Tolkien Errors and Anachronisms

[Wally]

Yes, you are correct about all that. I had noticed Orcs calling 'hola' to each other, and rabbits being called 'coneys', whereas Spanish for rabbit is conejo, or 'coney' for short. This is the kind of thing that I would have expected from JK Rowling, not JRR Tolkien. Maybe he just put stuff like that in there to see if anyone would notice.

Hmmm - I missed the pop gun reference, but that is another excellent example of what we were talking about here. Good job.

The other points I am not going to argue about or defend, but it is pretty clear, for example, that Gandalf said that nearly all mithril mined by the dwarves had come into Sauron's possession, leaving very little to none to repair the gates of Minas Tirith. There is no wiggle-room here except for the possibility that someone might have picked through the ruins of Barad-dur to find it. Considering that Aragorn had said that men would not be able to enter Minas Morgul for many years, due to its evil state, it is hard to imagine that anyone would be allowed to pick through the ruins of the Dark Tower, Sauron's own abode. It is possible, of course, but Tolkien gives no hint of such. I believe it to be just another oversight.

I am aware of the controversy surrounding Bombadil and have read numerous of the essays that detail who or what he might be. But Tolkien gave us the answer - he is an enigma - and not Aule the Smith or Illuvatar himself. But he is obviously living and so either he or Gandalf must be wrong, and I think the odds are that it is Gandalf. I look upon this as more of an inconsistency than an error, and maybe there is some deeper explanation, if Gandalf knew more than I am crediting him for.

The same area where I read the Bombadil essays addresses the situation of why the Eagles did not carry Frodo and the Ring to Mount Doom. There it was concluded that Sauron was aware of the possibility and thus had arranged for Fell-Beasts to patrol the skies of Mordor ceaselessly. Myself, I always wondered just why he did not garrison a patrol of Orcs at the Chambers of Fire tp prevent any possibility of a clandestine approach.

Comments and discussion welcomed, but I see that there is already a clamor beginning to close the thread. Sorry if anyone's feelings have been hurt, but Tolkien's work, good as it is, is obviously not perfect.

[Jon S.]

Originally Posted by Gwaimir Windgem

Also, re: the eagles, I don't buy a couple of the guys arguments:

"At least one writer on r.a.b.t. suggested that Sauron might himself be able to fly. The only place in Tolkien's writings where we see Sauron fly is way back in the First Age, when he changes himself into a bat to fly away from Lúthien (Silmarillion, 212). Whether Sauron could still change into other forms at the end of the Third Age is a subtle question. We know that his powers are greatly reduced over what they previously were, and we also know that he has lost at least some of his shape-shifting ability; i.e. he cannot put on a fair form any longer. My view would be that there is nothing to support the suggestion that Sauron is able to change into a flying form in the late Third Age. If he could, we would expect him to have done so when Frodo put on the Ring in Sammath-Naur. "

Rather, it seems to me that since we know that in the past, Sauron was able to change into a bat or vampiric form and fly, and since such a form I hardly think qualifies as "fair" (whatever Anne Rice may say!), it seems to me that the burden of proof would lie on those claiming that he had lost this power.

You're missing the main point, though. Someone could have suggested at the meeting at Elrond's that the Eagles fly Frodo and the ring into Mordor with the response being, "No, we cannot do that as Sauron changed into a vampiric bat before and might do so again to stop him."

As Sherlock Holmes put it, the biggest clue is the dog that didn't bark. There was no such discussion.

[Jon S.]

Originally Posted by Wally

the Bombadil essays addresses the situation of why the Eagles did not carry Frodo and the Ring to Mount Doom. There it was concluded that Sauron was aware of the possibility and thus had arranged for Fell-Beasts to patrol the skies of Mordor ceaselessly. Myself, I always wondered just why he did not garrison a patrol of Orcs at the Chambers of Fire tp prevent any possibility of a clandestine approach.

I've never heard of or read this, can you provide a reference, please?

On the latter point, on the one hand, what imbecile would leave his one significant point of vulnerability unguarded during wartime?! On the other hand, anything is possible.

On the former point, see my immediately prior response (considering the Eagles had just flew Gandalf from Orthanc to Rivendell, it strains credulation to explain the failure of anyone at Elrond's Council to even broach the possibility of flying the ring into Mordor as anything but either an oversight or a deliberate omission so as to make the remainder of the story possible).

[Rían]

Originally Posted by Jon S.

You're missing the main point, though. Someone could have suggested at the meeting at Elrond's that the Eagles fly Frodo and the ring into Mordor with the response being, "No, we cannot do that as Sauron changed into a vampiric bat before and might do so again to stop him."

As Sherlock Holmes put it, the biggest clue is the dog that didn't bark. There was no such discussion.

The discussion didn't take place at the council meeting, that's all. It took place earlier that morning around donuts and coffee, so there was no need to mention it at the meeting.

Originally Posted by Wally

Yes, you are correct about all that. I had noticed Orcs calling 'hola' to each other, and rabbits being called 'coneys', whereas Spanish for rabbit is conejo, or 'coney' for short. This is the kind of thing that I would have expected from JK Rowling, not JRR Tolkien. Maybe he just put stuff like that in there to see if anyone would notice.

But Spanish didn't just drop out of the sky, complete and without ancestry. Languages are interconnected, and "coney" is an English word, too - I imagine they both came from Latin.

[GrayMouser]

1) Glass-making is thousands of years old; the Romans commonly used glass beakers.

2) Coney: Etymology: Middle English conies, plural, from Anglo-French conis, plural of conil, from Latin cuniculus

I seem to recall somewhere that Tolkien disliked the word rabbit as being too obviously derived from French.

Of course the Shire in general is anachronous, being a piece of 19th C England dropped into a Dark Age Europe.

[Rían]

Wow - GrayMouser and Wayfarer dropping in! Yay! *waves*

[sisterandcousinandaunt]

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

The discussion didn't take place at the council meeting, that's all. It took place earlier that morning around donuts and coffee, so there was no need to mention it at the meeting.

Spoken like a woman who's been to a few meetings, lol.

[Wally]

Jon S.:

I believe it was an essay that I read via a link on the Encyclopedia of Arda, but since there are about 1000 of them in there, I cannot at the moment lay my hands on it. I'll keep looking.

But it was just an essay that addressed this issue, with someone's speculation as to what must have happened. No official Tolkien position, of course.

[Beorndog]

I always thought the Eagle plan wouldn't work because we know that:
A: Sauron can control the weather.
B: Sauron can put up some mighty impressive pyrotechnics. Witness the display at the outset of the Army of Minas Morgul and at his Downfall.

Hence, I thought with his seeing eye Sauron would be albe to spot the Eagle incursion and fire off his "Lightning Bolts" or what ever you want to call them at a speed where they would hit before even the Eagles saw them coming.
Since the Eagles played a large role in the Battle of Five Armies I doubt Sauron would have forgotten them.

[Finrod Felagund]

Originally Posted by Wally

If, as Gandalf said, nearly all mithril that the dwarves had mined in Moria had been given to Sauron by the Orcs, then where did all the mithril come from that was later used to repair the Gates of Minas Tirith?

With the Balrog gone, it is quite possible that Moria could have been successfully reinhabited in the years following the War of the Ring

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Originally Posted by Peter_20

There's this hobbit named Blanco, and I also recall Merry going "hey presto!".

Blanco and presto are clearly translations from some other language, which was to Westron as Spanish is to English. Remember, these are all translations.

Originally Posted by Wally

Yes, you are correct about all that. I had noticed Orcs calling 'hola' to each other, and rabbits being called 'coneys', whereas Spanish for rabbit is conejo, or 'coney' for short. This is the kind of thing that I would have expected from JK Rowling, not JRR Tolkien. Maybe he just put stuff like that in there to see if anyone would notice.

"Coney" is also an English word. It's not particularly Spanish.

You're missing the main point, though. Someone could have suggested at the meeting at Elrond's that the Eagles fly Frodo and the ring into Mordor with the response being, "No, we cannot do that as Sauron changed into a vampiric bat before and might do so again to stop him."

I don't believe many people knew about the Eagles as an ally. Or, there is always the very real possibility that they could not imagine it would be that simple.

[Jon S.]

I'm unconvinced by anything posted so far about the Eagles. I just reread Gandalf speech to the Council. He tells all about Gwaihir's rescue.

May I remind you folks ...

"It is way too risky for the eagles to carry the Ring into Mordor; Sauron would spot them immediately."

Some individuals assume that Sauron would immediately notice the eagles flying into his realm and would understand the nature of the threat. Under closer examination, it is not so obvious that Sauron would notice the eagles.

How would Sauron identify the threat? One possibility is that he would see the eagles approaching by means of the PalantÃ*r. However, I think it can be strongly argued that the PalantÃ*r would not show the eagles unless Sauron directed the PalantÃ*r to focus on the particular area where they are flying; the PalantÃ*r is not an alarm bell. Further, we know that the flight path charted above is not where his attention was mainly directed:

"...His eye watches that way [the Black Gate] all the time..." (II, 294)

"No, no indeed," said Gollum. "Hobbits must see, must try to understand. He does not expect attack that way [Cirith Ungol]. His eye is all around, but it attends more to some places than to others. He can't see everything at once, not yet. [...] He thinks that no one can come to the Moon-tower without fighting big battle at the bridges, or getting lots of boats which they cannot hide and He will know about." (II, 316)

The Ered Lithui are a chain of mountains 300-400 miles long (roughly the distance between Boston and Washington DC, or between London and Glasgow), and it is considered impossible to enter Mordor by climbing over them; even one as sneaky and as skilled at climbing as Gollum knows of no way into Mordor except thru Cirith Gorgor and Cirith Ungol. For this reason, it is unlikely that Sauron would devote much attention to watching the Ered Lithui or the uninhabited Brown Lands.

There appear to be certain kinds of things which attract Sauron's attention, such as Frodo's gaze when he is seated on Amon Hen and is wearing the Ring. Sauron also is immediately aware when Frodo puts on the Ring in Sammath Naur. As long as Frodo does not put on the Ring during the eagle flight, however, it is not obvious that Sauron's attention would be attracted.

We know that Frodo went on foot all the way thru Mordor from Cirith Ungol to Mt. Doom carrying the Ring without Sauron spotting him; so the mere fact that something is carrying the Ring doesn't mean that Sauron will immediately spot it. The only thing which makes an eagle more visible is the fact that it's flying. However, the eagle has the advantage that there's far less time for Sauron to spot it, while the Ring-carrying Frodo was on foot in Mordor for many days.

It's important to note that once the eagles fly into Mordor, the game is no longer one of stealth but speed. Even if Sauron does immediately notice the eagles, he will not necessarily be able to respond in time. We aren't told exactly how long it took the eagles to fly from the Black Gate to Mt. Doom, but my guess is that it could not have been over an hour, and the flight I propose above is slightly shorter.

After Frodo and Sam entered Mordor thru Cirith Gorgor, Sauron had fully ten days to contemplate the purpose of their mission into Mordor, and did not realize that their plan was to destroy the Ring until the last moment. Given that the Mouth of Sauron refers to the intruders as "spies", Sauron's most likely thought would be that the eagles are merely flying over his realm for reconnaisance purposes. Thus, even if Sauron notices the eagles, his response would not necessarily be an appropriate one to prevent the Ring from being destroyed (such as having the Nazgûl fly directly to Mt. Doom to intercept the eagles).

"Sauron would send the flying Nazgûl after the eagles."

It is likely that he would. However, there is a very good change that the Nazgûl would not reach the eagles in time to foil the threat.

First, the Nazgûl are almost certainly not always airborne; the flying mounts must rest sometimes. It would presumably take at least a few minutes to take the flying mounts out of their stables, harness them, and get the Nazgûl aloft. We are not told where the flying mounts are stabled (Barad-dûr would be a fair guess), but unless it is very close to Mt. Doom, the Nazgûl have little chance of catching up with the eagles unless they chanced to be aloft already.

Second, the Nazgûl would have to be able to fly faster than the eagles to be able to catch up with them. We are not specifically told whether the eagles are faster than the Nazgûl, but there is at least an oblique suggestion that they are:

"Then come, and let your brother go with us, and some other of your folk who is most swift! For we have need of speed greater than any wind, outmatching the wings of the Nazgûl." (III, 280; emphasis is mine.)

Finally, we know that the eagles are willing to attack the flying Nazgûl, because they do so at the last battle before the Black Gate. An entirely possible series of events would be for some of the eagles to attack the Nazgûl and hold them back long enough to allow the eagle carrying the Ringbearer to reach Mt. Doom.

http://www.ling.upenn.edu/~kurisuto/eagles.html

[Jon S.]

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

The discussion didn't take place at the council meeting, that's all. It took place earlier that morning around donuts and coffee, so there was no need to mention it at the meeting.

Now this explanation is plausible.

[The Gaffer]

Well, obviously, the answer to the Eagles conundrum is that it would make a crap story

But seriously, it would.

At the Council it is discussed whether to send the Ring over the Sea, but that it would be refused because it is a Middle Earth problem which must be dealt with in Middle Earth.

The Eagles don't have a forwarding address. They decide when they want to intervene.

Given those two, it is for the "free peoples" to sort out by themselves.

[Tessar]

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

The discussion didn't take place at the council meeting, that's all. It took place earlier that morning around donuts and coffee, so there was no need to mention it at the meeting.

Elrond: So, I was saying to her just the other day, "Okay, look sweetheart, I know he's a ranger, and he's hot, and everything, but lets be honest--why give up the undying lands for a man who wouldn't know shampoo if it bit him on his grungy ass?"

Gandalf: SO true.

Pippin: *popping in with a StarElf's carton* Okay, I have a latte, two blacks, one lembas smoothie (light on the whipped cream), and a Caramel Coney Cake. Who gets what?

Elrond: Latte.

Gandalf: Smoothie.

Glorfindel: I have one of the blacks.

Elrond: But back to the topic at hand--the eagles. I just don't know... they are -such- resource guzzlers! Couldn't we just send them in on something more environment friendly? Like a sparrow? *sips*

Gandalf: Don't be rediculous--can you imagine? The Dwarven media would be all over us for that one. I can read the headlines now--"FATE OF MIDDLE-EARTH PUT IN CLAWS OF DOOM" *sip*... *wheeze* *SPLUTTER!* WTF is this?!!?! I said a LEMBAS smoothie!

Pippin: It is a Lembas Smoothie!

Gandalf: FOOL of a Took! I know for a fact this is -not- organic!

[Jon S.]

Originally Posted by The Gaffer

The Eagles don't have a forwarding address. They decide when they want to intervene.

True on the latter but it reminds me of the old chestnut about the guy who prays, "Please, God, I've never asked you for anything. Just one time, let me win the lottery!" God replies, "Meet me half way, will you - buy a ticket." I.e., someone might have tried asking.

As for the former, I disagree. There are ways of contacting the Eagles. Gandalf and Galadrial likely could have. Radagast, I believe, certainly could have (of course, he'd have to be asked, too).

[The Gaffer]

Dunno about the second part. I can't think of anywhere in the whole kaboodle where Eagles were contacted by people, rather than the other way around.

[sisterandcousinandaunt]

Originally Posted by Tessar

Elrond: So, I was saying to her just the other day, "Okay, look sweetheart, I know he's a ranger, and he's hot, and everything, but lets be honest--why give up the undying lands for a man who wouldn't know shampoo if it bit him on his grungy ass?"

Gandalf: SO true.

Pippin: *popping in with a StarElf's carton* Okay, I have a latte, two blacks, one lembas smoothie (light on the whipped cream), and a Caramel Coney Cake. Who gets what?

Elrond: Latte.

Gandalf: Smoothie.

Glorfindel: I have one of the blacks.

Elrond: But back to the topic at hand--the eagles. I just don't know... they are -such- resource guzzlers! Couldn't we just send them in on something more environment friendly? Like a sparrow? *sips*

Gandalf: Don't be rediculous--can you imagine? The Dwarven media would be all over us for that one. I can read the headlines now--"FATE OF MIDDLE-EARTH PUT IN CLAWS OF DOOM" *sip*... *wheeze* *SPLUTTER!* WTF is this?!!?! I said a LEMBAS smoothie!

Pippin: It is a Lembas Smoothie!

Gandalf: FOOL of a Took! I know for a fact this is -not- organic!

My favorite post, EVER.

[sisterandcousinandaunt]

Originally Posted by The Gaffer

Dunno about the second part. I can't think of anywhere in the whole kaboodle where Eagles were contacted by people, rather than the other way around.

Radagast did it. That's how Gandalf escaped from Orthanc.

[Rían]

Great one, Tessar