Gays, lesbians, bisexuals, PART II - Page 2

The last sane person · 02-12-2006, 08:19 PM

Hah, I wish I could come out and be done with it. But if I do, I'll be given the good old boot and have all that would be my measley inheritance (none left, really, thanks to the misadventures of my brothers') and what love adn affection my family has will be tossed out the window. And right now, I cant afford that because I have no where to go and am trying to get through college,so, I keep my silence.

The Gaffer · 02-13-2006, 08:09 AM

Sorry to hear that. It must be very frustrating, but I can well understand how the time has to be right for coming out to your family. If it's any consolation, I have seen several friends go through the process without adverse outcomes, contrary to their expectations.

Last Child of Ungoliant · 02-13-2006, 11:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HOBBIT

16 - Age of consent in NJ

Driver's License varies in every state. Here is NJ:
16- Learner's Permit (have to drive with licensed driver over 21 or something)
17 - Provisional License - can drive by yourself, but with several restrictions. cant driver after Midnight, cant take more than 1 non-related passenger, etc.
18 - FULL License
---------
19 - Can buy Cigarrettes at 19.. just raised from 18

21 - Can legally Drink
21- Can legally Gamble (like casinos, etc. you can buy lotto ticket at 18)
---------------------------------
17 - Can join military with parent permission
18 - Can join military.
------------------------------------------------------------

All these ages are NOT the same. And drinking and gambling is 21 in all states.

for a UK comparison:
Age of Consent for Straight AND Gay - 16
Buy Cigarettes - 16
Play the Lottery - 16
Provisional Driver's Licence (drive a moped with L plates, learn to drive car) - 16
Full Driver's Licence - 17
Buy Alcohol - 18
Vote - 18
Stand for Election - 21

Spock · 02-13-2006, 12:43 PM

LCOU, that's just confusing

thanks for sharing that with us Yanks, etc.

The last sane person · 02-13-2006, 06:41 PM

Well, I've tried to tentatively approach the subject with both my mother and father, and the vehemence tossed my way will knock me back to the beginning of the week. I dont think anything postive will be comming their way once this gets out.

Last Child of Ungoliant · 02-13-2006, 06:58 PM

i was lucky in that my mum was quite pro-individuality, although i still had, and still have, my dad to deal with, who isn't really quite happy with me being who i am

The last sane person · 02-13-2006, 10:38 PM

Do I know how that is. I cant be who I am around them. At least not fully. I'm hiding, and I hate that feeling.

The Gaffer · 02-15-2006, 08:20 AM

Obviously you know your parents best, but it might be that they are rebuffing subtle attempts to approach the topic in the hope that it will just go away and not be an issue.

In other news, gay marriage is good for you: (story from BBC)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/4708710.stm

The last sane person · 02-16-2006, 02:27 PM

Hah! Well, the article makes sense. It aint a walk in the park, and is certainly stressful to say the least.

The last sane person · 02-16-2006, 05:45 PM

Never mind.....

Last Child of Ungoliant · 02-17-2006, 02:58 PM

er, no one's made any jokes...

The last sane person · 02-19-2006, 01:12 AM

Nvm it was deleted.

The Wizard from Milan · 02-19-2006, 11:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lotesse

You get mad? Even though nine or ten mooters made two pages of protest about the name change, and found it offensive, and requested it be changed back? Like 2/3 of the mooters who requested the original name to be reinstated are mooters who never even post here regularly! So, THANK YOU very much, Spock, for giving us back the original title of the thread! Very cool, very cool.

My goodness, I get distracted for a while and the pandemonium breaks loose?
I am glad to have a non-watered down title for the tread, but I also want to make sure that all variations of gender and orientation are welcomed.

The Wizard from Milan · 02-19-2006, 11:15 AM

I think that the idea of "age of consent" is a totally ridiculus idea. Puberty, not law, decides when young people can and will be interested in having sex.
I do support some restrictions on age difference to prevent rape of young people by people who have power

The Wizard from Milan · 02-19-2006, 11:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The last sane person

Hah, I wish I could come out and be done with it. But if I do, I'll be given the good old boot and have all that would be my measley inheritance (none left, really, thanks to the misadventures of my brothers') and what love adn affection my family has will be tossed out the window. And right now, I cant afford that because I have no where to go and am trying to get through college,so, I keep my silence.

It is hard, if you feel you are hiding from your parents. And it is especially hard if you feel financially vulnerable. But think also that telling them about your private life is a gift you make to them; it is a gift that you may as well withhold, if they don't deserve it.

More spcifically about the law, check your contry's law. In Italy each parent must leave 2/3 of his/her inheritance to his/her children, to be subdivided in equal parts among the children. A parent may not legally deprive one of his/her child of the minimum slice of inheritance determined above (unless the child has been legally condemned for attacking the parent physically,...).

The last sane person · 02-19-2006, 03:23 PM

That is certainly not so where I came from. It's pretty much up to them where the money goes. I'm screwed.

The Gaffer · 02-20-2006, 06:50 AM

I disagree that sexual maturity is wholly determined by puberty. I think that a person's ability to make an informed choice about their sexual behaviour may well come well after they grow pubes.

I know many people (all girls) who were abused by older men while they were still under age but outwardly mature. At the time, they thought they were in a mature relationship; lots of them thought their boyfriend had "problems" and they were helping him. Later on in life they realised that they were being abused.

The Wizard from Milan · 02-20-2006, 11:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Gaffer

I disagree that sexual maturity is wholly determined by puberty. I think that a person's ability to make an informed choice about their sexual behaviour may well come well after they grow pubes.

I know many people (all girls) who were abused by older men while they were still under age but outwardly mature. At the time, they thought they were in a mature relationship; lots of them thought their boyfriend had "problems" and they were helping him. Later on in life they realised that they were being abused.

Preventing abuse is paramount. I strongly believe that the abuse of children and of teenagers is way more widespread than it is persently known (I think that the heterosexual family is where a lot of this undetected abuse goes on, because the heterosexual family is hardly ever scrutinized due to the "holy shield" of marriage).
I strongly, strongly believe in protecting children and teenagers from adults.
Yet I don't see any logical relationship between drawing a line at age x under which any sexual contact is rape and protecting young people from rape. There is just no such logical relationship. The line makes such that some consensual activity is punished and some abuse activity is condoned (although, hopefully the latter is covered by other statutes).
I do see such a logical relationship if you set the line at puberty (that is different for each person although it clusters around certain ages). I am not saying that drawing the line at puberty is the only protection that we should give to young people. To the contrary! I think that the statues against rape should be enforced way more vigorously.
What I don't agree with is to define rape any sexual activity that occurs in post-puberty people under age x. I think that you have to expect as part of their normal development that some people after puberty will engage in sexual exploration. I think that authomatically defining that as rape is just another type of abuse that adults do to young people.

The Gaffer · 02-20-2006, 11:44 AM

Yes, you are probably right there on both counts. Clearly, some people are OK to do it at 14 or 15 while others aren't.

However, how else could one make a workable law that took it into account? Would we have to get a driving test for our bits?

The Wizard from Milan · 02-20-2006, 03:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Gaffer

Yes, you are probably right there on both counts. Clearly, some people are OK to do it at 14 or 15 while others aren't.

However, how else could one make a workable law that took it into account? Would we have to get a driving test for our bits?

I am aware that implementation of an ethically correct system in such intricated problems is very difficult. And I have not given to the implementation sufficient thought yet. Difficulty in the implementation are not to be considered enough to put aside my points though.
Anyway, here is a first shot:
1. all involved minors should be given a state paid lawyers and a state paid psychologist who works independently of the family of origin
2. there should be no presumption of rape if the age difference is less than 3 years
3. there should always be presumption of rape if the allegations involve a parent and a child

02-12-2006, 08:19 PM	#21
The last sane person The Black Númenórean Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 6,773	Hah, I wish I could come out and be done with it. But if I do, I'll be given the good old boot and have all that would be my measley inheritance (none left, really, thanks to the misadventures of my brothers') and what love adn affection my family has will be tossed out the window. And right now, I cant afford that because I have no where to go and am trying to get through college,so, I keep my silence. __________________ Your children are not your children. They are the sons and daughters of Life's longing for itself. They come through you but not from you, And though they are with you yet they belong not to you. You may give them your love but not your thoughts, For they have their own thoughts. You may house their bodies but not their souls, For their souls dwell in the house of tomorrow, which you cannot visit, not even in your dreams.

02-13-2006, 12:43 PM	#24
Spock An enigma in a conundrum Join Date: Oct 1999 Posts: 6,476	LCOU, that's just confusing thanks for sharing that with us Yanks, etc. __________________ Vizzini: "HE DIDN'T FALL?! INCONCEIVABLE!!" Inigo: "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."

02-13-2006, 06:41 PM	#25
The last sane person The Black Númenórean Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 6,773	Well, I've tried to tentatively approach the subject with both my mother and father, and the vehemence tossed my way will knock me back to the beginning of the week. I dont think anything postive will be comming their way once this gets out. __________________ Your children are not your children. They are the sons and daughters of Life's longing for itself. They come through you but not from you, And though they are with you yet they belong not to you. You may give them your love but not your thoughts, For they have their own thoughts. You may house their bodies but not their souls, For their souls dwell in the house of tomorrow, which you cannot visit, not even in your dreams.

02-13-2006, 10:38 PM	#27
The last sane person The Black Númenórean Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 6,773	Do I know how that is. I cant be who I am around them. At least not fully. I'm hiding, and I hate that feeling. __________________ Your children are not your children. They are the sons and daughters of Life's longing for itself. They come through you but not from you, And though they are with you yet they belong not to you. You may give them your love but not your thoughts, For they have their own thoughts. You may house their bodies but not their souls, For their souls dwell in the house of tomorrow, which you cannot visit, not even in your dreams.

02-15-2006, 08:20 AM	#28
The Gaffer Elf Lord Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: In me taters Posts: 3,288	Obviously you know your parents best, but it might be that they are rebuffing subtle attempts to approach the topic in the hope that it will just go away and not be an issue. In other news, gay marriage is good for you: (story from BBC) http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/4708710.stm Last edited by The Gaffer : 02-15-2006 at 08:22 AM.

02-13-2006, 08:09 AM	#22
The Gaffer Elf Lord Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: In me taters Posts: 3,288	Sorry to hear that. It must be very frustrating, but I can well understand how the time has to be right for coming out to your family. If it's any consolation, I have seen several friends go through the process without adverse outcomes, contrary to their expectations.

02-13-2006, 06:58 PM	#26
Last Child of Ungoliant The Intermittent One Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: here and there Posts: 4,671	i was lucky in that my mum was quite pro-individuality, although i still had, and still have, my dad to deal with, who isn't really quite happy with me being who i am

02-16-2006, 02:27 PM	#29
The last sane person The Black Númenórean Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 6,773	Hah! Well, the article makes sense. It aint a walk in the park, and is certainly stressful to say the least. __________________ Your children are not your children. They are the sons and daughters of Life's longing for itself. They come through you but not from you, And though they are with you yet they belong not to you. You may give them your love but not your thoughts, For they have their own thoughts. You may house their bodies but not their souls, For their souls dwell in the house of tomorrow, which you cannot visit, not even in your dreams.

02-16-2006, 05:45 PM	#30
The last sane person The Black Númenórean Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 6,773	Never mind..... __________________ Your children are not your children. They are the sons and daughters of Life's longing for itself. They come through you but not from you, And though they are with you yet they belong not to you. You may give them your love but not your thoughts, For they have their own thoughts. You may house their bodies but not their souls, For their souls dwell in the house of tomorrow, which you cannot visit, not even in your dreams. Last edited by The last sane person : 02-19-2006 at 01:12 AM.

02-17-2006, 02:58 PM	#31
Last Child of Ungoliant The Intermittent One Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: here and there Posts: 4,671	er, no one's made any jokes...

02-19-2006, 01:12 AM	#32
The last sane person The Black Númenórean Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 6,773	Nvm it was deleted. __________________ Your children are not your children. They are the sons and daughters of Life's longing for itself. They come through you but not from you, And though they are with you yet they belong not to you. You may give them your love but not your thoughts, For they have their own thoughts. You may house their bodies but not their souls, For their souls dwell in the house of tomorrow, which you cannot visit, not even in your dreams.

02-19-2006, 11:15 AM	#34
The Wizard from Milan Elven Warrior Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 421	I think that the idea of "age of consent" is a totally ridiculus idea. Puberty, not law, decides when young people can and will be interested in having sex. I do support some restrictions on age difference to prevent rape of young people by people who have power Last edited by The Wizard from Milan : 02-19-2006 at 09:20 PM.

02-19-2006, 03:23 PM	#36
The last sane person The Black Númenórean Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 6,773	That is certainly not so where I came from. It's pretty much up to them where the money goes. I'm screwed. __________________ Your children are not your children. They are the sons and daughters of Life's longing for itself. They come through you but not from you, And though they are with you yet they belong not to you. You may give them your love but not your thoughts, For they have their own thoughts. You may house their bodies but not their souls, For their souls dwell in the house of tomorrow, which you cannot visit, not even in your dreams.

02-20-2006, 06:50 AM	#37
The Gaffer Elf Lord Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: In me taters Posts: 3,288	I disagree that sexual maturity is wholly determined by puberty. I think that a person's ability to make an informed choice about their sexual behaviour may well come well after they grow pubes. I know many people (all girls) who were abused by older men while they were still under age but outwardly mature. At the time, they thought they were in a mature relationship; lots of them thought their boyfriend had "problems" and they were helping him. Later on in life they realised that they were being abused. Last edited by The Gaffer : 02-20-2006 at 06:57 AM.

02-20-2006, 11:44 AM	#39
The Gaffer Elf Lord Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: In me taters Posts: 3,288	Yes, you are probably right there on both counts. Clearly, some people are OK to do it at 14 or 15 while others aren't. However, how else could one make a workable law that took it into account? Would we have to get a driving test for our bits?

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