Valar refuse to receive the Ring?

[Jon S.]

Originally Posted by CAB

Maybe the Valar were unwilling to give more help just because it wasn’t their job anymore. Seems kind of selfish, but I guess they would just be keeping in character.

No more or less selfish - or free-will affirming - than a religion teaching something like God created and then refused to rein in Satan. It all depends on your POV.

[Olmer]

Originally Posted by The Gaffer

I think there is some truth in this, though I don't think it was some sort of elvish conspiracy.

Let's say, no conspiracy, but elvish politic.

Originally Posted by Gaffer

Elves did not "belong" in Middle-Earth. .

No, by original Eru's plan they DID belong to ME. Otherwise their birthplace would be the lake Lorellin in Valinor, not Cuivienen in Middle Earth.

Originally Posted by Gaffer

But the books are full of wistful elves concerning themselves with higher matters than the here and now

The Earth is full of wistful people thinking that it's better pastures elsewere, but not where they are.
Seems Galadriel had more realistic point of view.

Earendil alone managed to get them to break their rule, and he had a Silmaril, and Beleriand was in ruin.

That part of information is really interesting. Note, that while the silmarills were in Morgoth pocession, Valar did not step a foot on ME. Only, when they got one of the Sils, they sent Vingilot equipped with it. So, they made an exeption to Earendil, because he came with delivery of very much significance.
I think, all racket about having the silmarills was not about their beauty, but about their strategic use: something like a catalyst for an overpoweful lazer ray.
Feanor, definately, knew about the danger, which this stones could inflict on ME if they will get in the hands of knowledgable.This is why he wanted to put a tight lid on his invention.

Originally Posted by Gordis

You have to agree, Olmer, that the Ring sent to Mordor with a hobbit had MUCH more chances to end up in the hands of Sauron than to get lost without trace. Even if the Wise did realise that the nazgul had no real motivation to search for the Ring in earnest, there were also orcs. Wasn't it simpler to go throw the Ring into the Sea?

If you look at it from the canon's point of view. But if you will take in consideration all pieces, which are falling out of the picture, you begin to think about another possibilities.
I have a theory about an agreement between two maia: Sauron and Gandalf, but it's too big to interject it in this thread

Originally Posted by Landroval

Sauron's plan wasn't to get the elves to flee, but to "destroy" them (Of the rings of power and the third age, Silmarillion).

This is the story writen by hobbits, as it has been told them by elves.
Considering Sauron's lame actions against them, the claim that he wanted "to destroy" them was, at least measure, a misleading.

Originally Posted by Landroval

As far as Arnor is concerned, I doubt that the disunity of the dunedain could have ever lead to the utter destruction of the three kingdoms - it was Angmar's intervention which lead to the falls of Rhudaur, Cardolan and Arthedain. During the war with the witch-king, two kindgoms were on one side, while Rhudaur was overwhelmed and the dunedain there could not make a difference.

If you will look at the history of Arnor, you will find that desolation of the land had happened not after Angmar's intrusion, but after intervention of Gondor.

Originally Posted by Jon S

No more or less selfish - or free-will affirming - than a religion teaching something like God created and then refused to rein in Satan.

Unless his unpredictable behavior was included in the Grand Plan. God is Universal and the powers of nature , a.k.a. Valar, are universal too. No matter how this of that religion is interpreting theis powers, you can't take out one power without destroying all intricate connections between them, thus putting the world in turmoil.

[Jon S.]

Originally Posted by Olmer

Unless his unpredictable behavior was included in the Grand Plan.

Agreed but that still leaves the question of why was such unpredictable behavior needed in the first place?

To spell it out now: to be human means to have free will, to have free will means to have good and evil choices, to have good and evil choices means evil exists to confront and overcome through our own personal effort.

Not that a Sauron or Satan per se is needed for any of this, of course. Simple randomnes/chaoticness works, too. The key, as you correctly note, is the unpredicatability.

Originally Posted by Jon S.

My own view? The Valar intervened indirectly by sending the Wizards. That was enough. (If I were to be a wise guy about it I might add that having already provided the toilet paper, going further would have reduced the free peoples of ME to babies who couldn't wipe their butts for themselves. )

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Olmer

I have a theory about an agreement between two maia: Sauron and Gandalf, but it's too big to interject it in this thread

Then make a new one!

[Jon S.]

Just as a reputation, once acquired, requires upkeeping, a theory, once propounded, requires re-confirmation. That's the problem with outrageous theories like some of us sometimes offer here such as secret plots by Gandalf and the like. They're cool at first and do help get us thinking but soon enough the pressure on the originators to reinterpret/force everything potentially contadictory into line to ensure continued support soon becomes, at best, unwieldy.

[Landroval]

Olmer, I don't know why you say that Of the rings of power is a story written by hobbits - nor can I qualify Sauron's actions against the elves as lame.

If you will look at the history of Arnor, you will find that desolation of the land had happened not after Angmar's intrusion, but after intervention of Gondor.

According to the Heirs of Elendil, HoME V, the destruction of the kingdoms clearly occured during Angmar's attacks (The witch king overruns Cardolan and Rhudaur. Cardolan is ravaged and destroyed and becomes desolate...
In 1974 the Witch-king destroyed Fornost, laid Arthedain waste, and scattered the remnants of the Dunedain.). In RotK, the end of Arnor is attributed to the small number of the dunedain and of the other people in Eriador. To suppose that there would have been much more people alive in order to populate Arnor, should Gondor have not sent its help, is just amusing.

you can't take out one power without destroying all intricate connections between them, thus putting the world in turmoil.

According to the Atrabeth, this is what will happen in Arda, once Eru himself enters it - Melkor is defeated for good and all marring will be removed.

[The Gaffer]

Originally Posted by Olmer

No, by original Eru's plan they DID belong to ME. Otherwise their birthplace would be the lake Lorellin in Valinor, not Cuivienen in Middle Earth.

What's your basis for that belief?

Jon puts his finger on it I think: the free will to make choices.

Unfortunately Melkor had got to them before Orome, and taught them fear, so some of them feared the Valar and refused the call.

Sil/LotR/all the other stuff is replete with information consistent with the statement that the elves who paid most attention to the call had the most power/grace/bliss, whilst the ones who paid least attention had the least.

The ones who stuck around to the bitter end eventually faded from the physical world and became pure spirit, "their bodies consumed by their fea" (can't remember the source for that one).

Plus, when an elf snuffs it they reappear in the Halls of Mandos.

Originally Posted by Olmer

The Earth is full of wistful people thinking that it's better pastures elsewere, but not where they are.

I don't think you can dismiss the elves' sea-longing in this way.