Anti-Homeschool Germany

[trolls' bane]

For various reasons, I only have time to read the original document Merry produced. And by doing so I am appalled at how much this resembles an authoritarian (as someone put it) measure.

However, I don't agree with homeschool either, for despite my contempt for the majority of the "people" who go to my school, I see no advantage of being taught by people who do not have teaching credentials nor perhaps a neutral opinion.

As you know Merry, I consider myself Christian, but at the same time I hold certain secular beliefs (Big Bang theory, though that was recently adopted as "okay" by the Roman Catholic Church, Evolution, etc.) as true. I do not think that someone should be taught with bias. I think there should be a more equal weight of either side. Christianity is faith, science is science, and should kept separate, but taught in equal amounts of both so an individual can draw their own conclusions. I don't particularly agree with the practice because even the most unbiased people are still biased.

On the other hand, seeing the horrors that I have to deal with in a public school, I can't help but to agree with the reasons for which many homeschool their children. As most who know me in person notice right off, I'm aloof, unmoved, and unnafected by anything even horrifyingly insulting to other people. I'm a philosophical tank. But others, as it is made quite obvious by someone I know who cries if she gets a 99% on a test or someone calls her something as a mild, friendly joke. (And, ironically, calls people all sorts of things in return.)

I will read both posted since the original post in due time. I'll probably download them to my palm pilot.

[Meriadoc Brandybuck]

Thank you Telcontarion for that article about homeschoolers. It made me feel very smart.

Originally Posted by The last sane person

Too much of a slant on this article for me to tell. What site did you get it from?

HSLDA: Home School Legal Defense Association.

Also, it's more than just this particular family.

Germans who choose to homeschool their children are coming under increasing pressure from the state with some families escaping the European Union nation to keep from having their children taken from them.

Basically, the government is taking the children away from their parents just because they're homeschooled. And just to please you all, it's from a different website. Here If you don't like it, find your own website to post.

Originally Posted by BB

but, frankly - what was posted here, on a tolkien board - THAT i take with utter disgust and quite frankly rather some hostility.

it is the exact equivalent from the honest mirror of what the radicalised christians are as to the fundamentalist Muslims.

Sorry if I offended you. I did actually make an effort to find another article from a different point of view (i.e. Bop's thing) after I first posted but I didn't find any. And yes, I admit I didn't strain myself to find one.
As for radicalized Christians: Uh... no. On that you are wrong. It gets waaay more radical out in the world. Besides, it's a petition. How often are petitions unbiased? Never.

Originally Posted by TB

As you know Merry, I consider myself Christian, but at the same time I hold certain secular beliefs (Big Bang theory, though that was recently adopted as "okay" by the Roman Catholic Church, Evolution, etc.) as true. I do not think that someone should be taught with bias. I think there should be a more equal weight of either side. Christianity is faith, science is science, and should kept separate, but taught in equal amounts of both so an individual can draw their own conclusions. I don't particularly agree with the practice because even the most unbiased people are still biased.

Yes, I agree. I, for example, have been taught Evolution AND Creation, Protestant, Catholic, and atheist views on various subjects in one way or another, etc.

Yesh. 20 posts in two days.

[The Telcontarion]

Originally Posted by trolls' bane

I do not think that someone should be taught with bias.

We are all taught with bias. It's just a matter of what accepted academia wants you to learn and what you learn else where.

Certainly it is not an arrestable offense. Frankly this should not even be a debate. There is no way anyone can say that a parent should be arrested because they choose to have there children learn from home. That is madness.

[trolls' bane]

Originally Posted by The Telcontarion

We are all taught with bias. It's just a matter of what accepted academia wants you to learn and what you learn else where.

Certainly it is not an arrestable offense. Frankly this should not even be a debate. There is no way anyone can say that a parent should be arrested because they choose to have there children learn from home. That is madness.

We are taught with bias, but we shouldn't be.

[brownjenkins]

Originally Posted by sisterandcousinandaunt

One of the arguments put forward by homeschool advocates is that removing kids from school actually has the potential to be more broadening with real world experience than the artificial social construct of schools.

Any situation where your parents are always looking over your shoulder is never going to be as broadening as one where they are not. Having to deal with peer-only situations and authority figures that are not the one's you have spent your entire life with is essential, because this will eventually be the norm. Best to get use to it early in life.

And, most importantly, you will have to go through some bad situations, from bullies to less-than-ideal instructors, that will prepare you dramatically for the real world. People rarely have trouble dealing with success. It is dealing with failure that presents the real challenge.

One of the biggest things you have to learn in the first eighteen years of your life is how to survive without your parents. Better to start at the age of five than at the age of eighteen.

[brownjenkins]

Originally Posted by Gwaimir Windgem

Private schools are often very nearly as free of parental involvement as public schools.

True, and on that account I would place them above homeschooling. But they often have the disadvantage of placing a child in an unrealistic segment of society (i.e. all of the same economic and/or religious background), not letting that child experience the whole of human experience until much later in life. Public school is the great equalizer, or at least can be.

[brownjenkins]

Originally Posted by sisterandcousinandaunt

The essential issue with compulsory schooling, to me, is that it's compulsory. We've determined that the state has a right to incarcerate people, due to their birth year. Why people who are otherwise all about human rights consider that normal is a mystery to me.

Children are denied all kinds of rights, from drinking to driving to marrying to fornication to the ability to leave their parents. Why? Because most societies believe there is a certain age before a child can make certain decisions about their own lives. One can argue the correct age, but I don't think anyone would argue that there is at least some age before a child can be considered truely responsible enough to make those choices.

And, as far as school goes, it's for their own good.

Are you saying we should let kids have the choice to not be educated at all?

[sisterandcousinandaunt]

your assumptions on this topic are not informed. I'm surprised at you.

The way you're phrasing this, "parents always looking over your shoulder" isn't reflective of homeschooling, as it's practiced in the US today. Most modern homeschoolers aren't setting up desks in the spare room, in Little House on the Prairie garb. A lot are just the "general contractors" on their kids' education, hiring professional teachers, or forming co-ops, and a lot also teach using real world example. Are you aware, for example, that private schools (especially prestige prep schools and boarding schools) don't hire "certified" teachers? They hire able teachers. That's a different issue, entirely.

The literacy rate in this country was higher before compulsory education was initiated. That's because people understood that education was GOOD FOR THEM. They wanted it. It helped them get more of what they wanted. And I believe people are naturally curious, certainly small children are. Why would you suppose that their curiosity and drive to learn would naturally terminate at age 5? Yet that's the age at which they must get on a big yellow bus or they will choose not to be educated at all? What's the basis for that conclusion?

[rohirrim TR]

Originally Posted by trolls' bane

We are taught with bias, but we shouldn't be.

It doesn't matter if we are taught with bias, its up to us to think critically and do our own research and conclusion, even if were taught in a biased manner that has no bearing whether or no we as individuals need be biased. Of course education is biased, whether it stays biased is purely up to the individual.

Sorry I think that might be off topic.

[Meriadoc Brandybuck]

Maybe this should be merged with the Homeschool thread?

Originally Posted by brownjenkins

Any situation where your parents are always looking over your shoulder is never going to be as broadening as one where they are not. Having to deal with peer-only situations and authority figures that are not the one's you have spent your entire life with is essential, because this will eventually be the norm. Best to get use to it early in life.

And, most importantly, you will have to go through some bad situations, from bullies to less-than-ideal instructors, that will prepare you dramatically for the real world. People rarely have trouble dealing with success. It is dealing with failure that presents the real challenge.

One of the biggest things you have to learn in the first eighteen years of your life is how to survive without your parents. Better to start at the age of five than at the age of eighteen.

Ask someone with experience before claiming that homeschooling requires your parent looking over your shoulder 24/7. I went to two private schools before being homeschooled. What I learned from "less-than-ideal" teachers was that I despised them.
Being homeschooled has allowed me to have my first job as an apprentice to my music teacher because my schedule is so much more flexible. And I also don't have 4 hours of icky homework.

[sisterandcousinandaunt]

although the merits of homeschooling seems to be the topic.

What kind of music, Merry?

[Meriadoc Brandybuck]

Originally Posted by sisterandcousinandaunt

although the merits of homeschooling seems to be the topic.

What kind of music, Merry?

The topic was originally was the situation in Germany. It's changed, so I'm just suggesting it could be moved there instead.

Piano, recorder, and music appreciation (composer stories).

[sisterandcousinandaunt]

I was probably OT. I so often am.

Nice, about the music. I'm piano impaired. Sometime soon...

[elven dragonrider]

I went to a private school for 9 years and am currently homeschooling. From my experiences, I have seen that many of the Christian (I am a Christian, but not overly so by any means) homeschoolers are not properly educating their children, and I know several of them that did not know how to read until the ninth grade and didn't know how to write till halfway through that year. Others are still in second grade English and first grade math when tehy are supposed to be juniors in college. So I see the reasoning behind the law. I think that both sides went to an extreme. The Germans should not have stormed the house with 15 officers and taken her to a physciatrist S/P? camp or wherever, but the parents of Melissa should have been more reasonable under the circumstances, and instead of disregarding the law, should have sought advice from the authorities on their situation. Maybe that was not the easiest choice, but it was the right one.

[elven dragonrider]

I was at a private Academy, and it was not a religious school. Don'y assume private schools are perfect. There are reasons why I left that I do not care to describe here, but the just was the edu. went downhill because they changed headmasters and the workload was insane. I had to stay up until 2 every morning, along with all my friends, to make straight A's. The people I know from other places never wven take their text-books home.
The Germany-thing though- I really think that both sides over did it.

[Earniel]

I've managed to read through some of (what seems to be) an official court report of this girl's case. And as far as I can tell (German's not my favourite language, German legalese is even worse) Melissa was at one point sent abroad (and be homeschooled with friends or family in Australia) and her parents were less than forthcoming with the information about her whereabouts and the manner of schooling she was receiving. I take it the state -who seems to be required to check on students once they drop out of public schools before 16 years- and who wanted to speak to Melissa herself, was less than pleased with that. Her parents apparently also didn't inform the state when she finally did return.

(My reading got a bit blurred here. It looks like the state found out she was back in the country only through a recent photo in a local newspaper on which Melissa was shown with her family. The report seemed to suggest they suspected the parents of having lied about Melissa's whereabouts.)

Having read that, I understand a bit more of why the state removed Melissa from her family. They may have thought it too likely that her parents would have sent Melissa back abroad where no state or social worker would be able to check on her.

[brownjenkins]

Originally Posted by sisterandcousinandaunt

your assumptions on this topic are not informed. I'm surprised at you.

They are informed, they're just not what you want to hear.

Originally Posted by sisterandcousinandaunt

The way you're phrasing this, "parents always looking over your shoulder" isn't reflective of homeschooling, as it's practiced in the US today. Most modern homeschoolers aren't setting up desks in the spare room, in Little House on the Prairie garb.

How do you know how "most" people choose to homeschool their kids?

Originally Posted by sisterandcousinandaunt

The literacy rate in this country was higher before compulsory education was initiated.

I'd like to see some evidence behind that statement.

Originally Posted by sisterandcousinandaunt

Yet that's the age at which they must get on a big yellow bus or they will choose not to be educated at all? What's the basis for that conclusion?

What's so bad about requiring a child to do something that they want to do anyway?

[Farimir Captain of Gondor]

Originally Posted by sisterandcousinandaunt

I don't know about Germany in general, but I do know that a lot of American service people there homeschool for reasons other than religious fundamentalism.

Not really sure what you ment here but I was an Army brat who went to school in Germany and there's no difference in the schools there then there are here. The school wasn't a German run school. It was actually on base and the German govnt had no say as to what went on there. Like I said, I wasn't sure what you ment, just wanted to let you know there's not much difference.

[sisterandcousinandaunt]

Originally Posted by brownjenkins

I'd like to see some evidence behind that statement.

http://www.mises.org/story/1425

[elven dragonrider]

Originally Posted by brownjenkins

I'd like to see some evidence behind that statement.

Exactly what i thought, sisterandcousinandaunt. Please reply, I am curious to see your defense. **raised eyebrow**