What is death for Ainur?

[Olmer]

Originally Posted by CrazySquirrel

At least my theory explains all the facts.

Curious.
Would you delineate your theory more clearly, so we can see how it explains all the facts?

[CrazySquirrel]

Originally Posted by Olmer

Curious.
Would you delineate your theory more clearly, so we can see how it explains all the facts?

I have no time, sorry, to develop a whole theory of what was meant mostly as a joke.

As for all the facts, I meant:

1. Feanor's mother, Miriel, after birthing Feanor, decided to die - unheard of in Elvish history. Suicide.
2. Feanor's father, Finwe, re-married - unprecedented and never repeated deed.
3. Morgoth killed Finwe.
4. Feanor was the most crafty, gifted etc. of all the elves.
5. Feanor and most of his sons were cruel, obstinate and often outright evil, committing crimes unheard of before - kin-slaying, abandoning of his kin in dire situation, burning stolen ships, not to mention attempted rape (Luthien) and usurping Finrod's crown, and two other kin-slaying all done by his sons.
6. Galadriel, who had an uncanny abiity to sense evil (like in Annatar) never liked or trusted Feanor, even before his rebellion, she didn't give him even a strand of her hair, though he was her uncle.
7. Feanor's body disappeared as one of a maia.

Yes, my "theory" explains all these facts, while "natural combustion" doesn't.

[Landroval]

Originally Posted by CrazySquirrel

Normally the fëar of Elves or Men cannot return back to their own hröar or obtain new ones - the few known "returns" (Beren, Luthien, Glorfindel) were clearly exceptional and made by the power of the Valar.

It wasn't exceptional for the elves; those who return to the halls of Mandos are given the choice of remaining houseless, or to be "rehoused in the same form and shape as they had had" (Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth, 3rd note).

Originally Posted by CrazySquirrel

Gandalf's fëa went back to Valinor and got reincarnated in less than a month

No, he wasn't sent back by the valar:

Originally Posted by Letter #156 to R. Murray

He was sent by a mere prudent plan of the angelic Valar or governors; but Authority had taken up this plan and enlarged it, at the moment of its failure. 'Naked I was sent back - for a brief time, until my task is done'. Sent back by whom, and whence? Not by the 'gods' whose business is only with this embodied world and its time; for he passed 'out of thought and time'.

Originally Posted by CrazySquirrel

If I wished to step in Olmer's shoes I would say that perhaps Feanor was not Finwe's son, perhaps one of the Valar (Melkor?) was a bit too friendly with his mother. Might explain her strange "suicide" as well.

I disagree:

Originally Posted by Of the severance of marriage, HoME X

It is said that Miriel answered Mandos, saying: 'I came hither to escape from the body, and I do not desire ever to return to it. My life is gone out into Feanaro, my son. This gift I have given to him whom I loved, and I can give no more. Beyond Arda this may be healed, but not within it.' Then Mandos adjudged her innocent, deeming that she had died under a necessity too great for her to withstand.

It is worth mentioning that, in the same text, the valar (Yavanna in particular) attributes the death of Miriel to the _general_ corruption of hroa by the shadow.

Yes, my "theory" explains all these facts, while "natural combustion" doesn't.

There is a "natural (but slow) combustion" for the elven hroa, given the very fire of their spirit - a fact mentioned in Silmarillion chapt. 12 and in Of the laws and customs of the eldar, HoME X. Since Feanor's spirit had more fire than any other elf, there is nothing "maiar" about the burning of his body.

[Sister Golden Hair]

bump post

Testing.

[CrazySquirrel]

Wauu Landroval!

You are a learned one!

Pleasure to have you on the Moot. Welcome!

[Lefty Scaevola]

All the power of the Valar could not enitely destroy Morgoth even when he was captured and the end of the first age. As low as he had sunk, becoming locked in in the last body he had made, his spirit could not be obliterated and he is expected to return at some distant future. The Valar obliterated his bodys, puverzing it and scattering the dust. They dug out and likeiwse dealt with concentrations of his creative essence in the crust of the earth. They used all their power to thrust his spirit out of the creation, but still he is prphised to return for another war in the future. Apparently with enough time, and Ainu can come back from anything.

[CrazySquirrel]

Well Morgoth was a Vala and the strongest originally. Anyway Ainu's fear are really undestructible.
But I think it was made clear, that Sauron would be forever unable to make himself a new body?

About Gandalf, my point was that he was not self-resurrected, someone (well let it be Eru, not Valar) took care of his reincarnation.

[Landroval]

All the power of the Valar could not enitely destroy Morgoth even when he was captured and the end of the first age. As low as he had sunk, becoming locked in in the last body he had made, his spirit could not be obliterated and he is expected to return at some distant future

The valar can't destroy a spirit itself, indeed (no one can) - nor can they destroy that part of Melkor's essence which marred Arda. But he was utterly defeated in the war of wrath - and if the second prophecy of Mandos is true, he will be defeated again when he returns.

They used all their power to thrust his spirit out of the creation

It wasn't them who thrusted him - nor was it apparently their initiative (from Myths Transformed, HoME X):

We read that he was then thrust out into the Void. That should mean that he was put outside Time and Space, outside Ea altogether; but if that were so this would imply a direct intervention of Eru (with or without supplication of the Valar)

I think it was made clear, that Sauron would be forever unable to make himself a new body?

Indeed (same source as above):

Sauron was said to have fallen below the point of ever recovering, though he had previously recovered. What is probably meant is that a 'wicked' spirit becomes fixed in a certain desire or ambition, and if it cannot repent then this desire becomes virtually its whole being. But the desire may be wholly beyond the weakness it has fallen to, and it will then be unable to withdraw its attention from the unobtainable desire, even to attend to itself. It will then remain for ever in impotent desire or memory of desire.

P.S. Thanks for the nice words