Nazgûl in the Prancing Pony?

[Coffeehouse]

As for the Nazgûl. They got it right in some places, but in the moments where real risk-taking, coolness of mind and affirmative action was required, they came short.

The Nazgûl should be judged for what their ultimate purpose in 'life' is, finding the One Ring. They are Ringwraiths, who's entire servitude under Sauron in the Third Age centers around Sauron's number one priority, finding the ring. So really, the question should be as to during which situations the Nazgûl acted with incompetence in relation to their ultimate goal and the circumstance of any specific point in time that the Ring was close.

Here are some points:

Originally Posted by Gordis

In all cases it was ol' Khamûl the Easterling of Dol Guldur.
Khamul didn't really expect to find "the Baggins" at Bag End.

Why didn't Khamûl expect to find 'the Baggins' at Bag End when he was informatively told by Gaffer Gamgee that Frodo Baggins had left for Buckland? I can't really see a defence for this. Can anyone provide one?

Originally Posted by Gordis

The two nazgul in Bree were just... well...not too good to put it mildly: they had almost captured Merry, but panicked when Nob came shouting with a lantern... Pitiful indeed.

This to me is an example of outright incompetence. The Nazgûl have, collectively, been in hot pursuit of 'the Baggins' and the One Ring for a nearly a week, an eventful number of fast-paced days. To come that close to what is obviously something that resembles 'the Baggins' and not act can't easily be characterized as anything but incompetent.

Originally Posted by Gordis

And really the most obvious reason for their failure is that they had no luck at all. Fortune favors good guys... Sauron knew it quite well:

This isn't entirely true. If I was to point out two examples of relatively good luck it would have to be the Nazgûl coming across the Dunlending, getting valuable information, maps and names. That is lucky for a band of riders whom have been off the scent for the entire summer.
The second piece of luck would be Khamûl learning of Frodo's journeying towards Buckland. Although it was unlucky that Frodo had left, they were now knowledgeable about his relatively immediate whereabouts, and wouldn't you know it, Khamûl himself came across the three hobbits a forthnight later, which proves what luck he had.

The Nazgûl did do somethings right:
1. They employed a reasonably intelligent tactic wherein the team split up into smaller groups. This enabled them to cover greater expands of land and it gave them more stealth since they emitted less 'fear factor' by themselves than when united, and this 'fear factor' was more times than not unhelpful to them in the Shire area all the way to Bree.
2. They usually went to the right places. The Witch-king went to the Barrow-downs, which was good thinking. They visited Hobbiton, Buckland, Bree, etc and focused their efforts on places that were part of the three-four hobbit's path of journeying.

These two elements, a tactic of stealth and striking at the correct places, were competent moves. But I expect more. Had these Nazgûl been new to the business of searching, and had they not known that Sauron was furious about how slow things had been going since the summer, then they should perhaps be forgiven for their errors. That's not the case though. They had been in pursuit of the One Ring for over 2 months (counting their travels east of the Misty Mountains) and they knew that Sauron at this point, although interested in a stealthly approach, still emphasized speed over stealth. I.e., he wanted to get done with this business.

So although the tactic of stealth was a reasonable approach, this tactic should have been substituted with another tactic as situations unfolded: affirmative action. Shock and awe!
After the Nazgûl crossed the Sarn they had arguably two defining moments where they failed, and it wasn't just any Nazgûl that failed. It was Khamûl, followed by the Witch-king himself.
1. Khamûl, having the fortune to be told by Gaffer Gamgee of Frodo's relative whereabouts actually comes across the three hobbits. What follows is a question mark to me. Yes Gildor and the High Elves pass near by, but before this happens the Lieutenant couldn't possibly have missed the hobbits. Foregoing that opportunity of taking the Ring is an example of some serious underperformance. Incompetence at a time when a cool head and swift action could have made the difference. But Khamûl demonstrated that he wasn't up to the task.
2. The Witch-king, accompanied by Khamûl and three other Nazgûl, though only attacking Frodo with two of them, manages to miss Frodo's heart in a 3 versus 1 combat. This is obviously before Aragorn intervenes. The Witch-king is in these defining seconds in front of 'the Baggins', with the One Ring on his finger, lit up in front of him like a Christmas Tree. The Witch-king has dealt deathblows to his enemies for hundreds and thousands of years, a length of time that any warrior that ever existed in our own world would drool at, and manages to not strike Frodo with the expect pin-point precision into 'the Baggins' heart. I don't expect the Witch-king to hit right above the heart, or right below it. I expect him to hit it square on! Not a millimeter shy of the target!
Yet we all know the story, the Witch-king misses, hitting the shoulder instead, while admittedly leaving splinters in the said hobbit's body, ultimately fails. That is incompetence. But I would appreciate a defence of this if anyone can offer it

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Coffeehouse

The Nazgûl should be judged for what their ultimate purpose in 'life' is, finding the One Ring. They are Ringwraiths, who's entire servitude under Sauron in the Third Age centers around Sauron's number one priority, finding the ring.

That is wrong, IMO. Searching for the Ring was far from the nazgul's 'ultimate purpose in 'life'. In the Second Age and for the most of the Third Age their ultimate purpose was to rule countries and fight Sauron's enemies, maybe serve as ambassadors, but never to hunt like a pack of wolves. Especially not hunt something so small and elusive as hobbits. They were quite new to the business - not too good at it, and, I guess, hated it. Sauron started searching for the Ring in earnest since 3017, when he had questioned Gollum. The nazgul became involved in June-July 3018.

Originally Posted by Coffeehouse

Why didn't Khamûl expect to find 'the Baggins' at Bag End when he was informatively told by Gaffer Gamgee that Frodo Baggins had left for Buckland? I can't really see a defence for this. Can anyone provide one?

Khamul must have expected that the Ring had already left the Shire and was moving to Rivendell. The Gaffer had confirmed this, but also said that Baggins "left this morning". Thus Baggins had to be still nearby, and Khamul rushed to hunt along the east road. In hindsight, yes, it would have been better to go up to the hole and check...

Originally Posted by Coffeehouse

So although the tactic of stealth was a reasonable approach, this tactic should have been substituted with another tactic as situations unfolded: affirmative action. Shock and awe!
But Khamûl demonstrated that he wasn't up to the task.

Actually Tolkien agrees with you:

But desiring to attract as little notice as possible [Khamul] (mistakenly and against Sauron's orders) sacrifices speed to stealth. -RC p.164

Everyone has his faults. Khamul was ring-sensitive, but also confused in daylight and very cautious and indecisive overall.

Now the two nazgul in Bree *sigh*. Let us try to find some excuses for these poor guys.

To come that close to what is obviously something that resembles 'the Baggins' and not act can't easily be characterized as anything but incompetent.

Merry got caught by the east gate of Bree, far-far from the Prancing Pony. He was not the only hobbit in Bree, not even one of the four hobbits in Bree - there were lots and lots of them, hundreds or more, all alike. Merry was caught far from the Inn, he had no Ring - why the nazgul would deem keeping and questioning him important? There was nothing to link Merry to the Ringbearer.
Moreover, at the moment, the nazgul were trying very hard not to cause any commotion, because at the very same time, Bill and the Southerner were telling them something very important: the story about a hobbit disappearing into thin air in the common room of the Pony.

Now they knew beyond doubt that the Ring was in the Inn. One of the three nazgul immediately rode away to warn the WK. Indeed, nazgul forces were spread at the moment from the Shire to Weahertop to Andrath - it was high time to gather together in Bree.

Actually the question who has burglared and trashed the hobbits rooms is moot, IMO - most likely they were at it together. I don't see the two nazgul remaining in Bill's house while they sent some cowardly, greedy, untrustworthy ruffians to get The One Ring of all things.

I see the scene this way. The remaining two nazgul, Bill, the Southerner, and maybe also Harry, waited till everyone in the Inn went to bed. Then some of the ruffians (not the nazgul) went into the stables, quietly stole all the horses and ponies, with the exception of the one belonging to the Southerner.The animals were led to the West gate and Harry the Gatekeeper opened it to let them out.
The others, meanwhile, came around to the north side of the Inn to the hobbit-rooms windows. The ringwraiths were eager and hopeful, while the ruffians were very much afraid of their undead accomplices, only the promise of a reward was driving them on. Likely it were Ferny and the Southerner who forced open the window, quietly and professionally as thieves or spies, and slipped inside in silence. The nazgul waited right outside.

Then Ferny and the Southerner got out of the window and whispered fearfully: "There is no one inside, they are gone."

What? The nazgul, forgetting their wraithy dignity, climbed, cursing, inside through the hobbit-sized windows - with their swords, long cloaks and heavy riding boots - to check for themselves. That was when the nazgul got in a fit, all their hopes shattered...That was when the beds were tossed about, and the bolsters slashed and hacked with the swords and flung upon the floor and the brown mat representing Frodo's head was torn to pieces.

I highly suspect that the Southerner and Ferny used this time to run away - who would want to wait and see if the nazgul would vent their anger on something other than furniture?

The sensible thing to do, IMO, was not to make any fuss, but to send the Southerner to search the inn quietly. He was staying in the inn - so he had full access there. He could simply ask Butterbur or Nob where to find the hobbits, inventing some plausible story. But the two nazgul did nothing of the kind. The vandalism in the inn was quite unnecessary and could be explained only by hysterics and the loss of control. Then we learn (from RC) that the two nazgul went directly to Andrath to cry on the Witch-King's shoulder, abandoning Bree unguarded. This is pure incompetence and the WK was mad at them - and rightly.

[Coffeehouse]

Thank you for the reply

You're right, I generalized a bit too much on their 'ultimate goal in life', but what I really wanted to get at was that, as skilled hunters and warriors they were, consumed in will to serve only Sauron, and had one, singular goal in the year 3018. Now, although they didn't hunt for the ring before that time there were two basic elements required for this hunt which they had been having the time to practice for hundreds and thousands of years: namely stealth, and nocturnal moving/hunting/fighting.
And yeah, like you put it: "But the two nazgul did nothing of the kind. The vandalism in the inn was quite unnecessary and could be explained only by hysterics and the loss of control. Then we learn (from RC) that the two nazgul went directly to Andrath to cry on the Witch-King's shoulder, abandoning Bree unguarded. This is pure incompetence and the WK was mad at them - and rightly."

[Earniel]

Originally Posted by Gordis

The ringwraiths were eager and hopeful

There is, IMO, so much wrong with this image.

The vandalism in the inn was quite unnecessary and could be explained only by hysterics and the loss of control.

The Nazgûl don't really strike me as the type to throw hissy hits. And if they really lost control after finding no one, I'm pretty sure they would have shrieked. In that aspect I think it more likely their human minions did the wrecking because now they had to go and explain things to the Nazgûl.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Eärniel

The ringwraiths were eager and hopeful.There is, IMO, so much wrong with this image. .

You want to say that the nazgul were NOT eager to get the Ring - to please Sau, to go back to their comfortable quarters in Minas Morgul, to stop wandering through hills and forests and mushroom fields, to stop digging Maggot's carrots to feed their horses, to have to endure with exemplary patience the rudeness of disgusting hairy-footed locals?

Originally Posted by Eärniel

The Nazgûl don't really strike me as the type to throw hissy hits. And if they really lost control after finding no one, I'm pretty sure they would have shrieked. In that aspect I think it more likely their human minions did the wrecking because now they had to go and explain things to the Nazgûl.

And were Ferny and Saruman's spy the type to throw hissy tantrums? Maybe they were - but not under the circumstances. Not when they were afraid. Not with the terrifying nazgul watching them.

Strider: [The Black riders] had words with Harry at West-gate on Monday. I was watching them. He was white and shaking when they left him.'

As for the shrieks, the nazgul hardly shrieked all the time as they did in the movie. They used shrieks in the Shire to find one another and only once, IIRC - and there were words in their cries. In RC we learn that by this cry Khamul summoned his buddy from Dol-Guldur.
The next time we hear a cry already on Weathertop.

And, Earniel, if it were Bill and the Dunlending trashing the room - wouldn't all the Inn hear their curses?

[Rían]

but in the movie I saw the Nazgul trashing the room!

*runs and hides*

[Earniel]

Originally Posted by Gordis

You want to say that the nazgul were NOT eager to get the Ring - to please Sau, to go back to their comfortable quarters in Minas Morgul, to stop wandering through hills and forests and mushroom fields, to stop digging Maggot's carrots to feed their horses, to have to endure with exemplary patience the rudeness of disgusting hairy-footed locals?

No, it's just that 'eager' and 'hopeful' are not words one easily connects to a couple of gloomy guys dressed in black and armour. Reading that sentence brought up the mental image of a ringwraith jumping up and down, clapping his hands and saying 'Ooh, joy, joy, joy.'

And, Earniel, if it were Bill and the Dunlending trashing the room - wouldn't all the Inn hear their curses?

Well, I imagine the doors of the Inn are thick enough so people don't hear much from the inside. The Inn didn't strike me as a cardboard-wall hotel. Because the creating a mess wasn't heard either if I recall correctly, and that should have accounted for some noice at least. And a few curses are not as loud as screams, but I'll grant that the movie may influence my memory of the Nazgûl screams. Maybe I should go for another re-read.

But the image that I had of the scene involved no seething rage that leads to destruction, but rather acts of petty violence for not finding what they wanted. Petty violence struck me as more up Ferny's alley.

[Coffeehouse]

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

but in the movie I saw the Nazgul trashing the room!

*runs and hides*

Hahahahahahahaha!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

but in the movie I saw the Nazgul trashing the room!

*runs and hides*

*Automatically prepares to throw a stone in Rian's direction, than thinks about it*
Perhaps it was the only thing the movie got right.

Originally Posted by Eärniel

But the image that I had of the scene involved no seething rage that leads to destruction, but rather acts of petty violence for not finding what they wanted. Petty violence struck me as more up Ferny's alley.

When a nazgul trashes a hotel room, it is evidence of seething rage, when a ruffian does the same it is nothing but petty violence.

By the way, the very next night the WK and seven nazgul threw down the Gate (guarded by their faithful servant Harry Goatleaf) and rode through Bree like a howling wind. Was it seething rage, or petty violence?

[Coffeehouse]

Originally Posted by Gordis

*Automatically prepares to throw a stone in Rian's direction, than thinks about it*
Perhaps it was the only thing the movie got right.


When a nazgul trashes a hotel room, it is evidence of seething rage, when a ruffian does the same it is nothing but petty violence.

By the way, the very next night the WK and seven nazgul threw down the Gate (guarded by their faithful servant Harry Goatleaf) and rode through Bree like a howling wind. Was it seething rage, or petty violence?

Seems more natural that it was the Nazgûl that trashed the room. Perhaps Tolkien has answered that point in any secondary literature?

[Earniel]

Originally Posted by Gordis

When a nazgul trashes a hotel room, it is evidence of seething rage, when a ruffian does the same it is nothing but petty violence.

Well, your vision included Nazgûl and seething rage. Mine included minions and petty violence. But I'm sure the Nazgûl can engage in petty violence when they wanted too. I wonder whether Khamûl ever put a little bleach in the Witch-King's laundry to ruin his smooth-and-menacing image? Or did Nazgûl #3 ever spray graffiti on Minas Ithil's shiny walls?

By the way, the very next night the WK and seven nazgul threw down the Gate (guarded by their faithful servant Harry Goatleaf) and rode through Bree like a howling wind. Was it seething rage, or petty violence?

Neither, I think. I'd go for a run-down patience and little grumpiness.

[Rían]

Originally Posted by Eärniel

Well, your vision included Nazgûl and seething rage. Mine included minions and petty violence. But I'm sure the Nazgûl can engage in petty violence when they wanted too. I wonder whether Khamûl ever put a little bleach in the Witch-King's laundry to ruin his smooth-and-menacing image? Or did Nazgûl #3 ever spray graffiti on Minas Ithil's shiny walls?

Where's that hysterically funny cartoon with the Nazgul practical jokes where they pinned some note on the back of one of the Nazgul?

[Jon S.]

My question is, who trashed inn rooms worse: The Nazgul ... or The Who?

Won't get fooled again

On August 23, 1967, while touring with fellow British Invasion band Herman's Hermits, The Who's Keith Moon observed his 21st birthday by raising a celebratory toast—and a dozen more—to the spirit of uncontainable destruction that marked both his drumming and his lifestyle. He hurled a five-tier cake into the crowd partying in his hotel room, promptly ruining the carpet and setting off a food fight. Someone even emptied all the fire extinguishers on his floor (in a post-trashing interview, Moon claimed the damages totaled $24,000). When a police officer showed up, Moon, stripped down to his underwear, jumped into a nearby Lincoln Continental, drove it through a fence, and abandoned it at the bottom of the Flint Holiday Inn's pool. In a final flourish, he slipped on a piece of marzipan and knocked out his front teeth. The officer escorted Moon to the dentist before throwing him in jail for a few hours. Forty years on, this incident remains the granddaddy of all rock and roll lodging smashups. The Who were subsequently banned from all Holiday Inns for life. Sadly for Moon, that would amount to only about 11 years.

[The Dread Pirate Roberts]

Somewhere in my past, it was explained to me why it was nearly certain that it was humans who trashed the hotel room, not the Nazgul. I don't recall the reasoning anymore but it was quite convincing. I'll have to go over to that other forum and do a search.

[Gordis]

Interesting...

Meanwhile have a look here: http://www.openscrolls.net/fanfic/story.php?no=1872

And worse, that morning Butterbur discovered that an attack by wraiths in service of the Dark Lord counted as an ‘Act of the Gods’, and therefore his insurance would not cover him.

[Coffeehouse]

Originally Posted by Gordis

Interesting...

Meanwhile have a look here: http://www.openscrolls.net/fanfic/story.php?no=1872

Lol Bree insurance policies sure are harsh.

[Rían]

I've looked all over and can't find the cartoon In fact, there's hardly any LOTR cartoons up compared to a few years ago. I think a bunch of them just got taken down as time went on

In the meantime, thanks for the tip, Gordy - I better check my insurance policy ...

[Jon S.]

How can these policies not distinguish between an act of Illuvatar and an act of Sauron?

[Coffeehouse]

Duh! They are subprime insurances. Offered through the dependable Tharbad Bridge Insurance Agency!

[Attalus]

Originally Posted by Gordis

I see the scene this way. The remaining two nazgul, Bill, the Southerner, and maybe also Harry, waited till everyone in the Inn went to bed. Then some of the ruffians (not the nazgul) went into the stables, quietly stole all the horses and ponies, with the exception of the one belonging to the Southerner.The animals were led to the West gate and Harry the Gatekeeper opened it to let them out.
The others, meanwhile, came around to the north side of the Inn to the hobbit-rooms windows. The ringwraiths were eager and hopeful, while the ruffians were very much afraid of their undead accomplices, only the promise of a reward was driving them on. Likely it were Ferny and the Southerner who forced open the window, quietly and professionally as thieves or spies, and slipped inside in silence. The nazgul waited right outside.

Then Ferny and the Southerner got out of the window and whispered fearfully: "There is no one inside, they are gone."

What? The nazgul, forgetting their wraithy dignity, climbed, cursing, inside through the hobbit-sized windows - with their swords, long cloaks and heavy riding boots - to check for themselves. That was when the nazgul got in a fit, all their hopes shattered...That was when the beds were tossed about, and the bolsters slashed and hacked with the swords and flung upon the floor and the brown mat representing Frodo's head was torn to pieces.

I highly suspect that the Southerner and Ferny used this time to run away - who would want to wait and see if the nazgul would vent their anger on something other than furniture?

I would be more inclined to believe this charming version except for the fact, I must insist upon, that the Nazgul could not see without their horses. They would be much more likely to think that Bill and the Southron had bungled it and sneaked away to try again later. I think Bill and the Southron tore up the bolsters and mat in frustration at having to bring bad news to their very, very scarey masters.