Snowstorm at the Redhorn Pass

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by arvedui_last_king

I doubt Sauron was responsible, because wasn't he originally one of the people of Aule? Tolkien never says that he had any intrest in the air like Manwe did. Saruman was also chosen to go to middle earth by Aule, so he isn't a windy person either. As for Gandalf, he was supposed never to reveal his power: he didn't even want to summon up some fire on Caradhras, so I doubt he would have caused the storm.

So perhaps it was Manwe's doing?

I imagine Manwe watching and fuming: "Blast you, Olorin! You must go via Moria! What in Angband are you doing at the Redhorn Pass? Stupid incompetent FOOL! I shall help you to choose the right way!" *puffs his cheeks and blows on Caradhras*

It was generally believed that Sauron was able to cause storms in the Mts of Shadow (see Boromir's words). No one did question his weather-competence, only his ability to cause storms at such a distance. Certainly he made the East Wind to sent the fumes of Mt.Doom westwards to create the pall of darkness necessary for his orcs, and demoralizing for his enemies.

And about Gandalf. IMO, he was reluctant to light a fire not because of the restrictions laid on Istari, but because he supposed that SOMEONE was actually WATCHING! And that means, by the way, that he didn't think that it was the mountain itself that caused him problems.

And I also don't think it was Gandalf who caused the storm - too complicated a way to persuade the Fellowship. Everyone would have heeded his advice.

[Old toby's wicked weed]

hello. i hve found a discussion on mr j r r tolkien at last.

hello - i have called myself old toby's wicked weed, and i be a non gay, non bisexual guy into discussing Mr J RR Toilkien - how are you all?

maychance it was just a windy day?

It must snow up high there in the mountaains on a time, yes?

[Farimir Captain of Gondor]

Didnt Sauron make a large cloud or something to cover Minus Tirith to make it easier for the orcs to travel there?(i may be wrong here) If he did this why couldnt he make a snow storm to stop them on the mountain? I think it was just a chance storm that wasnt expected and couldnt have been predicted.

[arvedui_last_king]

Originally Posted by Farimir Captain of Gondor

Didnt Sauron make a large cloud or something to cover Minus Tirith to make it easier for the orcs to travel there?(i may be wrong here) If he did this why couldnt he make a snow storm to stop them on the mountain? I think it was just a chance storm that wasnt expected and couldnt have been predicted.

Yes, but the darknees was caused IMO by the fumes of Mount Doom. Mount Doom was Saurons forge, where he made the Ring. If he wanted to, he could have made his forging fire smoke a bit and make a cloud. However, could he have made the storm 600 miles away just by using smoke? I don't think so, it wasn't in his power.

I don't think it was Gandalf or Manwe because that sounds an awful lot like a conspiracy thory to me. If the company had crossed the Red Horn it would have been better for the Company - except they would never have met Gollum and the quest would have failed. Some people would argue that Gandalf knew this, but from what it says in UT I don't think he was consciously aware of where his descisions would lead the Company. So maybe it was just fate. A chance-storm, as men say in Middle-Earth.

[Farimir Captain of Gondor]

Originally Posted by arvedui_last_king

Yes, but the darknees was caused IMO by the fumes of Mount Doom. Mount Doom was Saurons forge, where he made the Ring. If he wanted to, he could have made his forging fire smoke a bit and make a cloud. However, could he have made the storm 600 miles away just by using smoke? I don't think so, it wasn't in his power.

okay thanx

[CAB]

I would like to suggest another possibility. Maybe an unknown Maia caused the snowstorm. In the Valaquenta it is implied that there are many more Maiar than those which are familiar to Elves and Men, so it seems likely that there are others in Middle Earth beyond the handful we know. Perhaps this is someone like Bombadil (assuming of course that Bombadil is a Maia) who has chosen to live in a particular area and has great power within it’s bounds. Being secretive, it’s deeds were attributed to Caradhras itself. Such a being could have any motivation for causing the company trouble ( doesn’t like the ring, doesn’t like Hobbits, in a bad mood that day, etc.). While it is tempting to think that this is an unbodied Maia to help explain why it has remained unnoticed, I don’t believe this is the case. Apparently Maiar have to have a body in order to control the “substance of Arda” (This is said concerning Melian in the “Of the Ruin of Doriath” chapter of the Silmarillion, I believe there are other examples of this idea in Tolkien’s writings). Still, even a bodied Maia can probably maintain a low profile if it wants to, as long as it doesn’t pull and Ulmo and make itself into a giant wave or something.

[Lotesse]

That's an interesting idea; I like that. Like a hermit Maia? Or a "wise guru on the mountain" kind of crazy loner Maia? I rather like that idea. Welcome to Entmoot, CAB - I see this here is your first post. Great first post! A big welcome to you.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Olmer, I disagree with you here. Yes the One was more powerful than Narya, but there was no need for Gandalf to exert force like that in order for things to be done his way. Remember what Frodo said when Gandalf and Aragorn revealed their thoughts about Moria to the Company.

Originally Posted by Frodo

"I do not wish to go, but neither do I wish to refuse the advice of Gandalf.I beg that there should be no more vote, until we have slept on it.Gandalf will get votes easier in the light of the morning than in this cold gloom. How the wind howls!"

Frodo respected Gandalf's opinion and would follow his 'orders' and Gandalf most probably knew that.

[Olmer]

Originally Posted by Telcontar_Dunedain

"I do not wish to go, but neither do I wish to refuse the advice of Gandalf. Gandalf will get votes easier in the light of the morning than in this cold gloom."
... but there was no need for Gandalf to exert force like that in order for things to be done his way.
Frodo respected Gandalf's opinion and would follow his 'orders' and Gandalf most probably knew that

Thanks for quote. For me it's one more prove of Gandalf's ability to persuade. Given enough time he would cajole anyone, but in Frodo's case the ringbearer needed to be convinced to WISH to do something, in this matter to wish to come along with Gandalf's plan.

Originally Posted by Gordis

Saruman could persuade even a nazgul (UT).
Saruman persuades the White Counsil several times, beating Gandalf to it. Only once did Gandy overrule him, in the matter of Dol-Guldur...
Let us take Gondor. Saruman was in high esteem there, Gandalf was frowned upon.
In Rohan he was called "stormcrow".
Gandalf had been much involved in Arnor affairs, but what unity was there ever achieved?

So, we agreed that hobbits and dwarves had been heavily presuaded by the Grey Wizard to do his bids.

The fact is that we don't know how succesful was Gandalf in his pesuasion of common Men. But we know that Aragorn was "dancing to his pipe", also Theoden and Faramir. Only smart and experienced Denethor saw his "true colour" and treated him with distrust, apprehending Mithrandir's schemes to supplant him (which turned out not to be baseless) .
Also the wise, silver-tongued Rohan king's councellor did not let himself to be fooled by Gandalf, for what he earned his new name -Wormtongue, given , of course, by Gandalf.
As about men of Arnor and Gandalf's involvement... There is not too much said about it, and I suspect that exactly his involvements in Arnor's affairs had been adding to the destruction of the Northern Kingdom.

Gandalf and Nazgul...We know that he met them "up-close" and, as he claimed, he barely managed to escape. Don't you find strange that the Nine run away from Dunadan with measiy torch and was not deterred with “such light and flame that cannot have been seen…since the war-beacons of old” thrown by Gandalf? How difficult was his "escape"? And was it escape at all? Maybe it was just a meeting with old aquintances? After all he was a pretty frequent visitor at the Nazgul's "hanging out place" - Dol-Guldur.I understand of risking your life once, but he went three times to snoop around!Seems to me he had been pretty comfortable around there.
So, maybe, he was not really interested in persuading the White Council to oppose Saruman's suggestions.
As matter of fact, the White Council did not terribly mind to be persuaded to do nothing, and instead of fighting the Dark forces spent in perfect limbo 2000 years.

Originally Posted by CAB

Maybe an unknown Maia caused the snowstorm.

Good idea, CAB.I don't really see the reason for someone to be involved into causing problems for the small company of earth dwellers, but since it said that with Valar many of lesser powers descended to Arda, it's quite possible that some of them became the souls of inorganic matters with their own tempers, like the soul of Caradhras.

BTW, Wellcome to Moot!

Originally Posted by mithrand1r

The simplest explanation is often the best explanation. (no always correct, but I think the best)
JRRT comes to mind.

According to Occam razor's rule this is the most obvious explanation.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Originally Posted by Olmer

The fact is that we don't know how succesful was Gandalf in his pesuasion of common Men. But we know that Aragorn was "dancing to his pipe", also Theoden and Faramir. Only smart and experienced Denethor saw his "true colour" and treated him with distrust, apprehending Mithrandir's schemes to supplant him (which turned out not to be baseless) .
Also the wise, silver-tongued Rohan king's councellor did not let himself to be fooled by Gandalf, for what he earned his new name -Wormtongue, given , of course, by Gandalf.

I think this is a bit over the top but has some basis of truth. I disagree with you about Aragorn. It was his idea to take the route of Caradhras in the first place. If Gandalf really wanted to dissuade him as you say he would surely have done it before hand. I think you are closest to the mark with Theoden. Do you remember what Theoden said at Helms Deep. "I now miss both my counellor's, old and new."

[CAB]

Thank you to Lotesse and Olmer for your welcome. It is good to be here. I would like to add something to what I posted before if I may. Let’s not forget that Caradhras has had a bad reputation for a very long time. Gimli says “Caradhras was called the Cruel, and had an ill name long years ago, when rumor of Sauron had not been heard in these lands.” That suggests that the mountain has been seen as evil since very early in the second age at the latest, probably much earlier when you also look at Aragorn’s quote concerning who or what he thought caused the snowstorm, “There are many evil and unfriendly things in the world that have little love for those that go on two legs, and yet are not in league with Sauron, but have purposes of their own. Some have been in this world longer than he”. Just how would a mountain get the name of Cruel anyway? I would guess by having: violent weather, rock falls, and maybe some scary voices thrown in, at inopportune moments, seeming to be guided by a Will. What turns the fellowship back? Violent weather, rock falls, and scary voices, at an inopportune time, seemingly guided by a Will. Considering this, I believe the force that caused the snowstorm is probably the same force that has been causing the occasional traveler similar troubles for over 6000 years. This is unlikely to be any of the original suspects listed except for Caradhras itself (or in my opinion someone closely associated with Caradhras since, as Arvedui has already said, it would be unlikely for a mountain itself to be evil), or admittedly the Balrog could also be a possibility if you lean towards Caradhras’s ill repute starting early in the second age instead of the first. The Balrog most likely came into the neighborhood of Caradhras at the very beginning of the second age.

[Gordis]

I like your idea, CAB. And welcome here.

Indeed .the ill will of Caradhras may be explained by the presence of a dour maia in the area. Maybe not the Barlog, but some evil wind-spirit, originally a maia of Manwe.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Olmer

Gandalf and Nazgul...We know that he met them "up-close" and, as he claimed, he barely managed to escape. Don't you find strange that the Nine run away from Dunadan with measiy torch and was not deterred with “such light and flame that cannot have been seen…since the war-beacons of old” thrown by Gandalf? How difficult was his "escape"? And was it escape at all? Maybe it was just a meeting with old aquintances? After all he was a pretty frequent visitor at the Nazgul's "hanging out place" - Dol-Guldur.I understand of risking your life once, but he went three times to snoop around!Seems to me he had been pretty comfortable around there.

Well, you know yourself, as well as I do, that the Nine didn't run away from Aragorn with his torch. He was most surprised himself when they withdrew. It was their choice, and we used to agree on the reason for it.

I think Gandalf's escape from Weathertop was easy, not because he was the nazgul's old buddy, but because they wanted him away, not necessarily dead. They were not keen on a serious fight. Those Maiar...better be left alone. Once Gandalf was gone, the nazgul were happy, though four came after him to be sure he doesn't turn back to meddle.

Nazgul level of power in this skirmish with Gandalf seems fairly consistent with what they have shown previously during their Ring-hunt: taken the bridge of Osgiliath, driven away and frightened to death everything living in the Anduin Vale, wiped away the guard of Rangers at Sarn-Ford etc.

Only when the Ring was near, they suddenly turned weak and pathetic: - at Weathertop with Aragorn, in Bree (couldn't they storm the inn and kill everyone there?)- sure the inn full of civilians is an easier target than a guard of Rangers at Sarn Ford!, and so on. But that has been discussed before.

As for being a frequent visitor in Dol Guldur, Gandalf had been visiting while Sauron was hiding (taking shape) there, not the nazgul. The Nine lived in Minas Morgul from 2002 till 2951, when 3 of them were sent to Dol Duldur. Gandalf's visits might be connected with a secret truce between the Necromancer and the White Counsil.

[CAB]

Thank you Gordis. Let me ask your opinion on this, I think it is related to the snowstorm question. It seems pretty clear that the Sirannon was dammed so the Watcher in the Water could guard the West gate of Moria. Only the inhabitants of Moria would take the trouble to do this, but it is doubtful that the Orcs could or would want to coax the Watcher to the newly created pool. This suggests that the Balrog was involved. Also look at the timing of the Watcher’s attack. It waits until just after the doors are opened (the company has been sitting outside the doors for quite a while) and then goes straight for the Ringbearer and no one else. It takes one half-hearted shot at capturing the ring immediately and when this fails it goes back to the real plan which is to force the ring towards the Balrog. If it had attacked moments earlier the company probably would have never entered Moria. The Watcher even goes so far as to bar the door after the company has gone inside. I think this is a pretty drastic move unless it is aware of the importance of the situation or has been given direct orders to do this. One other thing, although it seems a little improbable. The wolves that the company encounters could also be serving the Balrog. It was the only real power in the area. Maybe they weren’t really trying to kill the company but (along with the Watcher and whatever made the snowstorm) were merely forcing them to go to Moria.

[Farimir Captain of Gondor]

Originally Posted by CAB

Thank you Gordis. Let me ask your opinion on this, I think it is related to the snowstorm question. It seems pretty clear that the Sirannon was dammed so the Watcher in the Water could guard the West gate of Moria. Only the inhabitants of Moria would take the trouble to do this, but it is doubtful that the Orcs could or would want to coax the Watcher to the newly created pool. This suggests that the Balrog was involved. Also look at the timing of the Watcher’s attack. It waits until just after the doors are opened (the company has been sitting outside the doors for quite a while) and then goes straight for the Ringbearer and no one else. It takes one half-hearted shot at capturing the ring immediately and when this fails it goes back to the real plan which is to force the ring towards the Balrog. If it had attacked moments earlier the company probably would have never entered Moria. The Watcher even goes so far as to bar the door after the company has gone inside. I think this is a pretty drastic move unless it is aware of the importance of the situation or has been given direct orders to do this. One other thing, although it seems a little improbable. The wolves that the company encounters could also be serving the Balrog. It was the only real power in the area. Maybe they weren’t really trying to kill the company but (along with the Watcher and whatever made the snowstorm) were merely forcing them to go to Moria.

Man, thats an amazing theory! I've never thought of it that way. I just assumed that he attacked them cause they were there and he went for Frodo cause he was the closest one. I wonder how the Balrog knew the ring was coming his way? He didnt associate with the orcs. And if the pool was created for this reason how did he know the fellowship would take that path? True the storm made them but still. He would have to know that Saruman would betray them and they wouldnt take the Gap of Rohan, or that they would even try to destroy the ring for that matter. I'm going to have to think about this one for awhile. Great, great theory.

[CAB]

Thanks Farimir. I don’t think that the pool would have been made just to deal with the fellowship, it was already there. One of Balin’s companions had apparently been taken by the Watcher years earlier when he (Balin) tried to reoccupy Moria. Also if the wolves were working with the Balrog then Saruman wouldn’t really play into things. The company wouldn’t want to try to travel all the way to the Gap of Rohan while being chased by wolves, and maybe other forces that the wolves would lead to them. I must admit that I am making some assumptions here that a lot of people probably won’t agree with. I do believe that the Balrog was associating with the Orcs.. Balrogs were apparently leaders in Morgoth’s armies, so they have done this before. Also I am assuming that the Balrog had an awareness of what was going on in the world outside it’s own lair. I think this can be justified by pointing out that the Balrog is a Maia and I don’t think there are any known examples of Maiar in Middle Earth that are uninformed this way. I am also attributing some intelligence to the Watcher. Anyway, I hope I am not babbling too much.

[Gordis]

Very interesting theories, CAB! And fresh ones, I don't think that had been discussed before.

Originally Posted by CAB

Considering this, I believe the force that caused the snowstorm is probably the same force that has been causing the occasional traveler similar troubles for over 6000 years. This is unlikely to be any of the original suspects listed except for Caradhras itself (or in my opinion someone closely associated with Caradhras since, as Arvedui has already said, it would be unlikely for a mountain itself to be evil), or admittedly the Balrog could also be a possibility if you lean towards Caradhras’s ill repute starting early in the second age instead of the first. The Balrog most likely came into the neighborhood of Caradhras at the very beginning of the second age

.

An evil maia could well be associated with the Mountain since the beginning, yes, for 6000 years or such.

But I doubt that it was the same spirit as the Barlog. It was already mentioned, that the Barlog was a spirit of fire, not wind, but, moreover, it is canon that the Barlog SLEPT throughout all the Second Age and well into the Third till TA 1800. And the evil reputation of Caradhras must have been predating TA 1800
Sleeping, the Barlog didn't mind all those dwarves carving great halls right over his head, and mining deeper and deeper, till one day they actually disturbed him. Strange if this peacefully sleeping Barlog would mind someone passing over the Redhorn pass, if he didn't mind activity even in Moria itself.

Originally Posted by CAB

Thank you Gordis. Let me ask your opinion on this, I think it is related to the snowstorm question. It seems pretty clear that the Sirannon was dammed so the Watcher in the Water could guard the West gate of Moria. Only the inhabitants of Moria would take the trouble to do this, but it is doubtful that the Orcs could or would want to coax the Watcher to the newly created pool. This suggests that the Balrog was involved. Also look at the timing of the Watcher’s attack. It waits until just after the doors are opened (the company has been sitting outside the doors for quite a while) and then goes straight for the Ringbearer and no one else. It takes one half-hearted shot at capturing the ring immediately and when this fails it goes back to the real plan which is to force the ring towards the Balrog. If it had attacked moments earlier the company probably would have never entered Moria. The Watcher even goes so far as to bar the door after the company has gone inside. I think this is a pretty drastic move unless it is aware of the importance of the situation or has been given direct orders to do this. One other thing, although it seems a little improbable. The wolves that the company encounters could also be serving the Balrog. It was the only real power in the area. Maybe they weren’t really trying to kill the company but (along with the Watcher and whatever made the snowstorm) were merely forcing them to go to Moria.

It seems that the pool was made during the few years when Balin occupied Moria. The damming of the Sirannon may have been a natural phenomenon, or the Watcher took care of that all bu himself. I think, the Watcher was not coaxed there by the orcs, but decided to go there itself, or was sent by the Barlog. Maybe the Watcher was another Maia, or a beast - one of the things that Gandalf later reported he had seen in Moria depths. It is simply unknown. I favour the Maia theory, as apparently the thing sensed the Ring, so grabbed Frodo.
As for the Watcher's motivations, I like your theory very much. I agree he was leaving the Fellowship for the Barlog.

The wolves weren't exactly wolves, but Wargs or Werewolves.

When the full light of the morning came no signs of the wolves were to be found, and they looked in vain for the bodies of the dead. No trace of the fight remained but the charred trees and the arrows of Legolas lying on the hill-top. All were undamaged save one of which only the point was left.
`It is as I feared,' said Gandalf. `These were no ordinary wolves hunting for food in the wilderness. Let us eat quickly and go!'

Note that their dead bodies disappeared. They were some other lesser spirits in wolf form. They could have worked for the Barlog, or Sauron, or simply were on their own.
Aragorn says " 'How the wind howls! ' he cried. 'It is howling with wolf-voices. The Wargs have come west of the Mountains! " So normally they were East of the mountains. Mirkwood? Rhovanion? Anduin vale?
Most likely they were not in league with the Barlog, but with Sauron. Gandalf addresses their leader: "'Listen, Hound of Sauron!"

Actually, I doubt that the Barlog knew about the Fellowship, their route, Saruman's betrayal etc.

But I have another theory: the power and will of the Ring itself attracted Wargs, Watchers, Gollums, orcs and Barlogs much like it attracted the nazgul. The Ring was actively calling to all the evil creatures around. Maybe the Spirit of Caradhras, whatever it was, also felt it.

Here is a quote from the UT, describing the attack on Isildur at the Gladden:

Isildur believed that after their costly repulse the orcs would give way, though their scouts might follow him during the night and watch his camp. That was the manner of Orcs, who were most often dismayed when their prey could turn and bite.
But he was mistaken. There was not only cunning in the attack, but fierce and relentless hatred. The Orcs of the Mountains were stiffened and commanded by grim servants of Barad-dûr, sent out long before to watch the passes, and though it was unknown to them the Ring, cut from his black hand two years before, was still laden with Sauron's evil will and called to all his servants for their aid

.

So, perhaps it is no wonder that the small Fellowship (and Frodo in particular) attracted so much attention.

By the way, the awareness went both ways. Frodo also FELT there was something in the pool, felt danger in front and behind while walking through Moria, felt danger in the well. It was the Ring he carried + the effect of the Morgul wound.

[CAB]

I agree Gordis that the Balrog probably wasn’t the Spirit of Caradhras. I had forgotten (probably on purpose, I never liked the idea of it sleeping for thousands of years) about the Balrog’s long nap.

Let me suggest this. Maybe the Balrog was trying to build up a power base. It had to have known that Sauron’s power was growing. If it was going to stay free of Sauron and hold on to Moria it needed to get stronger in a military and intelligence type sense. It could do this by making allies in the area (Spirit of Caradhras, Watcher) and subjugating others (Wargs, Orcs, maybe some birds for information gathering purposes, the Spirit of Caradhras and the Watcher may also have been subjects rather than allies). I’m not saying that the Balrog was preparing to take over Middle Earth but rather was trying to hold on to it’s freedom and home.

I think if this was true, the Wargs could very easily be serving the Balrog. It was stated that there were wolves (probably Wargs) on Lorien’s boarders, probably very close to Moria. If the Balrog had control of the Redhorn Pass and Moria they had easy access to the east side of the mountains. Even though Gandalf refers to one as “Hound of Sauron” they may have recently switched allegiances to the Balrog during it's power grab. The Balrog is right next door while Sauron is hundreds of miles away. I don’t think these evil types are very loyal.

I’m not really sure what I think about the Balrog’s knowledge of the Ring. How would it know? Certainly Sauron and Saruman didn’t share their knowledge with it. On the other hand the company seems to be almost pushed into Moria. Why would an unknown bunch of travelers get this treatment? I think that your idea that the Ring attracted evil probably explains this and maybe the push into Moria is just an illusion. The Watcher’s actions still seem suspicious to me though.

I like your idea that the Ring caused awareness both ways. Maybe Sauron put that power into the Ring to keep a better eye on his troops.

[Olmer]

Originally Posted by Telcontar_Dunedain

I disagree with you about Aragorn. It was his idea to take the route of Caradhras in the first place.

I see your reason.The problem was that men of numenorean's bearing were not easy to be dissuaded; such people as Aragorn, Denethor and Boromir wouldn't bend to the direct psychological influence (even by Sauron), they needed to be intensely convinced, induced to believe in the rightness of what they are doing. Gandalf's "show and tell" was staged for benefit of the doubters.

Originally Posted by Telcontar_Dunedain

If I think you are closest to the mark with Theoden. Do you remember what Theoden said at Helms Deep. "I now miss both my counellor's, old and new."

Yeah, when I read this, my thought was "So, Grima was as wise, as Gandalf, then he, probably, was not too much of the base seeing the Grey Wizard as a schemer".
To tell the truth Gandalf's advises to Theoden were not only absurd, but downright suicidal.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Olmer

To tell the truth Gandalf's advises to Theoden were not only absurd, but downright suisidal.

You mean???