Multi-culturalism boon or bane?

[hectorberlioz]

just thought this should be read:

http://www.townhall.com/columnists/W...sity_adulation

[inked]

Here's an interesting bit that prompted me to re-locate this thread. Not all persons equally value multicultural diversity, especially in matters of religious sensibility.

http://religion.info/english/articles/article_354.shtml

Who's being the least sensitive here? Anyone oversensitive? Since the business in question has an equally offensive to all sort of nonchalance, is there any action they should take? What about international law implications? Copyright might be the answer, but I really don't know if one can do that in this case since the material hasn't been previously so restricted.

[brownjenkins]

There's nothing wrong with people reacting to it, but there is nothing wrong with continuing to let it exist either. American culture makes fun of Jesus in all sorts of ways 24/7, and I see it as a good way to break down entrenched beliefs over the generations.

[inked]

Apparently Egyptians build walls to keep people from Palestine out of Egypt! I am shocked, shocked, I tell you. From the mainstream media I thought it was only Israel ... what is Arab unity coming to? (Apparently no more than when the area was under the control of Egypt and Jordan, but that's history stuff).

http://www.charter.net/news/news_rea...555&feedid=249

RAFAH, Gaza Strip (AP) — Egyptian border guards wielding clubs and electric prods directed throngs of Palestinians as they crossed into Egypt for a second day Thursday, but made little attempt to block the flow from Gaza.

Still, Egyptian officials warned the Gazans' brief bliss of freedom, shopping and visiting relatives will soon come to an end with the resealing of the border.

For the second day in a row, scenes of frenzy, chaos and joy played out at the Gaza-Egypt border. Guards channeled crowds through a handful of openings, where Palestinians pushed, shouted, and jostled their way into Egypt, braving a gauntlet of cows, camels, fertilizer, food and truckloads of cement.

In what looked like a first step toward restoring a border, Egyptian security forces turned back Palestinians who attempted to travel deeper into Egypt — though they did nothing to stem the flow of Egyptian goods making their way to the frontier region to replenish rapidly depleting stocks. ...

cattle prods, too

Multiculturalism is just too much for some folks to handle, eh?

[The Gaffer]

As you know, you are comparing two different things. Palestine is actually part of Israel; the wall Israel built around Palestinian areas is an internal border. You will also know the pressure that has been put on Egypt to stop movement of arms into Palestine through its border.

I don't know why this would be seen as "anti" multiculturalism. Is it because you think that they are "all the same" therefore they should be supporting each other?

[brownjenkins]

Futher proof that walls don't work and that we'll eventually have to learn to live with cultures living together, like it or not.

[Nautipus]

Here's something I found:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n7WJeqxuOfQ

Food for thought, no pun intended.

[Mari]

Here is something I found on the same subject:
CIA World Factbook, net immigration Compare the numbers in the US with that of the Netherlands, Belgium, the United Arab. Emirates, etc. and keep in mind the difference in size of the countries.
I'm not saying that the statistics from that man in the vid are wrong, just saying that they can be slightly misinterpreted. The same thing keeps happening here in the Netherlands everytime there is another group pleading to send all the people (who we begged to come here in the sixties to do our dirty work for us) back to their country of origin. A lot of statistics out there, each proving a different point, often contradicting and explainable in several ways, depending on the goal behind it.

Another view on the whole thing.

Originally Posted by http://ethnicharvest.org/mission/immigratnfacts.htm

Immigration has a modest but positive effect on the U.S. economy, according to American Demographics, adding about $10 billion a year to America's economic output. Even more important is the contribution immigrants and their children make just by being here to provide workers and leaders for the future. If today's immigration totals hold steady, it will account for about two-thirds of U.S. population growth over the next 50 years.

Presbyterian Fronter Fellowship has published an interesting list of Ethnic Groups in the USA with over 100,000 population (1996).

The Population Reference Bureau publishes articles analyzing data and trends from the 2000 USA Census.

For more U.S. population statistics (including free demographics for your state), see "Who Lives in Your State?".

The U.S. Census Bureau offers maps, tables and articles at its American FactFinder site.

(On the original page, there are quite a few links within the text, but it seems that you would have to go to the page itself for that)

[sisterandcousinandaunt]

The birth rate in the USA is still a little higher than in Europe, but that's part of the problem. People who want to retire, but have no extended family, count on society for their care.

[Mari]

Yeah, same here. But people aren't really riled up about that yet. Sure some people have to work longer, but the main issue is still the "foreigners" in our country. While they only constitute 8% I think of our population... These "foreigners" being specific groups, mostly Islamic people... multiculturalism, listening to eachother and learning from eachother is still far away in the heads of some people. And then there's this crazy politician who is anti-Islam, or so it seems. Sigh. Sorry, I'll stop before I get all riled up about it.

[BeardofPants]

World CIA factbook is a pretty reliable source, mari. Not much skewing going on - just the numbers. It's when you try and draw (oftentimes) spurious relationships, that you start getting in trouble. We (New Zealand Defence Force) often use the statistics provided through CIA factbook for our products.

[Mari]

Yes I know. About it being pretty reliable I mean. I was just questioning the explanation the man in the vid Nauti posted gave. And I was commenting on the interpretation of statistics in general Sorry, should have stated that more clearly.
Thanks by the way

[The Gaffer]

Same story in the UK: in fact, taken as a whole, immigrants contribute more per head to the economy, including taxation, than residents. Still, like everyone else we're not ones to let the facts get in the way of a little hysteria.

Originally Posted by sisterandcousinandaunt

The birth rate in the USA is still a little higher than in Europe, but that's part of the problem. People who want to retire, but have no extended family, count on society for their care.

And quite right too. Having spent one's life working and paying tax, it is absolutely correct that the state should provide in later life.

[inked]

Multicultural or not?

http://billyockham.blogspot.com/2008...therlands.html

Yep. The youtube one that was pulled. Free speech and all!

[Mari]

Free speech...
The reason the video was taken off line is that currently the minister of Law is deciding whether the content is against the law or not. If it isn't, I'm sure the block will be lifted.
I don't really see what this has to do with multiculturalism by the way.

[Curufin]

Free speech, even in the United States, is not an unlimited right. It's been limited again and again by sedition acts, by supreme court decisions against 'hate speech' and 'fighting words,' by laws applying to 'incitement to riot', through libel and slander laws etc. etc. ad infinitum.

It gets on my nerves when Americans (and anyone else) say that they have an absolute freedom of speech. You don't. Nobody does. We have the right to say and believe what we want with certain restrictions that, for the most part, make living life a whole lot easier and safer (for example, the oft-cited example of crying 'fire' in a crowded theater').

When it comes to multiculturalism, Free Speech gets into sticky waters. People have the right to hate other people and other cultures. This may make them disgusting Neanderthal bigots, but it's their right to be that way. They don't have the right to harrass these people (verbally or otherwise), or to libel or slander them (as the Dutch video comes close to doing).

[Mari]

The vid is back online, though it is still under close inspection. At least, that's what the news just said.
Couldn't agree more by the way. Free speech is all nice and everything, but it has to have its limits.

[Earniel]

Although I do think it is also necessary for people to still be able to be critical of other societies and cultures. What has bothered me more with this Wilders video is that seemingly the reasons for denouncing it loud and clearly are not primarily ethical, but economical: not because it might insult people, but because those people -when they feel insulted- will react with an economical boycot or worse, with violence.

I don't think Wilders video was a good idea to put it mildly, I have only seen a tiny bit of it, so I can't really judge. But going by news items it wasn't half as bad as most people were getting worked up about. And I don't think death threats are the way to go about it. If he wanted to proof that the Koran encited violence, than you're just proving his point is you go demonstarting about with 'kill Wilders' signs. To me it looks like nobody is interesting to denounce that sort of behaviour.

[Mari]

I think the main factor was fear of violence, not economical boycotts. Damaged political relations may also have been a point. Don't forget we have soldiers in Afghanistan and other Dutch people working in Islamic countries, countries that might get upset.
In the Metro and Spits there were quite a lot people who agreed with Wilders by the way. There was even one person who wrote that her eyes had been opened to just how bad and murderous the Islam truly was. So far for Dutch people being able to think
By the way, a new person has said that he wants to make a film about the Islam. It will be a cartoon showing Muhammad going to a Mosque in "enlarged state" to have fun with his 9-year old wife...
Where to draw the line?
*seriously considers moving to a different country* Any room left in Belgium for another Dutchie, Eärn?

[inked]

Mari,

What the video had to do with multiculturalism was to illustrate two diametrically opposed cultural norms in conflict. The stated subject and its consequences as understood by the perpetrators of violence in the achievement of their understanding of the goals versus the opposite cultural understanding in the filmmakers illustrated in their material, arrangement, and product. Thus you have a visual and programmatic content of two cultures in conflict.

Whether you agree with either of the two cultures is precisely the point. You may not agree with either. But, how does a society go about deciding what degree -if any- of multiculturalism is acceptable?

If you appeal to the idea of fairness and equality and justice, et cetera, you have appealed in fact to the tertium quid, the third thing outside the claims of either culture to an objective standard to judge the claims of the presenters. This is often referred to as morality or oughtness or the Tao (to borrow CS Lewis' often quoted summation of human morality).

The facts are that different societal constructs may be in total opposition and incapable of multiculturalism's goals. Therefore, the assumption of the equality of all cultures is shown to be false a priori. Where to from that?