Celebrimbor or Gil-galad as high king!!!!!

[Landroval]

It maybe that our friend landroval was wrong for I could not find wear in the voyage of Earindil, was the curse said to have been laid to rest.

No worries

Originally Posted by Of the voyage of Earendil and the war of wrath, Silmarillion

And when they came into the West the Elves of Beleriand dwelt upon Tol Eressea, the Lonely Isle, that looks both west and east; whence they might come even to Valinor. They were admitted again to the love of Manwe and the pardon of the Valar; and the Teleri forgave their ancient grief, and the curse was laid to rest.

[The Telcontarion]

Originally Posted by Landroval

No worries

Quote:
Originally Posted by Of the voyage of Earendil and the war of wrath, Silmarillion
And when they came into the West the Elves of Beleriand dwelt upon Tol Eressea, the Lonely Isle, that looks both west and east; whence they might come even to Valinor. They were admitted again to the love of Manwe and the pardon of the Valar; and the Teleri forgave their ancient grief, and the curse was laid to rest.

Thank you Landroval, long live the house of Feanor.

What did you think of Anwacurufinwe, called Anwa by his father. Elrond was the first to call him feanor.

[The Telcontarion]

Originally Posted by The Telcontarion

Your thoughts.

One on one who do you think would win, Cel or Gil. Slite off topic so don't run to much away from the main thread.

I personally think Cel would.

Slite off topic, but who's your pick?

[Butterbeer]

Originally Posted by jammi567

Gil-galad because he's more active, whilst Celebrimbor only made some rings for god sake.

... yeah cele-baby was a trouble maker ...ol' Gilly-la had some fire in his belly ... not so much of a nonce in my book ...

best all, BB

[The Telcontarion]

You think Gil would beat Cel's.

[jammi567]

basically, yeh.

[The Telcontarion]

I think Cel would chop Gil up into small little pieces, roast him and with his own spear eat him like a shish kabob. Uhmmm, yum.

Then he would be king uncontested; gangsta like.

[The Telcontarion]

but seriously though, could you imagine Gil-galad with aeglos fighting Celebrimbor with the rings of power. Not to mention whatever sword he made would be the greatest sword ever made and forget about the armor; I think Gil-galad would fare better against sauron.

[durinsbane2244]

i would choose Gil-galid, supposing that we are meant to pick which one would make a better king...too much readin' for me...

anyway, Celebrimbor couldn't bring himself to destroy his "precious" rings, whilst Gil-galid freely gave his to elrond...strong will and do-gooding...

[The Telcontarion]

Ah, but remember Cel did give them freely away, to Gil, Cirdin and alatiriel. I do not think he would have hesitated to destroy them if he deemed it neccessary, he certainly was not another Isildur.

I respect your choice as king, alot of mooters like Gil it woud seem. Dont' get me wrong, I thought he lived up well to the house of Finwe.

But he would still get chopped up and eaten like a shish kabaab.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by The Telcontarion

Ah, but remember Cel did give them freely away, to Gil, Cirdin and alatiriel. I do not think he would have hesitated to destroy them if he deemed it neccessary, he certainly was not another Isildur.

No, Celebrimbor was worse than Isildur and by far.

Isildur was a person that the Elves later loved to blame, readily forgetting their own involvement in the Ring-Project.

But Isildur was a mere Man, having little understanding of the Rings scheme and their powers. He was temporarily blinded by the power of the One, by his own pride and by grief for his father and brother. By the way, I say "temporarily" not at random, as in two years, just before his death, Isildur seriously considered giving the Ring back to the keepers of the Three. He said to his son:

"Alas, it is not, senya. I cannot use it. I dread the pain of touching it. And I have not yet found the strength to bend it to my will. It needs one greater than I now know myself to be. My pride has fallen. It should go to the Keepers of the Three."

Now look at Cel. Togethar with his buddy Annatar Celebrimbor invented all the Ring project - clearly going against the designs of Eru.

After he discovered the existence of the One and the true identity of his dearest friend Annatar, he had ALL the rings but the One in his possession for 100 years (1600-1697). He could end all the project at once by destroying the 19 rings - saving the Second and the Third Age from a lot of calamities. But he didn't do it.

UT Galadriel and Celeborn: Sauron himself departed from Eregion about the year 1500, after the MÃ*rdain had begun the making of the Rings of Power. Now Celebrimbor was not corrupted in heart or faith, but had accepted Sauron as what he posed to be; and when at length he discovered the existence of the One Ring he revolted against Sauron, and went to Lórinand to take counsel once more with Galadriel. They should have destroyed all the Rings of Power at this time, "but they failed to find the strength." Galadriel counselled him that the Three Rings of the Elves should be hidden, never used, and dispersed, far from Eregion where Sauron believed them to be.

At least he could have hidden ALL the rings as well as he hid the Three. He failed to do even that. The Seven and the Nine remained in Eregion, the latter lying all together in the House of Mirdain - ready for the taking. And he told Sauron to whom the Seven were bestowed.

At last the attackers broke into Eregion with ruin and devastation, and captured the chief object of Sauron's assault, the House of the MÃ*rdain, where were their smithies and their treasures. Celebrimbor, desperate, himself withstood Sauron on the steps of the great door of the MÃ*rdain; but he was grappled and taken captive, and the House was ransacked. There Sauron took the Nine Rings and other lesser works of the MÃ*rdain; but the Seven and the Three he could not find. Then Celebrimbor was put to torment, and Sauron learned from him where the Seven were bestowed. This Celebrimbor revealed, because neither the Seven nor the Nine did he value as he valued the Three; the Seven and the Nine were made with Sauron's aid, whereas the Three were made by Celebrimbor alone, with a different power and purpose.UT.

You see, he didn't value the Seven or the Nine enough to keep them from Sauron, but still he was so besotted with his rings that he failed to destroy any. With that he put Men and Dwarves in peril, but that bothered the High Elf little. Ugh...

[The Telcontarion]

I do not think he was merely "besotted" with the three as he was more reluctant to give them to Sauron who would use them to evil purposes with devastating effect; the three were indeed the rings of power, as was illustrated by Elrond at the ford. The others where of far lesser make, and while they controlled the bearer, they had no power over those without.

Yet, even under torture he did not reveal the location of the three to Sauron, that in itself shows character beyond measure. Alone upon the steps did he contest with his enemy, until overmastered was he.

They should have destroyed all the Rings of Power at this time, "but they failed to find the strength."

"They" could not find the strength, not Celebrimbor only. Alatiriel bade him to hide them, not to destroy them. Think about it for a moment, given her history, would she see these things destroyed that could give her such personal power. Was it not to rule a realm of her own, free of the valar was the why behind her leaving valinor; I say she would not and did not take the one to achieve this end, for she was more than elvin was, but for her weakness, she would have coveted the three for what they represented to her and the fulfilment of all her labours.

While your points about Isildur bear some merit, still none can deny he had the greatest chance to destroy the the one, yet faltered at the most critical point. Even Galadriel refused the one, and Mithrindir, do you believe Celebrimbor would have made the same mistake, he who first rejected the one in the beggining, nay good sir/madame, nay. I will also point out that, it was more of strategic reasoning than anything else for wanting to destroy the the three, as keeping them means the risk of their capture.

[Elemmírë]

Nobody would have accepted a member of the House of Fëanor as High King of the Noldor. And frankly, as much as I love that House, I don't blame them.

Would Celebrimbor have been better than Gil-Galad? I don't think so. I think he was clearly vulnerable to the same weakness that took down his grandfather in the end: love for the creations of his own hands. Not to mention, he surely seems to have had all the pride and self-certainty for which his House is known: anyone who would accept the counsel of Sauron would not have what it takes to be High King.

Given the track record of the House of Fëanor, I can't imagine him actually wanting that sort of position. And if he had... well, that sort of desire really would have proven that he wasn't fit for it.

Originally Posted by Alcuin

Fëanor was locked forever in Mandos because of his iniquities. Maedhros, Celegorm, Caranthir, and Curufin were likely locked away for ages, too, along with many of their followers.

And what about the twins?

[The Telcontarion]

Originally Posted by ElemmÃ*rë

And what about the twins?

Alas for the the twins, poor them. They only where following the orders of their older brothers I fear.

Say not that no Noldo would accept Celembrimbor as high king, for even Galadriel cared for and respected him greatly and she is more than elvin wise; the same who rejected Feanor from the outset. Even ages before that, in Naugrothond he was held in high esteem.

[Elemmírë]

Originally Posted by The Telcontarion

Alas for the the twins, poor them. They only where following the orders of their older brothers I fear.

Come now! The twins were hardly malleable young children, unable to go against their brothers' wishes if they so desired. If you're going to claim that they were only following orders, you'd have to say the same for Maglor (and with more support as well), Caranthir, and the aforementioned followers of the House of Fëanor.

And, of course, you could also say they were all just following Fëanor's orders... which is true enough, if not a good justification.

Originally Posted by The Telcontarion

Say not that no Noldo would accept Celembrimbor as high king, for even Galadriel cared for and respected him greatly and she is more than elvin wise; the same who rejected Feanor from the outset. Even ages before that, in Naugrothond he was held in high esteem.

First of all, there's a difference between caring for and respecting, and accepting as High King. Just because Galadriel liked him as a person doesn't mean that she would have felt that he would have been a good High King, even if the shadow of the House of Fëanor hadn't laid over him.

Secondly, Galadriel being "elven wise" might have been part of the reason she was able to look past his family history (along with the fact that they were cousins). I doubt that enough of the other remaining Noldor would have been wise enough to do the same.

Where does it say he was held in high esteem in Nargothrond, by the way? I don't really remember him being spoken of as more than an afternote, most of the time. But I suppose I am a bit rusty now...

[The Telcontarion]

Originally Posted by ElemmÃ*rë

Come now! The twins were hardly malleable young children, unable to go against their brothers' wishes if they so desired. If you're going to claim that they were only following orders, you'd have to say the same for Maglor (and with more support as well), Caranthir, and the aforementioned followers of the House of Fëanor.

And, of course, you could also say they were all just following Fëanor's orders... which is true enough, if not a good justification.



First of all, there's a difference between caring for and respecting, and accepting as High King. Just because Galadriel liked him as a person doesn't mean that she would have felt that he would have been a good High King, even if the shadow of the House of Fëanor hadn't laid over him.

Secondly, Galadriel being "elven wise" might have been part of the reason she was able to look past his family history (along with the fact that they were cousins). I doubt that enough of the other remaining Noldor would have been wise enough to do the same.

Where does it say he was held in high esteem in Nargothrond, by the way? I don't really remember him being spoken of as more than an afternote, most of the time. But I suppose I am a bit rusty now...

Perhaps, but...

I think you said it nicely yourself:

Originally Posted by ElemmÃ*rë

Elf: Maedhros and Maglor. I like those two almost equally, though I've always been a bit more obsessive in my love for Maedhros (it must be the name Russandol ). I can't blame any of them for that damn Oath, considering the circumstances and what they all must have felt (terror, shock, betrayal, grief, and their obvious love for Fëanor), but I really respect those two for holding up so well under it for so long. I could write a lot more but I won't...

Maybe, just maybe, someone other than Galadriel saw Celebrimbor for what he truly was, the last high king. Noblest of all elves that yet lived, east of the sea.

Just maybe...

[jammi567]

Originally Posted by Alcuin

Gil-galad is High-King of the Eldar in Middle-earth and not Celebrimbor because of the Doom of the Noldor, which may also have affected the outcome of the MÃ*rdain’s manufacture of the Rings of Power:

but if you notice, Gil-galad was also a Noldor, and thus under the curse.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Gil-Galad for high king. He has a cool song about him.

[The Telcontarion]

Originally Posted by jammi567

but if you notice, Gil-galad was also a Noldor, and thus under the curse.

You would be right if he was part of the rebellion and chose to follow feanor. Was he not born in middle-earth.

Besides the curse was laid to rest after the last battle - see landroval.

[jammi567]

in that case, it wouldn't matter because then there wouldn't be anything againsy either of them being high king.