completely rebelled against the Valar. Atanamir was in open rebellion. And I might add, that rebellion was in fact a rebellion against Eru, as I believe the Faithful maintained.

I agree. But even Atanamir was not yet in open rebellion against Eru. They continued to give their children Quenya names, use Sindarin, tend to the White Tree, ascend Meneltarma trice a year to pray to Eru. But Atanamir spoke against the Ban and declared his right to immortality.

Originally Posted by Alcuin

This brings up an interesting point, though. Tar-Ciryatan kicked his father off the throne in II 1869. The “shadow falls upon Númenor” about II 1800. I think it is worth considering whether Tar-Minastir, enemy of Sauron and ally of the Eldar, smelled a rat or two in his court. I wonder if he might have been about to banish – or even unmask – a Ring-bearing Dúnadan or two in his court? I don’t think we could ever prove that, but the timing and situation seem interesting.

You know what, Alcuin, the more I think on it, the more it seems likely that the "rats" Minastir smelled were his own son and grandson.

And here, Alcuin, I come to the main problem I have with your theory. In your theory, Ciryatan and Atanamir were constantly "influenced" to do this and "persuaded" to do that by the future nazgul, all the while being kept in the dark about the reason for all of it, the Rings. Yet, neither of these two kings strikes me as a person easily influenced, or easily duped. They were proud, arrogant and greedy with little moral inhibitions, born to rule and enjoying it immensely, yet highly intelligent and perceptive, able to see into the hearts of Men.

You agree that their minds became poisoned against the Elves, yet the Ring-wielders who allegedly persuaded them, couldn't possibly tell them of the Elves's betrayal: it would mean to disclose the Rings. And once someone like Atanamir learns or even suspects that one of his followers has a Ring of Power giving immortality, he would kill to obtain it, he would do anything to obtain it.

And look at it from Sauron's POV. No question it would have been in his interests to ensnare the King of Numenor himself. He managed to make a gift of a Ring to one of the princes of the Royal house, you say. Couldn't he tell him "And here is another one, a gift for your King. Please deliver it with my compliments". Would a future nazgul refuse? Would the King refuse, especially if he sees the beneficial effects a similar ring has on his kinsman?

I guess either Ciryatan or Atanamir had joined the merry fellowship of the Nine.

[Willow Oran]

Indeed. But he came too late to save the Mirdain.

Unless he returned in SA1200. Tolkien leaves quite a large window there. I usually go with SA1600 though, as I'm guessing you do also and his being too late to be more than another soldier (although a very good one)is one of the problems with his history. That off-hand comment about word of Annatar possibly getting back to the Valar opens the possibility of Glorfindel being specifically intended to counter whatever corruption of people's spirits Annatar was coming up with instead of being the general miltary help that he's usually assumed to be.

[Alcuin]

Originally Posted by Gordis

I guess either Ciryatan or Atanamir had joined the merry fellowship of the Nine.

It isn’t possible. Tolkien says that the Númenóreans embalmed their dead as did the Egyptians. The kings of Númenor were buried in Noirinan, the Valley of the Tombs, between the southwestern and southeastern spurs of Meneltarma.

Suppose for a moment that you were correct, and Ciryatan and Atanamir had become Nazgûl. No one noticed that they didn’t age normally? How then do you explain that Ciryatan gave up his scepter and then died a few years later? How do you explain that Atanamir refused to retire, became “unmanned� (suffered dementia, an all-too-common affliction of extreme old age), and died “perforce� (i.e., by force of nature)?

Moreover, “embalmed� like an Egyptian means that the internal organs were removed. The Egyptians also poured pitch into cadavers and cured the hollowed bodies for 60 days covered in natron (sodium carbonate decahydrate, Na2CO3•10H2O, or soda ash), a powerful dessicant (a chemical that soaks up water). Lots of people are involved in this process: it’s labor-intensive and time-consuming, and whatever the ancient Egyptians believed, there isn’t much left of the body at the end except the shell.

Everyone would notice if Tar-Ciryatan and Tar-Atanamir were not properly gutted and salted like so much dried fish and buried with lots of pomp and circumstance. All the courtiers, family members, hangers-on, soldiers, sages, and – most importantly – the emerging opposition party of the Faithful would have noticed if the kings had not aged normally.

Finally, which of Nazgûl do you suppose to be so humble, so self-effacing as to give up his throne, surrender his scepter to another? That’s not a characteristic of a man with magically-enhanced charisma, intelligence, strength, and stamina – not to mention a magically-enhanced ego. It doesn’t make any sense. If a Nazgûl or proto-Nazgûl had control of the throne of Númenor, he wouldn’t give it up!

Besides if this were the case, instead of saying that Tar-Ciryatan gave up his scepter, died, and was buried, but Tar-Atanamir clung to life until he lost himself and fell from his throne “unmanned,� don’t you think Tolkien would have made some kind of comment about it?

Be reasonable. It’s not like this would be a niggling little item in the tales, is it?

-|-

Originally Posted by Gordis

I strongly believe Minastir himself stayed at home. It is told that he "sent" the fleet both in the TY and UT. Then he was not a sort of adventurous guy, but more of a dreamer.

I disagree. Tar-Minastir is always credited with sending the fleet to Middle-earth and the victory over Sauron. But his aunt, the unmarried second Ruling Queen, Tar-Telperiën, was on the throne until II 1731, three decades after the war was over. I think a solid explanation for this is that Telperiën, who seems to have been rather wise (I think she avoided marriage because of the disastrous experience of vengeful and petty Tar-Ancalimë, in whose miserable household her father, grandfather, and her unhappy aunts – whom Ancalimë refused to allow to marry – had all grown up), decided that her vigorous nephew was better suited to lead the effort than she.

There is a parallel in Gondor. Narmacil I and Calmacil of Gondor, the sons of Atanatar II Alcarin, ruled one after another as king of Gondor: Narmacil had no issue, so Calmacil succeeded him. Both used Calmacil’s son Minalcar as regent. Minalcar was an extremely vigorous and effective regent, and upon his succession, he took the throne-name Rómendacil II.

As Regent of Gondor, Minalcar Rómendacil was known as the Karma-kundo (“Guardian of the Helm�). And since the Kings of Númenor refused to surrender their scepters or give up their lives, several of them must have suffered the same fate of dementia as Atanamir: this was probably a well-established office by the days of Minalcar. Ancalimon almost certainly had to perform this duty for his father, Tar-Atanamir, when he reached his dotage. The entry for his son, Telemmaitë, in the “Line of Elros� in Unfinished Tales says that

Hereafter the Kings ruled in name from the death of their father to their own death, though the actual power passed often to their sons or counselors; and the days the descendants of Elros waned under the Shadow.

I think that the context of the story strongly suggests that Minastir was either ruled jointly with his aunt or, more likely, as regent in change of the expedition to Middle-earth. The Númenóreans had never attempted anything like it: it required specialized knowledge, a thorough grasp of logistics, and considerable military skill. It would have been on the order of the Invasion of Normandy – launched from New York! It was a full-time job, and whomever was in charge would effectively be acting as a king or viceroy – or regent. The evidence strongly argues that Minastir was given plenipotentiary powers in this effort, but his aunt retained her power, and probably her veto if he got out of line.

Minastir was responsible for the expedition in II 1700. Tar-Telperiën gave up her throne and died in II 1731. Now, what would little Númenórean school-children learn during the reign of Tar-Minastir, that Tar-Telperiën was responsible for the expedition, or that Tar-Minastir was?

And in comparison to having a Ringwraith - or two - for a king, whether Minastir led the expedition to Middle-earth or just its massive preparations (like the American General George C Marshall, who led and coordinated the American war effort in World War II for all theaters in which we participated, but was never allowed to leave Washington) as king, regent, co-ruler, or just the Queen’s Nephew and Heir, is a niggling point.

[Gordis]

First let us deal with minor points.

Originally Posted by Alcuin

I disagree. Tar-Minastir is always credited with sending the fleet to Middle-earth and the victory over Sauron. But his aunt, the unmarried second Ruling Queen, Tar-Telperiën, was on the throne until II 1731, three decades after the war was over. I think a solid explanation for this is that Telperiën, who seems to have been rather wise (I think she avoided marriage because of the disastrous experience of vengeful and petty Tar-Ancalimë, in whose miserable household her father, grandfather, and her unhappy aunts – whom Ancalimë refused to allow to marry – had all grown up), decided that her vigorous nephew was better suited to lead the effort than she.

Minastir - vigorous? I call Minastir "dreamer" because he was one. Here is what is written about him:

Tar-Minastir. This name he had because he built a high tower upon the hill of Oromet, nigh to Andúnië and the west shores, and thence would spend great part of his days gazing westward. For the yearning was grown strong in the hearts of the Númenóreans. He loved the Eldar but envied them. He it was who sent a great fleet to the aid of Gil-galad in the first war against Sauron. He was born in the year 1474, and ruled for 138 years; he surrendered the sceptre in 1869, and died in 1873. - UT, Line of Elros

In all his life he did but one useful thing. One day his aunt Queen Telperien, likely dragged him out of his tower and explained that if he wished to be King one day, he should better do some work, like prepare this fleet for ME. Which he did - and later took all the credit for it. Perhaps he was even enthusiastic about promoting the expedition, destined to help his beloved Eldar. But he didn't sail with the fleet, didn't fight and it is told nowhere that he ever visited ME. Nobody said he liked ships or the Sea - only his beloved Elves. The contempt his son Cityatan had for him was largely due to his favorite occupation - gazing West. I doubt he could have been a strong King with such tastes. And then he lost his throne in a coup.

There is a parallel in Gondor. Narmacil I and Calmacil of Gondor, the sons of Atanatar II Alcarin, ruled one after another as king of Gondor: Narmacil had no issue, so Calmacil succeeded him. Both used Calmacil’s son Minalcar as regent. Minalcar was an extremely vigorous and effective regent, and upon his succession, he took the throne-name Rómendacil II.

Yes -and later he has become as vigorous and effective King as he used to be Regent. No time spent gazing West, but a lot of time spent conquering Rhovanion, pacifying the Northmen, trying to appease the coastal provinces and building the Argonath statues. Romendacil had a personality entirely different from Tar-Minastir, though both may have been regents.

And there is another explanation possible: namely that at the time of writing of LOTR appendices, Telperien was supposed to surrender the Scepter earlier - and Minastir was supposed to be already King in 1697. Then Minastir would only be responsible for the decision to help Gil-galad (quite natural for him) and automatically would take credit for the preparation of the fleet, even if all the actual work was done by underlings.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Gordis

I also dislike the correction he made in the TY in the entry about Tar-Atanamir and Tar Ancalimon - What if his father had made this "mistake" on purpose? If you think you see a mistake, make a footnote, but leave the text as JRRT left it!

Originally Posted by Galin

'Is there anything necessarily problematic here with the TYs as published? I must admit I have not looked closely at this particular issue myself (yet).'

Well, you see in my edition of the Tale of Years the entry for 2251 is:

2251 Tar-Atanamir takes the sceptre. Rebellion and division of the Númenoreans begins. About this time the Nazgûl or Ringwraiths, slaves of the Nine Rings, first appear.

In UT the Line of Elros the entry for Atanamir reads:

XIII Tar-Atanamir the Great
He was born in the year 1800, and ruled for 192 years, until 2221, which was the year of his death. [...]Atanamir is called also the Unwilling, for he was the first of the Kings to refuse to lay down his life, or to renounce the sceptre; and he lived until death took him perforce in dotage.

The note No 10 reads:
In the Tale of Years (Appendix B to The Lord of the Rings) occurs the entry: "2251 Tar-Atanamir takes the sceptre. Rebellion and division of the Númenóreans begins." This is altogether discrepant with the present text, according to which Tar-Atanamir died in 2221. This date 2221 is, however, itself an emendation from 2251; and his death is given elsewhere as 2251. Thus the same year appears in different texts as both the date of his accession and the date of his death; and the whole structure of the chronology shows clearly that the former must be wrong. Moreover, in the Akallabêth (The Silmarillion p. 266) it is said that it was in the time of Atanamir's son Ancalimon that the people of Númenor became divided. I have little doubt therefore that the entry in the Tale of Yeas is in error for a correct reading: "2251 Death of Tar-Atanamir. Tar-Ancalimon takes the sceptre. Rebellion and division of the Númenóreans begins." But if so, it remains strange that the date of Atanamir's death should have been altered in "The Line of Elros" if it were fixed by an entry in the Tale of Years.

Now, as far as I understand though I don't remember where I read it, in the most recent printings of LOTR this entry in the TY is corrected as Christopher suggested. If you could find more about it it would be great.

Why is it important? Because original entry in TY makes either Tar-Minastir or Tar-Ciryatan a nazgul.
Look here: in 1700 king Tar-Minastir sends the fleet to ME. In 2251 (551 years later) his son Ciryatan surrenders the scepter to Atanamir. Someone here has lived too long!
Was it intended, or was it a mistake? Maybe it was, but is it enough to correct the canonic text?

[Galin]

Originally Posted by Gordis

(...) Why is it important? Because original entry in TY makes either Tar-Minastir or Tar-Ciryatan a nazgul.

Look here: in 1700 king Tar-Minastir sends the fleet to ME. In 2251 (551 years later) his son Ciryatan surrenders the scepter to Atanamir. Someone here has lived too long! Was it intended, or was it a mistake? Maybe it was, but is it enough to correct the canonic text?

Is it certain that someone has lived too long according to Tolkien-published description? If I may, putting aside the Nazgul theory for a moment, take for example the birth of Silmarien in 548 (Appendix B), and we can note too that she was the 'elder child' of Tar-Elendil (Appendix A).

Thus she was not born in 521 (UT) nor was Tar-Meneldur born in 543 (UT). However, can The Line of Elros be altered somewhat to fit the published Lord of the Rings, and still work?

In what time I have had, I've done a little work, but I have not brought the revisions all the way through the line of Kings yet, and I would be interested to see how you, or anyone else, would go about such a project. The framework to build around is Tolkien-published text. Departure from Unfinished Tales or other unpublished description is allowed of course, and necessary in part, but (for example) where I could I retained details, like altering Tar-Meneldur's birth by 22 years (based on UT) but working with the Appendix in Return of the King for the date.

I generally tried to work within, or close to, the guidelines set out by The Line of Elros (or LE) for example.

[Gordis]

Well it sounds most interesting, Galin! Could you perhaps share your time-scheme when it is ready?

I wholly agree: App. A should take precedence over LE. After all, Tolkien COULD revise the LOTR text for the second edition if he so wished, but he didn't.
A published text should take precedence anyway.

As for UT the Line of Elros, the important thing is the dating and how sure it is. Was it written before or after the App. A?
I have seen some lists dating it as late as 1968, IIRC.

What seems curious about this text, is its train-timetable-like appearance: too neat, every early King living almost exactly 400 years, no accidents, no premature deaths. The age difference between siblings is always very close to 10-12 years. See here Line of Elros UT

It just doesn't happen in real life.