Gondolin or Nargothrond?

[Last Child of Ungoliant]

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

Save Gondolin! But boot out Turgon and put Fingon in his place.

heresy! turgon rules and we all know it

[Gordis]

Why is Fingon better than Turgon?

[Lady Marion Magdalena]

Why is Fingon better than Turgon?

*sighs and prods the now open can of worms into the middle of the debate*

You may want to stand back Gordis, this could get slimy.

[Last Child of Ungoliant]

or violent, very violent (so long as no one mentions finrod or feanor we'll be ok)

on a serious note, though, gondolin produced far greater things (eg earendil for a start!) than nargothrond, dontcha think?

[Lady Marion Magdalena]

Of course, according to the Orodreth Theory of Parentage, Nargothrond could be said to have produced Gil-Galad.

So... Gil-Galad vs. Earendil this time?

I don't think we've had that debate yet.

[Last Child of Ungoliant]

oh my, what have i started? *flees in terror*

although it could be argued that nargothrond produced celebrimbor, and thusly the rings, and so nargothrond can be blamed for sauron's rise to power...

[Maedhros]

From Here and There:

Behold, the armed guardians of the gate pressed back the thronging folk that gathered about the wanderers, and one among them spake saying: 'This is a city of watch and ward, Gondolin on Amon Gwared, where all may be free who are of true heart, but none may be free to enter unknown. Tell me then your names.'But Voronwë named himself come hither by the will of Ulmo as guide to this son of Men; and Tuor said: 'I am Tuor son of Huor son of Galdor of the House of Hador of the sons of the Men of the North who live far hence, and I fare hither by the will of Ulmo of the Outer Oceans.'
Then all who listened grew silent, and his deep and rolling voice held them in amaze, for their own voices were fair as the plash of fountains. Then a saying arose among them: 'Lead him before the king.'
Then did the throng return within the gates and the wanderers with them, and Tuor saw they were of steel and of great height and strength. Now the streets of Gondolin were paved with stone and wide, kerbed with marble, and fair houses and courts amid gardens of bright flowers mounds of mallorns, birches, and evergreen trees were set about the ways, and many towers of great slenderness and beauty builded of white marble and carved most marvellously rose to the heaven. Squares there were lit with fountains and the home of birds that sang amid the branches of their aged trees, but of all these the greatest was that place where stood the King’s house, and the tower thereof on a pillared arcade was the loftiest in the city, and above it flew the banner of Fingolfin and the fountains that played before the doors shot twenty fathoms and seven in the air and fell in a singing rain of crystal: therein did the sun glitter splendidly by day, and the moon most magically shimmered by night. The birds that dwelt there were of the whiteness of snow and their voices sweeter than a lullaby of music.
On either side of the doors of the palace were the gilded images of two trees, one of gold and the other of silver, and they were in the likeness of the glorious Trees of Valinor that lit those places before Morgoth and Ungoliant withered them: and those trees the Gondolindrim named Glingal and Belthil.

And also: "Yngvi is a LOUSE!"

[Lady Marion Magdalena]

But if it also produced Gil-Galad then it was responsible for both his rise and fall. One must also consider that Finrod faced off against Sauron long before rings came into the picture.

Then again, since the line of Elros produced Ar-Pharazon and Isildur, and Elros was a son of Earnedil and thus a product of Gondolin one could argue that both cities were indirectly responsible for Sauron's rise to power.

(Mwaha! )

[Last Child of Ungoliant]

yes, but gondolin was way more beautiful (see maedhros's post above) mwahaha

and anyway, wlros was also elwing's son, so menegroth was the cause of numenor's fall, and sauron re-arising mwahahahaha

[Lady Marion Magdalena]

Ah but we never really get a full description of Nargothrond, Finrod wasn't known for having shabby taste in interior decorating, for all we know it could have been gorgeous.

Though admittedly, Gondolin is hard to beat.

Course, Menegroth was supposed to be pretty shiny lookwise as well.

Really, if we go by looks or blame we could argue in circles for all eternity, which is something best left to the immortal residents of the cities in question.

[Last Child of Ungoliant]

like myself, for i am turgon

[Lady Marion Magdalena]

And I'm Glorfindel's ward.

[The last sane person]

....

[Lady Marion Magdalena]

...

[The last sane person]

Yeah, I would guess. Hopefully you wont be rained on. Anyways, I vote Nargothrond. I never liked Gondolin. Haven for traitors and the like. Yuck.

[katya]

My first thought was Nargothrond, actually. I was kinda surprised when everyone was going with Gondolin. It was probably because of some sort of bias towards Finrod though.

[Earniel]

Originally Posted by Lady Marion Magdalena

Course, Menegroth was supposed to be pretty shiny lookwise as well.

Indeed, read it here:

[...]Beyond the gates wide passages ran down to high halls and chambers far below that were hewn in the living stone, so many and so great that that dwelling was named Menegroth, the Thousand Caves. But the Elves also had part in that labour, and Elves and Dwarves together, each with their own skill, there wrought out of visions of Melian, images of the wonder and beauty of valinor beyond the Sea. The pillars of Menegroth were hewn in the likeness of the beeches of Oromë, stock, bought, and leaf, and they were lit with lanterns of gold. The nightingales sang there as in the gardens of Lórien; and there were fountains of silver, and basins of marble, and floors of many-coloured stones. Carven figures of beasts and birds there ran upon the walls, or climbed upon the pillars, or peered among the branches entwined with many flowers. And as the years passed Melian and her maidens filled the halls with woven hangings wherein could be read the deeds of the Valar, and many things that had befallen in Arda since its beginning, and shadows of things that were yet to be. That was the fairest dwelling of any king that has ever been east of the Sea.

Hard to beat, isn't it? Particulary the part of "Fairest dwelling of any king that has ever been east of the Sea."

[Lady Marion Magdalena]

True, but Tolkien liked the word 'fair' a whole lot, he describes nearly everything having to do with elves as 'fair', 'more fair' or 'fairest' at least once.

[Earniel]

Awww, couldn't you at least have left me the illusion?

But you're right. It's just like how Tolkien gave characteristics like 'most valiant', 'most noble', 'best', 'greatest' etc... to several different warriors.

[Sister Golden Hair]

In spite of the beauty of all of them, a kingdom is only as good as the king who rules it. While Finrod lived, Nargothrond was instrumental in holding back the enemy. The Guarded Plain protected a large area, and Minas Tirith guarded the Fen of Serech. With the aid of Finrod and permission of Thingol to dwell in his lands, the Haladin defended the Crossings of Teiglin. Nargothrond under Finrod's rule, maintained a policy of secrecy. Not until Orodreth did the people of Nargothrond fight more openly by building the bridge across the Narog where armies issued forth for a few years. The failure to destroy the bridge in time and foolishly meeting the enemy in open battle at Tumhalad caused the destruction and downfall of this kingdom.

Many believe that Turgon's policy of secrecy was so great, that he isolated himself and his people from the rest of the kingdoms, creating his inability to be of any defensive aid. Not until the Nirneath, did Gondolin come out of hiding. The problem with Turgon is that he became prideful of Gondolin and uncaring of the outside world, failing to heed the messangers of Ulmo, resulting in it's downfall.