the twenty rings of power

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by jammi567

very true. afterall, it required much Power on Saurons part to control the 19, so yeh, none of them could be more powerful then the One.

No, you are misunderstanding me.

I mean, if the One destroyed meant the total loss of the power of the 19, then the powers of the rings were directly connected. It should have been true the other way round as well.
Of course, the One was more powerful than all the 19 combined, so SOME power should have remained in it: but was that remnant enough to sustain Sauron's life?

[Landroval]

It should have been true the other way round as well.

Why?

Of course, the One was more powerful than all the 19 combined, so SOME power should have remained in it:

It was Sauron's power that was transferred; if all the rings perish, that power still exists in it.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Landroval

Why?

That is the way with things connected with each other. And there WAS a strong connection, otherwise why the powers of the 19 waned when the one was destroyed?

Originally Posted by Landroval

It was Sauron's power that was transferred; if all the rings perish, that power still exists in it.

And it was Mirdain's power and some of Sauron's power in the Rings as well. The power of the rings combined was great. Sauron had to put a lot of his power in the One to match that.

[Gordis]

So here are my comments on your essay, Jammi.

Originally Posted by Jammi

All Rings = One power I believe that all the Rings had was being able to work on the desires/greed of the race/person in question

The Rings were first meant for the Elves - both by Sauron and Celebrimbor. So their MAIN power was preservation. They also had other powers needed BY THE ELVES.

The Elves were not adverse to accumulating treasures, not only the Dwarves had such a flaw, hence they made the Seven.
Not all Hollin Elves were Calaquendi, (though Celebrimbor himself was), not all "lived in both Worlds and had great powers in the Seen and the Unseen" - hence they made the Nine - to give the Moriquendi elves the same powers as Calaquendi had.

Originally Posted by Jammi

7 + 9 Rings = They made a person invisible, put them both in the spiritual world when worn, and corrupted because they were made under the guidance of Sauron.

I am not sure that the Seven made anyone invisible or transferred anyone into the Spirit world. We don't know it: nobody wore them but the Dwarves, and before them some unnamed Elves. The Dwarves were neither made invisible, nor faded into wraiths. Even their lives were not prolonged. I think they had no such powers.

Originally Posted by Jammi

Could an elf become a slave to Sauron if he wore one of the seven or nine? I believe the answer to be yes, because in their own way, elves are as weak as men, and the ring would work on that elf’s desire, and eventually, hello elf nazgul.

I think an elf would become a slave to Sauron (the wielder of the One), yes. Even the wielders of the Three would have become slaves to Sauron, had they worn their Rings in the Second Age.

BUT, IMO, an elf wearing one of the Nine wouldn't become a wraith, so not a nazgul. Nazgul faded because their lives were unnaturally prolonged, while neither their bodies, nor their fëar were made to endure so long. Probably with the Elves, the 9 Rings would rather prevent natural fading, just as the Three did. After all, ALL the rings were made by Elves and FOR the elves, so the probability of undesirable side-effects was low.

Originally Posted by Jammi

The One Ring = Its powers are that it controls the other Rings of Power, it seems to understand the Orc language (unless they were speaking the common speech in the first place, of course). It can sense its surroundings, and even influence them to suite its own needs, e.g. Gollum in cave in Hobbit, Frodo in Prancing Pony, and Sam in Cirith Ungol, and finally, it corrupts, controls, and abandons the person that has it. (The last one only happens if that person isn’t heading towards Sauron).

Those are only some of its powers. There is a quote somewhere that the One contains all the powers of the other Rings, so it can "kindle hearts" as Narya, preserve whole kingdoms as Nenya, make rivers flood as Vilya, transfer a physical body into the Spirit world like the Nine, help to accumulate treasures like the Seven and so on. It only has to be wielded properly.

Originally Posted by Curubethion

Also, did the nine rings actually make men invisible? I was rather under the impression that it was Sauron's influence that turned the men into wraiths after they died.

Yes the Nine did make mortals invisible, as they transfered them into the Spirit World. And the nazgul NEVER died, that is why they are called the "undead"

Originally Posted by Jammi

what i'm saying is that the seven and the nine are like generic copies of each other, so if you gave a man a Ring that was given to a dwarf, that person would still be invisible

I disagree.
I think the Seven and the Nine are very different, though we know very little about them. The only thing they had in common was that they were corrupted. Every Ring had its own name and its own stone - it seems like their powers may have differed even between the rings of the same set .

What we do know, is that the rings were called "Seven" and "Nine" even before Sauron distributed them - see the passage in UT "Galadriel and Celeborn".

By SA 1695, when Sauron attacked Hollin, the Seven were already distributed by Celebrimbor himself - likely to Eregion Elves. One of the Seven, it is said, Celebrimbor himself gave to Durin, Lord of Moria. The Nine, in contrast, were all kept intact in the House of the Mirdain - so the Nazgul were the first to have them.

I suppose, that the Nine were probably meant for the children of the Mirdain, born in Middle Earth. They wouldn't be Calaquendi, like their fathers, so they needed these Rings (keys to the Spirit World) to compensate for that, to have access into the Spirit World.

[Farimir Captain of Gondor]

I posted this in the 'what if' thread but it seems to fit here. If Sauron captured a powerful man, say Boromir or Aragorn, and decided he wanted to make them his new Nazgul.....could he take one of the Nine and give it to them subsequently turning them into a wraith? Or, are the Nine tied to the original owners forever?

[Landroval]

That is the way with things connected with each other. And there WAS a strong connection, otherwise why the powers of the 19 waned when the one was destroyed?

We know that the neutralisation of the one ring implies the neutralisation of the other power rings. But to think reversely, as you suggest - without proper evidence, is called a logical fallacy - "affirming the consequent".

And it was Mirdain's power and some of Sauron's power in the Rings as well.

No he didn't

Originally Posted by Of the rings of power and the third age, Silmarillion

But Sauron guided their labours, and he was aware of all that they did; for his desire was to set a bond upon the Elves and to bring them under his vigilance.
...
and he came against them with open war, demanding that all the rings should be delivered to him, since the Elven-smiths could not have attained to their making without his lore and counsel.

The Rings were first meant for the Elves - both by Sauron and Celebrimbor. So their MAIN power was preservation.

Silmarillion implies that only the Three had that power, that is why Sauron wanted them most of all

Originally Posted by Of the rings of power and the third age, Silmarillion

and of all the Elven-rings Sauron most desired to possess them, for those who had them in their keeping could ward off the decays of time and postpone the weariness of the world.

though letter #131 implies that "the chief power (of all the rings alike) was the prevention or slowing of decay"

What we do know, is that the rings were called "Seven" and "Nine" even before Sauron distributed them - see the passage in UT "Galadriel and Celeborn".

Which is contradicted by Silmarillion

Originally Posted by Of the rings of power and the third age, Silmarillion

and he dealt them out to the other peoples of Middle-earth, hoping thus to bring under his sway all those that desired secret power beyond the measure of their kind. Seven Rings he gave to the Dwarves; but to Men he gave nine, for Men proved in this matter as in others the readiest to his will

What this quote tells us is that Sauron gave the rings around depending on how the races were willing to subject to his will - not depending on specific power of those rings.

Or, are the Nine tied to the original owners forever?

The three and some of the seven exchanged hands several times; even the one could, theoretically, be mastered by someone other than Sauron. So I don't think there is an exclusive possesion. Interestingly enough, in Of Gollum and the rings, HoME VI, it was stated that:

In the very ancient days the Ring-lord made many of these Rings: and sent them out through the world to snare people. He sent them to all sorts of folk - the Elves had many, and there are now many elfwraiths in the world, but the Ring-lord cannot rule them

[jammi567]

Originally Posted by Gordis

I disagree.
I think the Seven and the Nine are very different, though we know very little about them. The only thing they had in common was that they were corrupted. Every Ring had its own name and its own stone - it seems like their powers may have differed even between the rings of the same set .

Examples please.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by jammi567

Examples please.

Examples of what?

[jammi567]

Originally Posted by Gordis

Examples of what?

of why they're different, even though Sauron handed them out randomly.

[jammi567]

Originally Posted by Farimir Captain of Gondor

I posted this in the 'what if' thread but it seems to fit here. If Sauron captured a powerful man, say Boromir or Aragorn, and decided he wanted to make them his new Nazgul.....could he take one of the Nine and give it to them subsequently turning them into a wraith? Or, are the Nine tied to the original owners forever?

I think that even if they did do that, they would want to want it, almost being like drugs. with boromir, this almost came true, from the minute he saw the Ring. with aragon however, they wouldn't adffect him. so if you can't want lust for the One Ring, then i don't think that you would be affected by one of the Nine.

[jammi567]

Originally Posted by Gordis

Originally Posted by The Telcontarion
Ah, but remember Cel did give them freely away, to Gil, Cirdin and alatiriel. I do not think he would have hesitated to destroy them if he deemed it neccessary, he certainly was not another Isildur.

No, Celebrimbor was worse than Isildur and by far.

Isildur was a person that the Elves later loved to blame, readily forgetting their own involvement in the Ring-Project.

But Isildur was a mere Man, having little understanding of the Rings scheme and their powers. He was temporarily blinded by the power of the One, by his own pride and by grief for his father and brother. By the way, I say "temporarily" not at random, as in two years, just before his death, Isildur seriously considered giving the Ring back to the keepers of the Three. He said to his son:

Quote:
"Alas, it is not, senya. I cannot use it. I dread the pain of touching it. And I have not yet found the strength to bend it to my will. It needs one greater than I now know myself to be. My pride has fallen. It should go to the Keepers of the Three."

Now look at Cel. Togethar with his buddy Annatar Celebrimbor invented all the Ring project - clearly going against the designs of Eru.

After he discovered the existence of the One and the true identity of his dearest friend Annatar, he had ALL the rings but the One in his possession for 100 years (1600-1697). He could end all the project at once by destroying the 19 rings - saving the Second and the Third Age from a lot of calamities. But he didn't do it.

Quote:
UT Galadriel and Celeborn: Sauron himself departed from Eregion about the year 1500, after the MÃ*rdain had begun the making of the Rings of Power. Now Celebrimbor was not corrupted in heart or faith, but had accepted Sauron as what he posed to be; and when at length he discovered the existence of the One Ring he revolted against Sauron, and went to Lórinand to take counsel once more with Galadriel. They should have destroyed all the Rings of Power at this time, "but they failed to find the strength." Galadriel counselled him that the Three Rings of the Elves should be hidden, never used, and dispersed, far from Eregion where Sauron believed them to be.

At least he could have hidden ALL the rings as well as he hid the Three. He failed to do even that. The Seven and the Nine remained in Eregion, the latter lying all together in the House of Mirdain - ready for the taking. And he told Sauron to whom the Seven were bestowed.

Quote:
At last the attackers broke into Eregion with ruin and devastation, and captured the chief object of Sauron's assault, the House of the MÃ*rdain, where were their smithies and their treasures. Celebrimbor, desperate, himself withstood Sauron on the steps of the great door of the MÃ*rdain; but he was grappled and taken captive, and the House was ransacked. There Sauron took the Nine Rings and other lesser works of the MÃ*rdain; but the Seven and the Three he could not find. Then Celebrimbor was put to torment, and Sauron learned from him where the Seven were bestowed. This Celebrimbor revealed, because neither the Seven nor the Nine did he value as he valued the Three; the Seven and the Nine were made with Sauron's aid, whereas the Three were made by Celebrimbor alone, with a different power and purpose.UT.

You see, he didn't value the Seven or the Nine enough to keep them from Sauron, but still he was so besotted with his rings that he failed to destroy any. With that he put Men and Dwarves in peril, but that bothered the High Elf little. Ugh...

i hope you don't mind me using your post, because i think it should go in this thread, because it's about the Rings.

[jammi567]

Originally Posted by The Telcontarion

I do not think he was merely "besotted" with the three as he was more reluctant to give them to Sauron who would use them to evil purposes with devastating effect; the three were indeed the rings of power, as was illustrated by Elrond at the ford. The others where of far lesser make, and while they controlled the bearer, they had no power over those without.

Yet, even under torture he did not reveal the location of the three to Sauron, that in itself shows character beyond measure. Alone upon the steps did he contest with his enemy, until overmastered was he.

"They" could not find the strength, not Celebrimbor only. Alatiriel bade him to hide them, not to destroy them. Think about it for a moment, given her history, would she see these things destroyed that could give her such personal power. Was it not to rule a realm of her own, free of the valar was the why behind her leaving valinor; I say she would not and did not take the one to achieve this end, for she was more than elvin was, but for her weakness, she would have coveted the three for what they represented to her and the fulfilment of all her labours.

While your points about Isildur bear some merit, still none can deny he had the greatest chance to destroy the the one, yet faltered at the most critical point. Even Galadriel refused the one, and Mithrindir, do you believe Celebrimbor would have made the same mistake, he who first rejected the one in the beggining, nay good sir/madame, nay. I will also point out that, it was more of strategic reasoning than anything else for wanting to destroy the the three, as keeping them means the risk of their capture.

See above for reason why i'm putting this post here.

[jammi567]

Something i've just thought of is: Why did both Elrond and Gil-galad refuse Sauron entry into their relms, when they were young, and had never experianced Valinor?

[Jon S.]

Sauron was able to control even the 3, which he did not make or touch, because he transferred so much of his power to the 1 to make it so controlling. This has always seemed to me to be quite the gamble even from the perspective of the point in time of the origin of the 1 ("don't put all your eggs in one basket") and one that, of course, Saruron eventually ost.

[Landroval]

Elrond is called the greatest of loremasters; I have no doubt that Gil-galad was rather similar to him in that aspect. They "repulsed" the blasphemy of Sauron's proposal, to recreate paradise, which was a "veiled attack on the gods", as stated by Tolkien in letter #131.

[Alcuin]

Originally Posted by jammi567

Something i've just thought of is: Why did both Elrond and Gil-galad refuse Sauron entry into their relms, when they were young, and had never experianced Valinor?

In addition to what Landroval has just posted, Galadriel was in Lindon and Eregion during the period when Sauron in the guise of Annatar seduced the Noldorin smiths of Eregion. She knew Aulë herself and many of his Maiar. She told the Elves that no Annatar had been among the folk of Aulë in Valinor, and was suspicious of this unknown Maia.

[jammi567]

Ok, but looking in the Tale of Years, it says that Gil-galad refused to treat with Sauron 300 years before the elves of Eregion began making the Rings of Power. And i wouldn't think that Sauron would tell them what he was planning for them to make until the felt confident in their abilities. But yeah, Galadriel telling Elrond and Gil-galad sounds good. But then, why didn't the elves of Eregion believe her? Where they really that stupid not to trust her?

[Gordis]

Why would they believe this scheming lady?
I am not sure she was too popular among the Noldor in the First and Second Ages. As far as I remember, Thingol refused admittance to Doriath to any who took part in the Rebellion and the resulting Kinslaying. Galadriel, who had taken an active part in the Rebellion, by lies and half truths made her way to Thingol's household, married a kinsman of Thingol and became close to Melian, distancing herself from her not so "diplomatic" kin.

Moreover, Galadriel really had nothing definite against Sauron. Many Maiar left Valinor for ME before she was ever born. I think she merely had a "bad feeling" about Annatar, much as she had before about Feanor. She refused Feanor advances long before he did anything bad.

Elrond and Gil-Galad trusted her, because they were born long after this Doriath incident. But Celebrimbor and Calaquendi Noldor, who took part in the rebellion themselves, didn't.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Landroval

Elrond is called the greatest of loremasters; I have no doubt that Gil-galad was rather similar to him in that aspect. They "repulsed" the blasphemy of Sauron's proposal, to recreate paradise, which was a "veiled attack on the gods", as stated by Tolkien in letter #131.

Yes but who DID recreate this paradise in Middle Earth, using the very Rings they thought so blasphemous?
Galadriel in Lorien and Elrond in Rivendell.

[jammi567]

Originally Posted by Gordis

Why would they believe this scheming lady?
I am not sure she was too popular among the Noldor in the First and Second Ages. As far as I remember, Thingol refused admittance to Doriath to any who took part in the Rebellion and the resulting Kinslaying. Galadriel, who had taken an active part in the Rebellion, by lies and half truths made her way to Thingol's household, married a kinsman of Thingol and became close to Melian, distancing herself from her not so "diplomatic" kin.

But doesn'tit say in unfinished tales somewhere that she was fighting with the teleri. at the first kinslying.

And that's a very good point. The things you learn.